Is TULIP biblical?

[electedbyhim]

I understand and agree with the above.
Do you agree that God freely giving Himself to sinners does not mean God wanted sinners to slap Him in the face?

Now all you have to do is look at how condemning Jesus violated the law, because God determined beforehand how He would show the world (Jews + gentiles our sin against Him.....

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2 KJV

Why do the heathen (the gentiles)rage and the people (the Jews) imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth (the gentiles) set themselves and the rulers (Jewish leaders) take counsel together against the LORD and against his anointed Psa.2:1-2

So Father and Son determined before to show pure love to sinners,

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25

The Messiah is clearly teaching repentance for the torgivness of sins. The very proof text you're citing shows Peters' listeners being "pricked in the heart."

What I just wrote doesn't disagree with any passage you cited. Isn't that anazing?

Do you agree that God freely giving Himself to sinners does not mean God wanted sinners to slap Him in the face?

God is sovereign over everyone and everything. I believe God knew exactly what He preordained to come to pass, including the slaps, spitting and torture of Christ. He controls all things.

 

[journeyman]

God is sovereign over everyone and everything. I believe God knew exactly what He preordained to come to pass, including the slaps, spitting and torture of Christ. He controls all things.

I'm asking, do you believe God sent His Son so sinners would listen, observe and repent?
Or do you believe God wanted His Son slapped, spit on and tortured?

 

[electedbyhim]

I'm asking, do you believe God sent His Son so sinners would listen, observe and repent?
Or do you believe God wanted His Son slapped, spit on and tortured?

This is what I believe.

1 John 4:9-10 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we have loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[journeyman]

This is what I believe.

1 John 4:9-10 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we have loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And is God satisfied by the love He shows to sinners, or by destroying them?

 

[electedbyhim]

And is God satisfied by the love He shows to sinners, or by destroying them?

No one can fully understand God or His love.

I do not claim to completely understand Him, I take His word by faith, especially what I do not understand.

Who am I to question the Lord.

These verses come to mind.

Romans 9:18-20 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

 

[journeyman]

No one can fully understand God or His love.

I didn't ask if anyone can fully understand God or His love. Doesn't matter.

I do not claim to completely understand Him, I take His word by faith, especially what I do not understand.
Who am I to question the Lord.

I believe if something truly makes no sense to us, we should ask God for the answers.

These verses come to mind.

Romans 9:18-20 So then He has mercy on whom He desires,

God has mercy on the humble,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

Jeremiah 18 very simply shows how "God" makes people good or evil.

 

[electedbyhim]

I didn't ask if anyone can fully understand God or His love. Doesn't matter.

I believe if something truly makes no sense to us, we should ask God for the answers.

God has mercy on the humble,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Jeremiah 18 very simply shows how "God" makes people good or evil.

I believe if something truly makes no sense to us, we should ask God for the answers.

God will not reveal the secret things to us.

Deuternomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to Yahweh our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I am not certain I am understand completely what you are getting at.

 

[journeyman]

God will not reveal the secret things to us.

They're not secret anymore since Jesus rose from the dead. We can talk about how our Saviors' victory over sin, death, wicked spirits everything in the Bible is related to this.
The Book of the Revelation (unveiling) of Jesus Christ is talking all about revealing Him to nankind. The figures are all OT and show Christ throughout scripture as God.

Deuternomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to Yahweh our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Moses was telling Israel that what God showed them was enough for them to "do all the words of this law."

electedbyhim,
Moses was telling Gods' people to be humble. To "do all the law" with your own shortcomings in mind. To realize your own sinfulness. To understand that me, journeyman, ain't better than nobody,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb.4:2 KJV

The only difference is, Now... in my day, I can honestly say I'm no better than the Israelites who rebelled against Moses, or the Jews and gentiles who murdered Jesus, because my sins. I've committed many sins. Who am I?

I am not certain I am understand completely what you are getting at.

What I'm getting at is that I see the God of the Bible far more loving toward all in every Book of Scripture than I ever have.

Of course there is no reason left for not repenting of sin,

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how
shall God judge the world? Rom.3:5-6

 

[electedbyhim]

They're not secret anymore since Jesus rose from the dead. We can talk about how our Saviors' victory over sin, death, wicked spirits everything in the Bible is related to this.
The Book of the Revelation (unveiling) of Jesus Christ is talking all about revealing Him to nankind. The figures are all OT and show Christ throughout scripture as God.

Moses was telling Israel that what God showed them was enough for them to "do all the words of this law."

electedbyhim,
Moses was telling Gods' people to be humble. To "do all the law" with your own shortcomings in mind. To realize your own sinfulness. To understand that me, journeyman, ain't better than nobody.

The only difference is, Now... in my day, I can honestly say I'm no better than the Israelites who rebelled against Moses, or the Jews and gentiles who murdered Jesus, because my sins. I've committed many sins. Who am I?

What I'm getting at is that I see the God of the Bible far more loving toward all in every Book of Scripture than I ever have.

Of course there is no reason left for not repenting of sin,

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how
shall God judge the world? Rom.3:5-6

I understand what you are saying about Deuteronomy 29:29.

My mind cannot fathom Christ being fully human and fully God at the same time, the Trinity is another one. This is where Deuteronomy 29:29 comes in for me.

We must all repent of sin, the more I understand Gods word, the more I can see my own sinfulness and how such a Loving God has saved a wretch as me.

At 56, I pray that the Lord 's Spirit guide me through life. My goal is to do all things for the Glory of God.

It can be quite the challenge at times.

Prayer works.

 

[electedbyhim]

Back on topic.

Monergism.com

DOCTRINES OF GRACE – CATEGORIZED SCRIPTURE LIST​

God has recently given us the opportunity to discuss some theological issues with other Christians who believe differently than we do on a number of points, most notably the doctrines of grace. In such a circumstance, given the overwhelming supply of scriptural evidence that comes to bear on the topic, it seemed to me that the best approach would be a simple categorized scripture list: the fact that the entire paper would be scriptures, with the exception of a few brief explanatory notes, would underscore the truth that this is God's own word and teaching; and the fact that it would be categorized would facilitate the ready comparison of scripture with scripture so as to lead one to a full-orbed understanding of the biblical teaching. Although I found a few good scripture lists of that nature available online, none of them was laid out in quite the progression that I was looking for, and so I developed my own. I'm posting it here with just the scripture references. Below, for your convenience I have provided a condensed version and a full version of the study. The study is also available in print from Monergism Books.

Unconditional Election​

God is Sovereign Exo 15:18; 1Chr 29:11-12; 2Chr 20:6; Psa 22:28

He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything
Deu 32:39; 1Sam 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa 33:11; Psa 115:3; Psa 135:6; Isa 14:24; Isa 45:7; Act 15:18; Eph 1:11

• Including matters of “chance”

Pro 16:33; 1Ki 22:20, 34, 37

• The wicked actions of men

Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Pro 16:4; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28

• The actions of evil spirits

1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1

• The good actions of men

John 15:16; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13

• The actions of good angels

Psa 103:20; Psa 104:4

• The actions of animals

Num 22:28; 1Ki 17:4; Psa 29:9; Jer 8:7; Eze 32:4; Dan 6:22

• The operations of all creation

Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39

1. Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts

Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; Rom 9:19-24

God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

1. His angels

1Tim 5:21

1. His peculiar people, Israel

Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21

1. Individuals to salvation

Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14

1. Individuals to condemnation

Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election

1. His own good pleasure

Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9

1. The display of his glory

Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4

1. His special love

Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13

1. His foreknowledge

Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2

• Which means his special love

Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20

• But not:

Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

Pt.1

 

[electedbyhim]

Continued

Total Depravity​

Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19 He is therefore unable

1. To do anything good

Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8

1. To believe in God (or come to him)

John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41

1. To understand the truth

John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14

1. To seek God

Rom 3:10-11

He is dead in sins Gen 2:16-17; John 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13 He is blinded and corrupt in his heart Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8 He is captive to sin and Satan John 8:34; John 8:44; Rom 6:20; 2Tim 2:25-26; Tit 3:3; 1John 5:19 He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mark 7:21-23; Jam 1:13-14

Limited Atonement​

God purposed to redeem a certain people and not others 1Chr 17:20-21; Mat 22:14; 1Pet 2:8-9 [see “God elects individuals to salvation”/God elects individuals to condemnation”]

1. It is for these in particular that Christ gave his life

Isa 53:10-11; Mat 1:21; John 6:35-40; John 10:3-4, 11, 14-15; Act 20:28; Eph 5:25 [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives]; Heb 2:17; Heb 9:15

1. It is for these in particular that Christ intercedes

John 17:1-2; John 17:6-12; John 17:20-21, 24-26; Rom 8:34

1. The people for whom Christ intercedes are the same as the people for whom he offered himself up as a sacrifice

Heb 7:24-27; Heb 9:12 [note context, in which entering into the holy place is explicitly for the purpose of intercession], 24-28 [For a fuller understanding of the indissoluble connection between sacrifice and intercession, read Hebrews chapters 7-10]

The atonement of Christ is effective

1. To justify

Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned]

1. To redeem and cleanse from sins

Eph 5:25-27; Tit 2:14

1. To propitiate the Father

1John 2:2 [“propitiation” means “the turning away or appeasement of wrath”; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10

1. To raise to new life

2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple “if/then” proposition: “if” Christ died for someone, “then,” with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18

[See also, “Jesus' death purchased for his people a new heart; – faith; – repentance”. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.] Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe John 3:16

1. From every nation

Rev 5:9

1. From every class

Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first “all men” is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second “all men” in the same way]

1. Therefore, Christ's saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of “all,” “world,” etc.

John 1:29; Tit 2:11-14 [in the context of “all men” is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term “every”]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to “us” (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means “appeasement of wrath”; either Jesus appeases God's wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God's wrath resides) is non-existent; or the “whole world” means something different than “every individual who ever lived”. See John 11:51-52, and “The word 'world' is often used in the sense of 'many,' or 'all of a set'”]

1. The word “all” is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set

Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4

1. Or, to indicate all “classes” or “nations,” not all individuals

Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12

1. The word “world” is often used in the sense of “many,” or “all of a set”

Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8

Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people

1. God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for

Mark 9:43-44

1. If one were to say, “their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,” he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin

Heb 3:12 [“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]

1. God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]

1The 2:16; 2The 1:6-9

Intentions of Christ's death other than atonement

1. To make a public display of demons

Col 2:13-15

1. To rule over everyone

Rom 14:9

1. To redeem creation

Isa 35:1-4; Rom 8:20-23

1. To lay the foundation for a genuine gospel call

John 6:39-40; John 7:37-38

1. To provide temporal mercies for the non-elect

Mat 5:45; 1Tim 4:10

Part 2

 

[electedbyhim]

Continued...


Irresistible Grace

Faith and Repentance (as well as the new heart which is able to produce them) are themselves gifts of God

1. A new heart
Deu 30:6; Eze 11:19; Eze 36:26-27

2. Faith
John 3:27, 6:63-65; Phi 1:29; 2Pet 1:1; Act 16:14; Act 18:27; Eph 2:8-10

3. Repentance
Act 5:3; Act 11:18; 2Tim 2:25-26; 1Cor 4:7

The Father writes his own word upon (places the fear of himself in, etc.) his people's hearts Jer 31:33; Jer 32:40; Mat 16:15-17; Luk 10:21; John 6:45; 2Cor 4:6 The beginning of salvation is the sovereign impartation of spiritual life into a heart which had been dead, thereby causing it to exercise faith 1John 5:1; Eze 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13; John 3:3-8; John 5:21; Eph 2:1-5; Jam 1:18; 1Pet 1:3; 1John 2:29 True offers of grace in the outward gospel call may be resisted by men who do not have this new heart Act 17:32-33 In fact, true offers of grace will always be resisted by such men John 10:24-26; John 12:37-40 But there are some whom God causes to come to him Psa 65:4; Psa 110:3; John 6:37-40; Rom 9:15

Perseverance of the Saints

What God begins, he finishes Psa 138:8; Ecc 3:14; Isa 46:4; Jer 32:40; Rom 11:29; Phi 1:6; 2Tim 4:18 Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost John 6:39-40; John 10:27-29; Rom 8:28-31; Rom 8:35-39; Heb 7:25; Heb 10:14 God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith 1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:7-8; Rev 22:14-15 However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere John 15:16; 1Cor 1:30-31; 1Cor 6:11; 1Cor 12:3; 1Cor 15:10; Gal 3:1-6; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13; 1The 5:23-24; Heb 13:20-21; 1John 2:29; Jud 1:24-25.

 

[JLB]

The Natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. The natural man cannot please God Rom 8:8

You can be a born again Christian and have a carnal mind that doesn’t receive the things of God.


What’s your point?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (ESV)

This is written to and refers to born again Christians.

Born again Christians must choose to live according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.

Here is the context of Romans 8:5


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.



For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5




JLB

 

[journeyman]

We must all repent of sin, the more I understand Gods word, the more I can see my own sinfulness and how such a Loving God has saved a wretch as me.

Can you see the sinful acts committed against Jesus?

It can be quite the challenge at times.

Prayer works.

The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. Psa.34:15 KJV
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Lk.22:44 KJV

 

[brightfame52]

You can be a born again Christian and have a carnal mind that doesn’t receive the things of God.


What’s your point?





JLB

But you cant be nothing but carnal if not born again. A born again person has two natures, one spiritual and one carnal, but the one not born again can only have a carnal mind and cant receive the things of God.

 

[Free]

This is written to and refers to born again Christians.

Born again Christians must choose to live according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.

Here is the context of Romans 8:5


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.



For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5

Yes, true believers must choose to not sin, but it is more than just that. You left out some important context:

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

It is written to believers, but not necessarily or only about believers. It is a statement about unbelievers, that they "live according to the flesh" and are "hostile to God," being unable to "submit to God's law." It is also a warning for believers to both not set their minds on things of the flesh and that if they think they are saved but live according to the flesh, they do "not belong to [Christ]."

 

[brightfame52]

Free

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

Even though a believer can act out carnally, they arent in the flesh since the Spirit of God resides in them

So Rom 8:8 applies only to the unregenerate, unbeliever Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[journeyman]

This is written to and refers to born again Christians.

Born again Christians must choose to live according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.

Here is the context of Romans 8:5

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5

This is exactly right. Calvanism created this delusion that paeople can't choose to follow direction, but that isn't even what we see every day.
We see sinners following the direction of their bosses at work. God spoke through prophets. He said long ago that someday gentiles all over this world will worship Me because of My Son...and here we are!

Thank you Lird Jesus for that and on that I'm sure we all agree!

 

[Free]

This is exactly right. Calvanism created this delusion that paeople can't choose to follow direction, but that isn't even what we see every day.
We see sinners following the direction of their bosses at work.

That's a false analogy and misrepresentation of what Calvinism teaches. Every Calvinist would agree that every unsaved person can choose to follow "the directions of their bosses at work." That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the unsaved are able to choose to go from spiritual blindness and death to life in Christ.