Is TULIP biblical?

[jasonc]

Total Depravity and Prevenient Grace - Kenneth J. Collins | Free

Wesley describes total depravity as "a want of original righteousness," and also in terms of a "natural propensity to sin.” Luther, Calvin and George Croft Cell

www.biblicaltraining.org

Modern arminist position in that .

.

 

[Free]

No Free,
I agree completely with you that the work of salvation from beginning to end is by grace alone offered by God alone.
What I disagree with is how that grace is offered by God and how God Himself expects it to be received by sinners.

If it's all of God's grace from beginning to end, then he necessarily must pull at us and start working on our hearts if we are even to be able to understand the gospel and respond.

I am very busy tonight my friend and it will take me a few days to find posts by those who I have spoken to on this website proving they believe children are born without any consciousness of God from birth and unless God choose an individual for no understandable earthly reason, God just simply created such a person to destroy them.

And, yet, you say you completely agree "that the work of salvation from beginning to end is by grace alone offered by God alone." If that is the case, then how is it not God's choosing who gets saved?

I hope you understand that the "fairy dust" comment was my own sarcasm over my frustration without write heresy. We'll just call it an "unseen pull" by God upon man that can't before against.

Is it completely a work of God or is it not?

 

[Free]

TULIP is not biblical.

It does stand for five things, so which part of it?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm more of it's not a hill to die on.

Unless it's Calvary.

who hate me without cause. Psa.35:19 ESV
But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’ Jn.15:25 ESV

Two Witnesses:
At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deu.17:6

and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth; Rev.11:3 YLT

God gives Himself to the repentant and they testify of of the Messiahs' ministry on earth, which (possibly) lasted 3 1/2 years.

It's the extremes that j have a problem with.

Everyone does. You think John the baptizer had to eat bugs and wear sackcloth? He was a Levite Priest. His father served in the temple when he was born. The best Israel had to offer, the first fruits belonged to Gods' priests.
John understood everything he owned belonged to God. He thought of hiself as poor for our Lords' sake,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mt.5:3 KJV

John followed God,

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich. 2Cor.8:9

We can"t give God anything, because when there was no food Jesus had a monster barbecue where thousands of people were fed and took doggie bags home. Twice.

Btw journeyman you are calling a commentary you posted in a jw thread ,a heretic .

Yup a puritan are as that group we got our Thanksgiving from are five pointers .

God does want us to share our turkey sandwiches with others, but imo He cares more about things people believe about Him.

Mathew Henry was a nonconformists by demonation but held to the five points .

And I highlighted Henreys' error and Guziks' error and guess what? You completely ignored every scripture I posted showing why those men are wrong.

Unless you go back and and deal with the scripture I posted proving them wrong I won't respond to you again in this thread.

I love you bro, but I'm done with this, "Paul said Jesus became a curse for us because if He came to judge sinners they would have been fried for calling him accursed. For bearing false witnees against thier neighbor. For sinning against Jesus in this world. It can only be forgiven until unrepentant sinners are standing before him in judgment find out they were sitting against the Holy Spirit,

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mt.12:32 NIV

"But Jesus said "Nobody can come to Me unless lMy Father draws Him."

 

[Free]

@Christempowered
The Bible does not say, "People are born spiritually dead." No person who ever walked on this earth was "born spiritually dead."

Job 15:14 What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
Job 15:15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
Job 15:16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water! (ESV)

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (ESV)

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him. (ESV)

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (ESV)

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (ESV)

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— (ESV)

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
...
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (ESV)

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (ESV)

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)

It seems to me that the Bible does indeed teach that all but Adam and Eve were born spiritually dead, which is why humans are continually called corrupt, among other things. Those who are not saved are "of the flesh" and cannot please God and are "by nature children of wrath."

By Iron willed belief in the Power of God

So then salvation isn't a work of God from start to finish.

 

[Free]

I'm referring to 1) any congregation that teaches people have no way of responding to Gods' grace using only the common sense He created all people with.

Please understand I'm saying Jesus came to us voluntarily, to reason with us.

If, in our unregenerate state, in the flesh, we cannot understand spiritual things, how is it that Jesus came to reason with us? What do you mean by that ?

And 2) any congregation that teaches Jesus died "in place of sinners."

Please understand that I'm saying "Jesus died as a sinner", not "in place of sinners."

Jesus died as a sinner only in the sense that all our sins were placed on him, which means he died in our place to avert the wrath of God. Those who teach penal substitutionary atonement teach truth, because that is the gospel, that is the good news.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If it's all of God's grace from beginning to end, then he necessarily must pull at us and start working on our hearts if we are even to be able to understand the gospel and respond.

Free
I'm not disagreeing with that. We as fathers have a mind from God that humanly understands just a little of how our Father feels about us. We don't abandon our children when they commit sin. We try to correct them or help them in some way. Brother you and I both know how painful it must be for the parents of a we were child . Our hearts are sick over it.

Our Savior was born as a man under law, as every member of His own church. That is, in the "womans role" of His Fathers' congregation. Believing men + believing women = the Bride of Christ. Gods' wife.

And often mothers have a softer heart than fathers do when their children are absent. I think a womans heart aches for her children in a way we as men can"t fully understand. We really don't know what labor pains feel like.

Unto the woman He said, 'Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception in sorrow dost thou bear children and toward thy husband is thy desire and he doth rule over thee.' Gen.3:16 YLT

It almost sound like God is telling us women have pain when giving birth and their sorrow will be multiplied as they watch their children grow.

Free:
And, yet, you say you completely agree "that the work of salvation from beginning to end is by grace alone offered by God alone." If that is the case, then how is it not God's choosing who gets saved?

It is His choosing bro. He said He chose believers. He decided from the beginning to save believers and gave us more than enough reasons to believe in Him,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My Word. Isa.66:2 KJV

Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. Heb.1:1 NLT

Having yet therefore One Son, His Well Beloved, he sen thim also last unto them, saying,They will reverence My Son. Mk.12:6 KJV

Lets really take this to heart.

How would you feel as a father if your son or daughter went around only doing good, only helping the needy, telling them about how great her Father is and anyone who wants to know her Dad can ask forgiveness with nothing of value to offer and be forgiven.....

But then a mob who didn't like what your daughter said about mending their ways took your child into a building, mocked and tortured him for hours and then crucified him by the side of a road leaving him their to die?

Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
They said to him, "He will utterly destroy those evil men! Then he will lease the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his portion at the harvest." Mt.21:40-41

Yeah..I can identufy as a father with thar, because I'd hunt those men down and take a flamethrower to them. But wair, the there's a contradiction,

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied...Isa.53:11

Maybe our Father was satisfied by the patient conduct His Son showed people who deserved to die. Maybe God was pleased that His Son didn't take a flamethrower to sinners who abused Him in ways that would make us puke.

Is it completely a work of God or is it not?

I would have taken those men to a warehouse with 3 items. A hammer, a pail of pliers and a blow torch.
So yes, I'm in full agreement,

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa.55:8 KJV

Free,
If you still want me to, I will go back about a year to find those posts I was speaking about, but they are no different than what is hapoening right here.
Regardless, if you don't comment on the scripture I just cited and explain why you disagree with how the Father, Son, Prophets and Apostles interpreted the death of Jesus so that no other passage refutes it, I will not respond again. I will find those other posts, but it's a wSte of my time.
I feel like Martha now because I took my clothes out of the dryer for hours ago and they're still on the couch wrinkled because I haven't folded them. Thank you Lord for my clothes, but I hate folding.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Ok Free
I see 2 more posts you have written while I was answering your other post. I will answer then both point by point if I can last that long before I need sleep, but I must fold my clothes now.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Job 15:14 What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
Job 15:15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
Job 15:16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water! (ESV)

Ok 4 very important things here. 1) Eliphaz is soeaking. 2) Eliphaz thinks Job is being punished for something he did wrong. 3) I say Eliphaz is wrong because 4) God said Eliphaz is wrong,

And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept lest I deal with you after your folly,in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. Jb.42:7-8

In other words, get the self righteous log out your eye before telling Job about his speck.....or else you'll feel like Dorothy dropped a house on you.

Here's something very strange about this passage because Job is about a man who "heard about God from somewhere and believed in God because of what he heard and worshipped God just by what he heard about God.
But then, someone challenged Job as a real believer. Some Accuser came along and said the only reason Job believes in God is because God blessed Job with milk and honey. Baby food. Job had a bad say once when someone polished off the icecream.

so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. Jb.1:3

[now if there were kings on earth in those days Job would be a king, but I think when Joe's three friends start mocking him one of them says "You sat in the gate."

In Jewish culture, only the wisest men in the community sat at the gate where they discussed what they believed about God and did so for the welfare of the community. So these boys better pray the Spirit of God is leading them.

Hopefully Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite didn't know Job from handing out advice about God the Orthodox Jewush Way.
That would be like people following the advice of men considered to be the greatest Rabbis' of their day and finding out later they were following blind men.

But here's what's really interesting. This man Job knew God better than anyone before the wheels went off the rail.
He had the life people dream about...money...fame, stuff that can go to a guys' headstuff God blessed us with that demons want us to misuse,

And saith unto Him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Mt.4:5

That's real news, because no credible source in scripture says God ever gave up control over this planet to anyone without holding that man responsible for his own sin.

When God has blessed someone and that someone start saying,
The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” Dan.4:30
Who knows what could hapoen if we started thinking that way. God might turn i'll send cows or some thing. L O L! Show us what real animals we are!!! wouldn't that be funny.

for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. Lk.4:5

Anyway, since Jesus said the devil never tells the truth, it seems only satan and those who believe his lies also believe a pond full of chemicals was struck by lightning and out walked Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking.

That's really some tale and what's really sad is many kids today believe unprovable non-sense instead of you and I see every day, which is our lineage vack ad dar as recorded history.
I can't trace my heritage back that far because I don't think I'm related to any Caesars, but the Buble says my ancestory began with Adam and Eve and I got no problem standing up to any atheist in a debate over that.

I know a pastor who made himself and our Father look foolish in a voluntary Creation/Evolution Debate in front of a classroom of high school students.

That pastor made one mistake. He allowed himself to get knocked off his foundation, hy arguing Creation from the atheists standard of evidence.

And the standard of evidence for science to prove anything they say is...
NOTHING, Because science can't PROVE ANYTING.

Look it up. It's true and knowing that, I would re-school my child after school. No need to take a kid out of public school science class.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm sorry I'm rambling. I'm tired but coherant. I still have laundry to fold, I had another conversation with someone instead of folding laundry and now it seems like I'm rambling.

Listen Free
I don't want you to chuck your beliefs. All I want you to do is set aside everything you've ever been told about God. Don't listen to me. Just read the NT as if you were reading it for the very first time. All you know is that it talks about a guy name Jesus who talked about God and had some followers.
That's all bro. Just by the intelligence you or me or anyone who undersrands how to read and understand the meaning of words can. Think of the NT as a fictional story where you might be reading a novel and imagine yourself as one of the characters in the book.

Imagine king Solomon in all his splendor, or his father king David, the greatest king Israel ever had.....untill the king of kings rode in on a donkey.

Which reminds ME

Job says some thing kind of strange when he sees God. He says,

I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW mine eye seeth Thee
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Jb.42:5-6

He Sees just how Amazing God is. Isn't that what Job is saying?

And watch this,

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

It sounds like Isaiah is saying, Hey God, who's going to believe this story? whi are You going to show your self to?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

See to me it's like Isaiah is saying God blinds people who won't humble themselves before HIS ONE AND ONY SON KING of all kings no one in Heaven or on Earth Higher BECAUSE he's sitting on the Throne of Our Father and the only thing above that is His Meecy Seat.

That's because in Gods' Temple, His Throne set on Moses law and kills sinners who know what the law says.

He put His Mercy above His Law or I would be dead forever! How about you bro?

Hey watch this,

These things said Esaias, w when he hen he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Jn.12:38-41

Hmm. Ok. Isaiah quoted Isa.53:1 "when he saw The Messiahs' glory.....when???

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Isa.6:1

Isaiah then has a similar reaction to Job. He feels filthy.

I think it's possibly they felt dirty because being men like us they sometimes complain about things instead of having to be right. Jesus had the Lefal Right by what Moses said to kill His enemies.
But Hemade a promise to the world and that's how I heardabout Him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Im tired. Goodnight Free and may God continue to bless you in all ways and everyother mod and non-member reDing this.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (ESV)

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him. (ESV)

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (ESV)

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (ESV)

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— (ESV)

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
...
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (ESV)

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (ESV)

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)

It seems to me that the Bible does indeed teach that all but Adam and Eve were born spiritually dead, which is why humans are continually called corrupt, among other things. Those who are not saved are "of the flesh" and cannot please God and are "by nature children of wrath."


So then salvation isn't a work of God from start to finish.

ok look if you cant examine what im saying for yiurself, just so yiu know you agree witbh what you yourself have examined and not what someone esle told you what it means. All Im saying is you cam reac for yourself. not correcting anyo more typos gnight

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1Cor.12:3

All day long my enemies taunt me; those who rail against me use my name as a curse. [Psa.102:8 NIV

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being [b{made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13[/b]

We know this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24 NIV

Who are you mocking? Isa.57:4 NIV

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Free
Have yiou read post #27, 29 & onward. If so does it make any sense to you?
Please try to see the passages I cited with an open mind. In fact, just look at the scripture I cited. Don't read my comments at all Just look at the scripture I cited like it's the first time you read it.

 

[Free]

Free
Have yiou read post #27, 29 & onward. If so does it make any sense to you?
Please try to see the passages I cited with an open mind. In fact, just look at the scripture I cited. Don't read my comments at all Just look at the scripture I cited like it's the first time you read it.

I have read them and honestly, I don’t understand what any of it has to do with this discussion.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I have read them and honestly, I don’t understand what any of it has to do with this discussion.

Then nevermind

 

[Free]

Then nevermind

As to the topic of this thread, what is it exactly about TULIP that you take issue with?

 

[JLB]

It does stand for five things, so which part of it?

All of the doctrine of TULIP as taught by Calvinist’s is false… being promoted from an unbiblical foundation which denies that man has the ability to choose.


Surely you understand this?


Or, maybe you can give a scripture with the phrase … Totally Depraved or Unconditional Election or Limited Atonement?






JLB

 

[Christ_empowered]

I also look around me and I see unlikely people getting saved and transformed by the renewal of their minds…
While many church people even church leaders fall away turn apostate lead others astray etc.


Wheat and the tares. Did the wheat pray more fervently?
Jesus Christ says the sheep know His voice. He also says to preach the good news all over the world .

Cast a wide net…scoop up the elect all over the globe …

 

[JLB]

I also look around me and I see unlikely people getting saved and transformed by the renewal of their minds…
While many church people even church leaders fall away turn apostate lead others astray etc.


Wheat and the tares. Did the wheat pray more fervently?
Jesus Christ says the sheep know His voice. He also says to preach the good news all over the world .

Cast a wide net…scoop up the elect all over the globe …

Judas Iscariot is the Wrecking Ball to TULIP.