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Is TULIP biblical?

A while back, I wrote a post titled: God’s Will For Your Life Is That You Would Suffer. The heart of the piece dealt with three aspects of the Will of God and built a theology showing that indeed, God does will that we would suffer. These aforementioned aspects included God’s Decretive Will (His decreed or sovereign will), His Preceptive Will (His revealed will in the Scriptures), and God’s Permissive Will (His allowance of evil, and so forth). In the piece itself, I demonstrated that it is the case, but not necessarily how and why. Stemming from this post, a dear friend asked a good question: When God sovereignly ordains something against His moral will via His permissive will, why would I say, in effect, He desires this to happen? Why would He desire our suffering?

In essence, the logic didn’t quite make sense to see that God would actively cause something to come to pass that violates His revealed will. This is a similar question to the Arminian’s, save the large difference in taking it a step further to ask how such a thing is morally good. For our purposes, this touches heavily on His permissive will – so I want to take some time to explain this more clearly and also provide answers as to why God would desire something, like suffering at the hands of persecutors, yet simultaneously ordain the persecutor to rise against His people. I use suffering as an example because it was the topic of the previous post, as well as the context the question came forth from.
I believe one of the ways we tend to get lost in this is by framing things purely in terms of His “allowing” these things to happen. By virtue of the fact that He has a sovereign will that He exercises freely, He actively brings all things that come to pass. The idea behind this is that God, in exercising His right over all things to do with them as He pleases, does so in utter perfection. In that, God is not passive, but active. It is not enough to say God merely permits the evils of this world to happen (consider Job 1:8). We must be consistent in acknowledging that all things come from His hand – He ordains whatsoever comes to pass and in so doing, He desires it to happen (Pro. 16:33; Eph. 1:11).
Naturally, when you raise such a proposition, the problem of evil comes up (i.e. how can God actively ordain all things, such as for sin to come into the world, and yet be without fault?). Most plainly stated: when God handles anything, it is by virtue of His being, not evil or wicked. He is the fountainhead of all goodness, indeed, the very source of our understanding of good. What then flows from His character, being, and deeds, is utterly and wholly good. The inherit problem in this is not that I have said He is good, but that many cannot reconcile how all His deeds can be good, if it is said that such deeds are perceived as evil in the human mind. I believe the misconception of our Arminian friends in this is that God is inadvertently defined in terms of perceived goodness, rather than actual goodness being defined in terms of God.
God is good, therefore, goodness bears qualitative likeness to God’s own being and flows from his essence. The clearest place one sees this is in His creative genius in Genesis 1-2, and it is no small wonder why the very first words of the Bible set up this portrait for the Christian. Straight away, the Scriptures propose the existence of God, demonstrate His complete mastery over all things by virtue of the fact that He speaks them into existence, and then displays all of His works to be good. In each instance of Creation, God brings something into existence, shapes it for His purposes, and then calls it good. When He has completed His work, He steps back, delights in it, and declares it all to be very good.
The ultimate proposition of the Scriptures then is that whatever God does, it is good. This should be an uncontroversial statement for those who claim Christ. What we need to do then is turn the corner, and simply see that God does many things that don’t align with our initial perception. This does not then flip the former notion of God’s goodness on its head, but rather, reveals a deficiency in our own minds in comprehending His goodness in and through such things. Yet what I would propose here is that the deficiency is not only in the inadvertent defining of God in terms of perceived goodness. It is likewise a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of sin.
We tend to define sin in terms of a tangible thing. However, sin is not a substance, but rather a state of being that falls short of the standard of God. Therefore, nothing God does can be intrinsically sinful or short of that standard. Not one act from the hand of the Creator and Sustainer can be said to fall short of His own standard – He’s the very source of the standard! This is precisely why we see God bearing attributes, which in humanity, quickly lead one into all sorts of gross misconduct. The fundamental difference, again, is that God exercises these things in perfect fashion, in accordance with His will or desire.
 
wicked actions of wicked men have a place in God’s plan, if they are foreordained of God, then is man responsible for them, and is not God the author of sin?

To each of these questions the Bible returns a very unequivocal answer. Yes, man is responsible for his wicked actions; and no, God is not the author of sin.

That man is responsible for his wicked actions is made so plain from the beginning of the Bible to the end that it is quite useless to cite individual proof texts. But it is equally clear in the Bible that God is not the author of sin. That is clear from the very nature of sin, as rebellion against God’s holy law. It is also expressly taught. “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’” says the Epistle of James, “for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (James 1:13–14).

How, then, can we meet the difficulty? We have said that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. The sinful actions of sinful men are things that come to pass. Yet we deny that God is the author of them and we put the responsibility for them upon man.

How can we possibly do that? Are we not involving ourselves in hopeless contradiction?

Why No Contradiction?

The answer is found in the fact that although God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, he causes the bringing of those things to pass in widely different ways. He does not cause the bringing to pass of the actions of personal beings in the same way as the way in which he causes the bringing to pass of events in the physical world. That is true even of the good actions of men who are his children. Even when God causes those men to do certain things by the gracious influence of his Holy Spirit, he does not deal with them as with sticks or stones, but he deals with them as with men. He does not cause them to do those things against their will, but he determines their will, and their freedom as persons is fully preserved when they perform those acts. The acts remain their acts, even though they are led to do them by the Spirit of God.

When God causes the bringing to pass of the evil actions of men, he does that in still a different way. He does not tempt the men to sin; he does not influence them to sin. But he causes the bringing to pass of those deeds by the free and responsible choices of personal beings. He has created those beings with the awful gift of freedom of choice. The things that they do in exercise of that gift are their acts. They do not, indeed, surprise God by the doing of them; their doing of them is part of his eternal plan; yet in the doing of them they, and not the holy God, are responsible.

Yes, God has told us much. Is it surprising that he has not told us all?
What is the real difficulty here? Is it the difficulty of harmonizing the free will of the creature with the certainty of the creature’s actions as part of God’s eternal purpose? No, I do not think that is the real difficulty. The real difficulty is the difficulty of seeing how a good and all-powerful God ever could have allowed sin to enter the world that he had created. That difficulty faces not only the consistent and truly biblical view of the divine decree which we have tried to summarize this afternoon, but it also faces the inconsistent views that we have rejected. It can never be used, therefore, as an argument in favor of any one of those inconsistent views and against the consistent view.

For both, the problem remains. How could a holy God, if he is all-powerful, have permitted the existence of sin?

What shall we do with the problem? I am afraid we shall have to do with it something that is not very pleasing to our pride; I am afraid we shall just have to say that it is insoluble.

Is it so surprising that there are some things that we do not know? God has told us much. He has told us much even about sin. He has told us how at infinite cost, by the gift of his Son, he has provided a way of escape from it. Yes, God has told us much. Is it surprising that he has not told us all? I do not think so, my friends. After all, we are but finite creatures. Is it surprising that there are some mysteries which God in his infinite goodness and wisdom has hidden from our eyes? Is it surprising that there are some things in his counsels about which he has bidden us be content not to know but instead just to trust him who knows all?

This post is adapted from J. Gresham Machen, What is Predestination, (Philadelphia, PA: Westminster Seminary Press, 2017), 39–42. Used with permission of the publisher.
 
The difference between God ordaining what comes to pass and God making a decree about what happens is a subtle one. According to the Westminster Confession, God has “freely and immutably ordained whatsoever comes to pass” 1. This means that everything that happens in the world is a result of God’s sovereign will and plan.

On the other hand, making a decree about what happens is more like a command or an order. When God makes a decree, He is issuing a directive or a proclamation about what should happen 2. For example, when God decreed that the Israelites should observe the Sabbath, He was giving them a commandment to follow 3.

In essence, both concepts are related to God’s sovereignty and control over the world. However, ordaining what comes to pass is more about God’s overarching plan for the world, while making a decree is more about specific commands or directives that God gives to His people.

I hope this helps clarify the difference between these two concepts.

The answer is found in the fact that although God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, he causes the bringing of those things to pass in widely different ways. He does not cause the bringing to pass of the actions of personal beings in the same way as the way in which he causes the bringing to pass of events in the physical world.

In essence, God ordains things by having a plan for the world and allowing events to unfold according to His will. However, He also gives humans the freedom to make choices and decisions that can affect the course of history.
 
Calvanism is offensive because it teaches God creates people who sin against Him causing permanent separation between God and the sinner which God is then indifferent to.

Now, what kind of Father in Heaven or earthly father would not be heartbroken over a child going astray and want their relationship repaired? No good father but the devil for sure.

You don't understand what you're reading.

Paul means to the unrepentant, believers smell like death because believers were being persecured because of their faith. They always have been.
But their sacrifice smells sweet to God and other believers, as Paul is instructing the Corinthians to forgive a repentant sinner. That's the reason Paul gives for his own suffering and says that's why the Messiah suffered,

I wrote that letter in great anguish, with a troubled heart and many tears. I didn’t want to grieve you, but I wanted to let you know how much love I have for you.....Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him.....So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him.....
When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.....But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ’s triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume.
2Cor.2:4,7,8,10-11,14 NLT

The evil schemes are the savor of death. The fact that Paul was being persecuted for spreading the gospel of Gods' forgiveness to the repentant is exactly what Calvanism does not teach.

And right in this text, Paul affirms that he is now suffering in a way our Savior did.....for spreading that good news.


Then it should be easy for you to find scripture supporting it. I think we've covered everything.
I won't expect any sensible eespinse to the text you cited.
Youve been warned friend.
 
I answered you on this several times.I posted several links in a row, I will repost them so you have no excuse and cannot play dumb!

The Decree of God​

God’s decree is his eternal plan, whereby, according to his decretive will and for his glory, he foreordained everything that comes to pass.

8 Characteristics​

The following list features the major characteristics of the decree of God:1

  1. Single: “the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11)
  2. Comprehensive: “works all things” (Eph. 1:11), including the ordination of the good actions of people (Eph. 2:10) as well as sinful acts (Prov. 16:4; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28), events that are contingent from a human perspective (Gen. 45:8; 50:20; Prov. 16:33), the means and ends of acts (Ps. 119:89–91; Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13), and the length (Job 14:5; Ps. 39:4) and place of a person’s life (Acts 17:26)2
  3. Unconditional and not based on outside influences: “according to the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11; see also Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29–30; Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:2)
  4. Eternal: “who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began” (2 Tim. 1:9; see also Eph. 1:4)
  5. Effectual: “declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’” (Isa. 46:10; see also Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21)
  6. Immutable: “he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back?” (Job 23:13–14; see also Ps. 33:11; Isa. 14:24; 46:10; Acts 2:23)
  7. Ordaining sin and controlling its effects: “God gave them up . . .” (Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; see also Pss. 78:29; 106:15; Acts 14:16; 17:30; Rom. 3:25)
  8. Purpose of the decree: to manifest and bring praise to God’s glory (Rom. 11:33–36; Eph. 1:6, 12, 14; Rev. 4:11)
www.crossway.org

8 Characteristics of the Decree of God

God’s decree is his eternal plan, whereby, according to his decretive will and for his glory, he foreordained everything that comes to pass.
With all due respect Icon,
I've read the above and also the following posts.

I guess there's a communication gap here.
I'm not willing to read about what others think about the word decree.

What I'm trying to find out from YOU....because YOU said the words have different meanings,
is WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between:
DECREE
ORDAIN
PREDESTINATE

Now, if the really all mean the same, then just say so.
If they mean something different to the reformed, I'd like to know.
Now, I love RC, but I'm not about to read 3 or 4 pages when the answer could be had
in a few sentences.
 
With all due respect Icon,
I've read the above and also the following posts.

I guess there's a communication gap here.
I'm not willing to read about what others think about the word decree.

What I'm trying to find out from YOU....because YOU said the words have different meanings,
is WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between:
DECREE
ORDAIN
PREDESTINATE

Now, if the really all mean the same, then just say so.
If they mean something different to the reformed, I'd like to know.
Now, I love RC, but I'm not about to read 3 or 4 pages when the answer could be had
in a few sentences.
Sorry but that is not how it works. This says to everyone....W admits she is in over her head. You do not want to read because you know it will expose your error. You will not read 3 or 4 pages that will break the truth down, but you will read a 100 pages of unbiblical nonsense that people post on here.
I have attempted to explain but you are not quite up to the task, mentally. Is that an insult? No, it is a fact.
I broke down Acts 2:23 into 4 parts, showing that God even employs wicked men to do His will, and you glossed over it. Listen, you do not have to read anything, but then do not complain that no one is answering you.
 
We have been over this before, I have asked him not to teach against the substitutionary death of Christ in this forum. I have asked you as well. This forum is for the debate/discussion of Calvinism/Arminianism, both believe in the substitutionary death of Christ, though they differ on its accomplishments.
Sometimes normal conversation takes one a little bit away from the OP.
I'd like to reply to the above but won't.
Just let me ask....how about the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement?
Maybe a new thread?
I'll start one in Theology...
 
Sorry but that is not how it works. This says to everyone....W admits she is in over her head. You do not want to read because you know it will expose your error. You will not read 3 or 4 pages that will break the truth down, but you will read a 100 pages of unbiblical nonsense that people post on here.
I have attempted to explain but you are not quite up to the task, mentally. Is that an insult? No, it is a fact.
I broke down Acts 2:23 into 4 parts, showing that God even employs wicked men to do His will, and you glossed over it. Listen, you do not have to read anything, but then do not complain that no one is answering you.
But I'm not interested in wicked men.
I'm interested in knowing the difference between the 3 words we discussed.

I guess YOU are in over your head if you can't even explain what 3 words WHICH YOU BROUGHT UP mean!

And yes, YOU ARE NOT REPLYING to my request.

Apparently, you're unable to.
 
Sometimes normal conversation takes one a little bit away from the OP.
I'd like to reply to the above but won't.
Just let me ask....how about the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement?
Maybe a new thread?
I'll start one in Theology...
Basic Christianity is built upon the foundation of the substitutionary atonement,

Biblical Christianity relies on the Bible to understand true faith. It is counter to cultural Christianity, which does not truly adhere to the faith or the Bible. Biblical Christianity bases its doctrine on the Bible alone. Cultural Christianity may be based on family background, personal experience, country of residence, or social environment—what the Bible says is secondary. Cultural Christianity produces nominal believers who label themselves as Christians but who allow culture to define their convictions. Biblical Christianity produces true believers who use God’s Word to understand salvation and what it means to be a Christian.

Biblical Christianity adheres to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, as found in the Bible:

1) The Triunity of God: the one God exists eternally in three Persons.
2) Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. His death was the substitutionary sacrifice for sinners, and He rose again bodily.
3) Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
4) The sixty-six books of the Bible are God’s Word, inspired, inerrant, and sufficient for living a godly life.
5) Jesus Christ is coming again to judge sin and rule the world.

Any departure from these points represents a departure from biblical Christianity.

And Im sure this forum is in agreement. When philosophies began to deviate from this, please take it to another subforum. Thanks
 
Basic Christianity is built upon the foundation of the substitutionary atonement,



And Im sure this forum is in agreement. When philosophies began to deviate from this, please take it to another subforum. Thanks
Agreed.

I do want to say that I agree with your two links.
I don't even understand why you thought they were necessary.
They do not, however, mention the Penal Theory of Atonement.
No matter.
It ends here.
 
But I'm not interested in wicked men.
I am not interested in explaining things to a fool. The answers are right there. you do not want to read it, you confess openly that you are a fool.
I'm interested in knowing the difference between the 3 words we discussed.
Evidently you are not interested, but no problem, others have read and learned.
I guess YOU are in over your head if you can't even explain what 3 words WHICH YOU BROUGHT UP mean!
Not at all. Anyone can go back and see I did answer you. you decline the offer.
And yes, YOU ARE NOT REPLYING to my request.
No, I am just obeying Mt.7:6
Apparently, you're unable to.
No just having to obey scripture;
King James Bible
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 
I broke down Acts 2:23 into 4 parts, showing that God even employs wicked men to do His will, and you glossed over it. Listen, you do not have to read anything, but then do not complain that no one is answering you.
And in Acts 2, Peter says God showed sinners how wicked we are by using our own words how we loved God, but then reject Him as King of Israel?

You see Iconoclast, that's what Peter is referring to. Of course later as the gospel spread to gentile nations Jesus is recognized by believers as King of this World and the next, so we understand the Judge of the living and the dead a bit better.

After Peter explained their misunderstanding about how the Messiah is like His Father in forgiving evil men which they were,

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act.2:37-38 ESV

So Peter understood from the beginning of his Spirit filled life that God did not want sinners to be destroyed and the PROOF is our Creator allowed Himslef to be humiliated by people who should have honored Him.
Honoring Him truly is now. Honoring Him truly is forgiving as He did. He said this.
 
Hi
Are you yet another type of reformed?
Are you saying that eventually ALL will be saved by going thru the lake of fire?

Are you a universalist?
Sorry I don't follow either reform or universalism. I have been put into those boxes recently but maybe I don't know enough about them to say. I am privileged to know what I know and thank my great loving Shepherd for what He feeds me.
 
So we don’t need to believe?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
We most assuredly have to believe. Anyone who tells you to the contrary you need to avoid like the plague.
 
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