Is Tribulation Synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week?

[Vic C.]

Oh I just can't resist! :D

When in the overall picture, do you see the trumpets happening? Where do you START the 70th week?

Right here:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

:yes

 

[lecoop]

Oh I just can't resist! :D

When in the overall picture, do you see the trumpets happening? Where do you START the 70th week?

Right here:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

:yes

He he!! Preter-Vic!!!

Coop

 

[Sinthesis]

Oh I just can't resist! :D

When in the overall picture, do you see the trumpets happening? Where do you START the 70th week?

Right here:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

:yes

He he!! Preter-Vic!!!

Coop

I'm sure Chiastic-Vic knows a thing or two or one about the organization of the book of Revelation.

 

[Vic C.]

I'm sure Chiastic-Vic knows a thing or two or one about the organization of the book of Revelation.

LOL.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matt. 10:39)

Coop doesn't like my "take" on Rev. chronology anyway.

side note: my previous comment to Coop was in reference to this part only:

Where do you START the 70th week?

 

[lecoop]

I'm sure Chiastic-Vic knows a thing or two or one about the organization of the book of Revelation.

LOL.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matt. 10:39)

Coop doesn't like my "take" on Rev. chronology anyway.

side note: my previous comment to Coop was in reference to this part only:

Where do you START the 70th week?

I knew that! :yes

Coop

 

[veteran]

The last symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9 is about events for the end of this world. The "one week" represents a seven years period per the Daniel prophecy. In the middle of the week (3 and 1/2 years), the "vile person" is to make a "league" in Jerusalem, and sometime thereafter he ends the daily sacrifice and oblation and sets up the abomination that maketh desolate in a temple in Jerusalem, an event Christ gave within His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13, which is for the end of this world prior to His coming.

So all those periods of 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years from Daniel, are all about the "great tribulation", a time of trouble on earth that has never been the likes before (Dan.12:1). The only monkey wrench thrown into that is what our Lord Jesus gave in Matth.24 that those days would be shortened for the sake of His elect.

But none of that changes the events to occur on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period, which is about Christ's coming to end the tribulation; which is also the time of resurrection of both the just and the unjust, and His wrath being poured out on the wicked to end their reign on earth.

 

[lecoop]

The last symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9 is about events for the end of this world. The "one week" represents a seven years period per the Daniel prophecy. In the middle of the week (3 and 1/2 years), the "vile person" is to make a "league" in Jerusalem, and sometime thereafter he ends the daily sacrifice and oblation and sets up the abomination that maketh desolate in a temple in Jerusalem, an event Christ gave within His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13, which is for the end of this world prior to His coming.

So all those periods of 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years from Daniel, are all about the "great tribulation", a time of trouble on earth that has never been the likes before (Dan.12:1). The only monkey wrench thrown into that is what our Lord Jesus gave in Matth.24 that those days would be shortened for the sake of His elect.

But none of that changes the events to occur on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period, which is about Christ's coming to end the tribulation; which is also the time of resurrection of both the just and the unjust, and His wrath being poured out on the wicked to end their reign on earth.

(Glad to see you back!!!) I agree with much of this, except your take on the 7th trumpet.

You are simply mistaken:

Can you answer? Why do you take the 42 months of the beast, the 3 1/2 years and the 1260 days of the woman, and the 42 months of trampling, and say they are all parallel, yet INSIST that the 1260 days of the two witnesses MUST RUN linearly as it is written? So you treat one of the five differently that the other four. Is that being consistant?

That is a MISTAKE: the discussion of the two witnesses is PARALLEL with all the other 3 1/2 year time frames, and as you said, equate to the last half of the week.

Therefore, SINCE IT IS PARALLEL, the chronology is as follows:

11:2 ...they tread under foot forty and two months. (begins days before the 7th trumpet)

11:3 ...they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (begins 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week)

11:14 two woes are past

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (divides the week into two halves - at the same moment the beast is in the holy place declaring He is God. - the abmination of desolation.)(this trumpet also marks the exact change in Milenniums: the old ends, the 1000 years of Christ begins! the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of our Lord! Not be conquering, but because Adam's lease runs OUT!)
(worship in heaven)

(parenthesis about the woman, and the dragon)

12:6 woman (those living in Judea) flees into the mountains. Is protected for 1260 days - time begins here at the midpoint.

Satan is cast OUT (John is still moments after the exact midpoint.) Since Adam's lease has run out, Satan has no more legal right to anything. Michael wastes no time in casting him down.

12:13, Dragon goes immediately after the woman
12:14 Woman is protected for 3 1/2 years (time starts at the midpoint/ 7th trumpet)
12: - to end Dragon undoubtedly enters the body of the beast, and goes to make war with the "remnant" of her seed - meaning those that believe in Jesus. Why "remnant?" Because the "mAin load" was removed at the rapture.




This is the intent of the author concerning the chronology.

The verses discussing the deeds of the two witnesses are parallel to all the other 3 1/2 year periods of time, and is therefore to be consided a parenthesis - WITH NO TIMING.

The REAL timing of these verses is parallel with the trampling, with the protection of the woman, and with the 42 months of the beast.

If you follow the chronology of Revelation, those days of great tribulation will be in FULL FORCE in Chapter 16, when God begins to pour our the vials of His wrath. Therefore, parallel passages could be:

Rev 11:6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 13: 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

REv 16:2
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

All these events will be happening around the same time: sometime in the middle of the last half of the week. The week will END with the 7th vial.

Coop

 

[veteran]

(Glad to see you back!!!) I agree with much of this, except your take on the 7th trumpet.

You are simply mistaken:

Can you answer? Why do you take the 42 months of the beast, the 3 1/2 years and the 1260 days of the woman, and the 42 months of trampling, and say they are all parallel, yet INSIST that the 1260 days of the two witnesses MUST RUN linearly as it is written? So you treat one of the five differently that the other four. Is that being consistant?

I never said the 1260 days testimony God's two witnesses give don't run parallel with the 42 months. Their witness is on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, aprox. 1260 days PRIOR to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. They are killed near the END of the tribulation, 3 and 1/2 days prior to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens in the same 'hour' when the 2nd woe ended. The idea is that within that same hour God's two witnesses resurrect, Christ's coming happens along with the resurrection, and the day of the Lord events. That's when the great earthquake associated with His coming happens in Jerusalem, and kills 7,000 there, which I believe are Christ's enemies.

That is a MISTAKE: the discussion of the two witnesses is PARALLEL with all the other 3 1/2 year time frames, and as you said, equate to the last half of the week.

You must have misunderstood, or been reading someone else's post. My argument was that the 7th trumpet does NOT happen in the middle of the "one week", or "exact midpoint", because that would leave no time for their 1260 days witness and the 2nd woe events.

Therefore, SINCE IT IS PARALLEL, the chronology is as follows:

11:2 ...they tread under foot forty and two months. (begins days before the 7th trumpet)

11:3 ...they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (begins 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week)

11:14 two woes are past

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (divides the week into two halves - at the same moment the beast is in the holy place declaring He is God. - the abmination of desolation.)(this trumpet also marks the exact change in Milenniums: the old ends, the 1000 years of Christ begins! the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of our Lord! Not be conquering, but because Adam's lease runs OUT!)

There YOU go again, misplacing the 7th trumpet to start in the middle of the "one week". That's WRONG. The 7th trumpet does NOT divide the symbolic "one week" in half. It's the false one coming to place the abomination that maketh desolate that divides the symbolic "one week" of Daniel, and that's the start of the 42 months or 1260 days, the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period ENDS that 42 months/1260 days period, which is the end of the tribulation, the end of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel.

 

[veteran]

(parenthesis about the woman, and the dragon)

12:6 woman (those living in Judea) flees into the mountains. Is protected for 1260 days - time begins here at the midpoint.

Satan is cast OUT (John is still moments after the exact midpoint.) Since Adam's lease has run out, Satan has no more legal right to anything. Michael wastes no time in casting him down.

12:13, Dragon goes immediately after the woman
12:14 Woman is protected for 3 1/2 years (time starts at the midpoint/ 7th trumpet)
12: - to end Dragon undoubtedly enters the body of the beast, and goes to make war with the "remnant" of her seed - meaning those that believe in Jesus. Why "remnant?" Because the "mAin load" was removed at the rapture.

That's actually the false Pre-Trib secret rapture theory you're preaching there. If you'll read Rev.12 as written, it gives a different picture of where the "woman" is...

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

So you can't just move that 1260 days period to happen at the start of the "one week". It begins when Satan is cast out, which is in the middle of the "one week", and that starts the countdown to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

 

[lecoop]

(Glad to see you back!!!) I agree with much of this, except your take on the 7th trumpet.

You are simply mistaken:

Can you answer? Why do you take the 42 months of the beast, the 3 1/2 years and the 1260 days of the woman, and the 42 months of trampling, and say they are all parallel, yet INSIST that the 1260 days of the two witnesses MUST RUN linearly as it is written? So you treat one of the five differently that the other four. Is that being consistant?

I never said the 1260 days testimony God's two witnesses give don't run parallel with the 42 months. Their witness is on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, aprox. 1260 days PRIOR to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. They are killed near the END of the tribulation, 3 and 1/2 days prior to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens in the same 'hour' when the 2nd woe ended. The idea is that within that same hour God's two witnesses resurrect, Christ's coming happens along with the resurrection, and the day of the Lord events. That's when the great earthquake associated with His coming happens in Jerusalem, and kills 7,000 there, which I believe are Christ's enemies.

How interesting that you say you don't but have just done it again! Simply amazing. But, maybe I just don't understand what you mean by parallel. Please answer these three simple questions:

1) Do the events of Chapter 14 come 42 months AFTER the second beast rises from the earth?

2) Does the flood that the dragon spews out, come 3 1/2 years AFTER the dragon is cast down in 12:13?

3) Does the war in heaven, come 1260 days AFTER the woman begins to flee to the wilderness?

Thanks

Coop

 

[lecoop]

(parenthesis about the woman, and the dragon)

12:6 woman (those living in Judea) flees into the mountains. Is protected for 1260 days - time begins here at the midpoint.

Satan is cast OUT (John is still moments after the exact midpoint.) Since Adam's lease has run out, Satan has no more legal right to anything. Michael wastes no time in casting him down.

12:13, Dragon goes immediately after the woman
12:14 Woman is protected for 3 1/2 years (time starts at the midpoint/ 7th trumpet)
12: - to end Dragon undoubtedly enters the body of the beast, and goes to make war with the "remnant" of her seed - meaning those that believe in Jesus. Why "remnant?" Because the "mAin load" was removed at the rapture.

That's actually the false Pre-Trib secret rapture theory you're preaching there. If you'll read Rev.12 as written, it gives a different picture of where the "woman" is...

You truly loose me there. I have never, not in 63 years, heard "rapture" associated with this verse. (except as I have defined the word remnant as those left behind). I agree fully with you, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the rapture. The woman is speaking of those living in Judea that have just seen the abomination and have fled into the wilderness. This may be toward Bazrah. But these are literal people FLEEING from the beast, just what Jesus told them to do. Perhaps, if you don't believe Remnant means those left behind - and now have turned to Jesus , by all means, explain.

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

So you can't just move that 1260 days period to happen at the start of the "one week". It begins when Satan is cast out, which is in the middle of the "one week", and that starts the countdown to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

You totally misunderstood what I wrote. I have moved nothing. It begins EXACTLY where John put it, right after the 7th trumpet, when Satan is cast out. And that is again, in the MIDDLE of the 70th week. Thanks for confirming that John is in the MIDDLE of the week here.
However, this is AFTER the 7th trumpet. Did you forget that the 7th trumpet is in the previous chapter? Who is now rearranging? John has the 7th trumpet sounding BEFORE the woman flees, exatly when it will happen for real, when it does happen. Both the woman fleeing AND Satan cast out, happens immediately following the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Coop

 

[veteran]

How interesting that you say you don't but have just done it again! Simply amazing. But, maybe I just don't understand what you mean by parallel. Please answer these three simple questions:

1) Do the events of Chapter 14 come 42 months AFTER the second beast rises from the earth?

2) Does the flood that the dragon spews out, come 3 1/2 years AFTER the dragon is cast down in 12:13?

3) Does the war in heaven, come 1260 days AFTER the woman begins to flee to the wilderness?

Thanks

Coop

I think you're just here to try and confuse people, it's becoming quite obvious now. I think you well know the mid point of Daniel's "one week" (7 years) is when the 42 months/1260 days period begins. The 1260 days period in Rev.12:6 is the same period of Rev.12:14. The Rev.12:6 verse is a forward look at what's to happen after the war in Heaven when Satan is cast down to the earth.

 

[veteran]

You truly loose me there. I have never, not in 63 years, heard "rapture" associated with this verse. (except as I have defined the word remnant as those left behind). I agree fully with you, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the rapture. The woman is speaking of those living in Judea that have just seen the abomination and have fled into the wilderness. This may be toward Bazrah. But these are literal people FLEEING from the beast, just what Jesus told them to do. Perhaps, if you don't believe Remnant means those left behind - and now have turned to Jesus , by all means, explain.

You've just done it again, wrongly associating the "Left-behind" idea with that remnant of Rev.12:17 that follows God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. THAT idea is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, because it supposes Christ's Church is raptured out while a remnant of believing Israel is Left-behind to go through the tribulation. That's also how the Pre-Trib theorists interpret the 144,000 of Rev.7, when instead Rev.7 includes the whole Church, the multitude of Gentiles being mentioned at Rev.7:9 forward as having come out of great tribulation where they had made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb. That last section of Rev.7 verses are totally omitted by the Pre-Trib secret rapture schools, because it shows those Gentile believers went through the tribulation too. The Rev.7 chapter is about those whom God seals with His seal in prep to go through the tribulation.

Haven't you ever studied enough of the Old Testament to know that when Christ speaks of a 'remnant' of His, it means His elect that are not deceived? There has always... been an elect remnant of Israel that were not deceived when the rest of Israel fell away, and that remnant still exists today, even as Paul showed in Romans 11:5, calling them "a remnant according to the election of grace."

How is it you believe part of Christ's Church could be raptured out without that elect remnant of Israel? It's clear you're on the Pre-Trib secret rapture theory which is the only school that preaches that remnant would be Left-behind, and that's a doctrine of men not written in God's Word. When Christ comes, it's to gather His whole... Church, and especially that believing 'remnant' of Rev.12:17, His elect of Israel. What does that mean for the Gentile believers in His Church? It means they too will go through that 1260 days like that remnant of Israel will. We all are going to go through the tribulation, and our Lord Jesus expects us to overcome it through Him, not try to escape it.

 

[veteran]

You totally misunderstood what I wrote. I have moved nothing. It begins EXACTLY where John put it, right after the 7th trumpet, when Satan is cast out. And that is again, in the MIDDLE of the 70th week. Thanks for confirming that John is in the MIDDLE of the week here.
However, this is AFTER the 7th trumpet. Did you forget that the 7th trumpet is in the previous chapter? Who is now rearranging? John has the 7th trumpet sounding BEFORE the woman flees, exatly when it will happen for real, when it does happen. Both the woman fleeing AND Satan cast out, happens immediately following the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Coop

Yeah you have moved the 7th trumpet; you're trying to MOVE the time of the 7th trumpet to the middle of Daniel's "one week", when Scripture shows it happens at the very end of Daniel's "one week". And nor did Christ give John to put the 7th trumpet in the middle either. So obviously, I have not confirmed any of that mid-point idea you've said, nor have I agreed with that idea one iota. If you say I have, then you're telling a lie.

 

[Andrew]

(Glad to see you back!!!) I agree with much of this, except your take on the 7th trumpet.

You are simply mistaken:

Can you answer? Why do you take the 42 months of the beast, the 3 1/2 years and the 1260 days of the woman, and the 42 months of trampling, and say they are all parallel, yet INSIST that the 1260 days of the two witnesses MUST RUN linearly as it is written? So you treat one of the five differently that the other four. Is that being consistant?

I never said the 1260 days testimony God's two witnesses give don't run parallel with the 42 months. Their witness is on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, aprox. 1260 days PRIOR to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. They are killed near the END of the tribulation, 3 and 1/2 days prior to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens in the same 'hour' when the 2nd woe ended. The idea is that within that same hour God's two witnesses resurrect, Christ's coming happens along with the resurrection, and the day of the Lord events. That's when the great earthquake associated with His coming happens in Jerusalem, and kills 7,000 there, which I believe are Christ's enemies.

How interesting that you say you don't but have just done it again! Simply amazing. But, maybe I just don't understand what you mean by parallel. Please answer these three simple questions:

1) Do the events of Chapter 14 come 42 months AFTER the second beast rises from the earth?

2) Does the flood that the dragon spews out, come 3 1/2 years AFTER the dragon is cast down in 12:13?

3) Does the war in heaven, come 1260 days AFTER the woman begins to flee to the wilderness?

Thanks

Coop

Q-1. A - No.
Q-2. A - No.
Q-3. A - No.

 

[lecoop]

How interesting that you say you don't but have just done it again! Simply amazing. But, maybe I just don't understand what you mean by parallel. Please answer these three simple questions:

1) Do the events of Chapter 14 come 42 months AFTER the second beast rises from the earth?

2) Does the flood that the dragon spews out, come 3 1/2 years AFTER the dragon is cast down in 12:13?

3) Does the war in heaven, come 1260 days AFTER the woman begins to flee to the wilderness?

Thanks

Coop

I think you're just here to try and confuse people, it's becoming quite obvious now. I think you well know the mid point of Daniel's "one week" (7 years) is when the 42 months/1260 days period begins. The 1260 days period in Rev.12:6 is the same period of Rev.12:14. The Rev.12:6 verse is a forward look at what's to happen after the war in Heaven when Satan is cast down to the earth.

No Veteran, I am not here to confuse. Please bear with me, and you will see. So I can guess your answer to all three of these questions is NO?

Concerning chapter 12:
So if, as you say, the 3 1/2 year period of time is THE SAME as the 1260 day time, then you clearly understand that verse 7 is NOT 1260 days after verse 6. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 7 is on the FIRST day of the 1260, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 1260 days between these verses.

I can guess then, that you clearly understand that verse 15 is NOT 3 1/2 years AFTER verse 14. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 3 1/2 years, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 3 1/2 years between these verses.

Can I get a clarification from you on these? Do you agree?

And again I can guess that you do NOT believe that 13:6 is 42 months AFTER 13:5. Right?
Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 42 months, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 42 months between these verses. Agreed?

You understand that this time frame is written, but NOT CARRIED THROUGH to fulfillment between these verses.
So in EVERY case, in chapters 12 and 13, the verse AFTER the 3 1/2 year time frame (or 1260 days or 42 months) does NOT chronologically follow that time frame. So when John mentions a time frame such as 1260 days or 42 months, he mentions them at the proper place in his narrative WHERE THEY ARE TO START. And certainly NOT where they end.

But, you insist that the verses following the 1260 days of the two witnesses,

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
15 Then the seventh angel sounded:

ARE chronologically 1260 days after verse 3. So, again I wonder WHY you are not consistant?

The truth is, The sounding of the 7th trumpet happens right after the BEGINNING of the 1260 days, NOT THE END. It is to be understood exactly the same as ALL OTHER mentions of the 3 1/2 years.

My last three posts have been solely to get you to see this point.

So verses 4-13 in chapter 11, HAVE NO CHRONOLOGY. They are there ONLY for information. The 1260 days are there ONLY for information. They are NOT Fulfilled in this chapter. Indeed, they are not fullfilled unto ALL the other mentions of the 3 1/2 years are fulfilled, which is at the 7th vial. That is the end of the week, and that is where ALL these parallel passages of time END.

Therefore, YOUR ENTIRE UNDERSTANDING of the 7th trumpet is faulty. You have it 1260 days PAST when it really is sounded.

The Rev.12:6 verse is a forward look at what's to happen after the war in Heaven when Satan is cast down to the earth

You have missed John's chronology again! The revelation 12:6 verse is EXACTLY WHERE IT BELONGS, for it is those living in Judea that have just seen the abomination (it happened on earth at the same moment that the 7th trumpet sounded in heaven) and they are FLEEING - exactly what Jesus TOLD them to do. John is right AT THE MIDPOINT here in these chapters, so the 1260 days will begin RIGHT where John mentions it. The 1260 days for the two witnesses will begin EXACTLY where they are mentioned, which will be 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

Next, the war in heaven is EXACTLY where it is suppose to be. The Kingdoms of this world pass to our Lord, at the midpoint of the week, and at the 7th trumpet. You see, there is NO NEED to move anything. John wrote them in the exact order in which they will happen.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

You've just done it again, wrongly associating the "Left-behind" idea with that remnant of Rev.12:17 that follows God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. THAT idea is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, because it supposes Christ's Church is raptured out while a remnant of believing Israel is Left-behind to go through the tribulation. That's also how the Pre-Trib theorists interpret the 144,000 of Rev.7, when instead Rev.7 includes the whole Church, the multitude of Gentiles being mentioned at Rev.7:9 forward as having come out of great tribulation where they had made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb. That last section of Rev.7 verses are totally omitted by the Pre-Trib secret rapture schools, because it shows those Gentile believers went through the tribulation too. The Rev.7 chapter is about those whom God seals with His seal in prep to go through the tribulation.

Veteran, you certainly have a HARD TIME understanding what I write. Is my writing really that confusing?

Surely you DO NOT BELIEVE that all humans on earth will go UP in the rapture - DO YOU?
So if all humans do NOT go up, the it MUST BE that some humans are LEFT BEHIND.

Surely that is not a hard concept to follow. I do believe that the rapture will be PRE trib. I an convinced that both John and the Holy Spirit believe it too. So my point is, SOME of those NON-born again people that were left behind (BECAUSE they were not born again) turn to God and become Christians AFTER the rapture (pretrib) had taken place. They are STILL a part of the body of Christ. But they are only a remnant of that body, because the MAIN LOAD left before the week started. WHY did they leave before the week started? Because they had NO appointment with God's wrath, and God's wrath is seen at the very beginning of the week.

Therefore, I did NOT "wrongly associating," I CORRECTLY associated. They missed the rapture. Therefore they were LEFT BEHIND. But then, they turned to God and became a part of His body. Not a difficult concept. Yes, CERTAINLY this is pretrib. So is God. That is why He said we have no appointment with His wrath. That is why He said in Heb. 9, that He will appear ONLY to those that look for Him. How can ANYONE equate that to "every eye will see Him?" Clearly this is a DIFFERENT coming. If you please, a SECRET coming; where He appears ONLY to those that are looking for Him. So, where does that leave you?

it supposes Christ's Church is raptured out while a remnant of believing Israel is Left-behind to go through the tribulation.

Did you not read?

Dan 12
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

It is CALLED the 70th week of Daniel. the main purpose is to drive (the Jewish remnant) to the point where they have NO HOPE but to call on God. And that is when Jesus will appear in Glory, and every eye will see Him, EVEN those that pierced Him. So the truth is, OF COURSE the church is raptured out, and the remnant is left. THAT IS GOD"S PLAN.

That's also how the Pre-Trib theorists interpret the 144,000 of Rev.7, when instead Rev.7 includes the whole Church, the multitude of Gentiles being mentioned at Rev.7:9 forward as having come out of great tribulation where they had made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb. That last section of Rev.7 verses are totally omitted by the Pre-Trib secret rapture schools, because it shows those Gentile believers went through the tribulation too. The Rev.7 chapter is about those whom God seals with His seal in prep to go through the tribulation.

You will find I am only a part of the Holy Spirit school. Classical pretrib is wrong in MANY areas. Here is one of them: that HUGE crowd seen in chapter 7 IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH. Every word about them screams "church" EXCEPT two words, "great tribulation." These words do NOT mean that these are folks saved during those days of great tribulation that follow the abomination. In truth, John has not yet started the week, much less got to the second half. NO, this great crowd did NOT come from the future, from any part of the 70th week. They are raptured BEFORE the week begins. All John is telling us is that at the time of rapture, people will be dying for the word of God around the world. ("Great tribulation" is NOT a title for the last half of the week. These two words have other conotations.) Please note that these two words "great tribulation" are written together in an earlier chapter of Revelation that has NOTHING to do with the 70th week. It was to one of the seven churches. Yes, chapter 7 IS about the sealing of the 144,000 which MUST be done before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week. BUT: two things must happen: the rapture MUST take place here too, for God's wrath will begin with the trumpets.

Haven't you ever studied enough of the Old Testament to know that when Christ speaks of a 'remnant' of His, it means His elect that are not deceived? There has always... been an elect remnant of Israel that were not deceived when the rest of Israel fell away, and that remnant still exists today, even as Paul showed in Romans 11:5, calling them "a remnant according to the election of grace."

The "remnant written in chapter 12, are "the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (NKJV) These are not Jews, they are Gentile believers! The Jews have not yet turned to Jesus. They have not yet seen the nail holes in his hands. So there are TWO remnants in Revelation, one Gentile and one Jewish.

 

[lecoop]

You totally misunderstood what I wrote. I have moved nothing. It begins EXACTLY where John put it, right after the 7th trumpet, when Satan is cast out. And that is again, in the MIDDLE of the 70th week. Thanks for confirming that John is in the MIDDLE of the week here.
However, this is AFTER the 7th trumpet. Did you forget that the 7th trumpet is in the previous chapter? Who is now rearranging? John has the 7th trumpet sounding BEFORE the woman flees, exatly when it will happen for real, when it does happen. Both the woman fleeing AND Satan cast out, happens immediately following the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Coop

Yeah you have moved the 7th trumpet; you're trying to MOVE the time of the 7th trumpet to the middle of Daniel's "one week", when Scripture shows it happens at the very end of Daniel's "one week". And nor did Christ give John to put the 7th trumpet in the middle either. So obviously, I have not confirmed any of that mid-point idea you've said, nor have I agreed with that idea one iota. If you say I have, then you're telling a lie.

Here is your quote:

"It begins when Satan is cast out, which is in the middle of the "one week"

You are saying that in chapter 12, in John's narrative, he is AT THE MIDPOINT [middle] of the week when Satan is cast out. IS that not found in 12:7? Or am I reading something into your quote that you did not mean?

You are confused when you say "scripture shows it happens at the very end" of the week. ALL the events in chapters 11-13 are MIDPOINT events, except for the discussion of the two witnesses, the prophecies given after the 7th trumpet has sounded and the discussion in chapter 13 AFTER the 42 months is mentioned.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

(Glad to see you back!!!) I agree with much of this, except your take on the 7th trumpet.


I never said the 1260 days testimony God's two witnesses give don't run parallel with the 42 months. Their witness is on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, aprox. 1260 days PRIOR to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. They are killed near the END of the tribulation, 3 and 1/2 days prior to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens in the same 'hour' when the 2nd woe ended. The idea is that within that same hour God's two witnesses resurrect, Christ's coming happens along with the resurrection, and the day of the Lord events. That's when the great earthquake associated with His coming happens in Jerusalem, and kills 7,000 there, which I believe are Christ's enemies.

How interesting that you say you don't but have just done it again! Simply amazing. But, maybe I just don't understand what you mean by parallel. Please answer these three simple questions:

1) Do the events of Chapter 14 come 42 months AFTER the second beast rises from the earth?

2) Does the flood that the dragon spews out, come 3 1/2 years AFTER the dragon is cast down in 12:13?

3) Does the war in heaven, come 1260 days AFTER the woman begins to flee to the wilderness?

Thanks

Coop

Q-1. A - No.
Q-2. A - No.
Q-3. A - No.

Thank God, someone here can answer questions correctly!!! Thanks, Andrew!!

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Like I said Coop, your stuck in a chronology that you have no clue about. What's worse you have no intention on getting yourself unstuck. You are dealing with sacred texts and you behave like a man who stands on hallowed ground and refuses to remove his shoes.
If you really want answers I suggest you strip naked throw ashes on your head stick your nose to the floor and get far more humble.
This is the testimony of Jesus Christ God Almighty and I not pretend any man has the right to treat it any other way than utterly HOLY.
Your pride stands out to the point that you make a hypocrite of yourself when you claim that "Other people" in this forum are all about voicing their theories; that's describes you to the "T".

I'll say this again, these are sacred texts that happen to be the Testimony of Jesus Christ and the plan of His salvation, which happens to bring every soul into the picture. Be careful how you treat this, and more importantly, how you treat your fellow man.