Is TULIP biblical?

[Free]

I was agreeing with Paul and disagreeing with brightflame.

But, brightfame52 stated: "Our mind by nature is enmity against God and not subject to God and cannot be."

You responded with: "No the devils' mind is so listen to Jesus. "

Both brightfame52 and I posted what Paul wrote:

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (ESV)

brightfame52 stated exactly what Paul stated. So, I don't see how you agree with Paul but disagree with brightfame.

Yes exactly. God pleases others.

What do you mean by "God pleases others"?

Jesus pleased His Father by thinking of others before Himself.

Jesus pleased the Father by becoming a propitiatory sacrifice, taking the punishment of our sins upon himself so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God.

So if a persons' mind is set on "the flesh" he can't please God.

That's why Paul instructs us to set our minds on things above "where Christ is."

No, it is why we need to first be saved by the grace of God. You are once again promoting works salvation by saying that all one simply needs to do is set their mind 'on things above "where Christ is".' But Paul is speaking of "Those who are in the flesh;" it is they who have their minds "set on the flesh."

Indeed, the devil tempts through the "desire" of the flesh, which can't do anything without a mind.

Those verses aren't talking about temptation. They are clearly talking about Satan blinding the mind of unbelievers so that they can't even see "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

What Paul says is in agreement with total depravity:

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (ESV)

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

 

[electedbyhim]

@Christempowered
The Bible does not say, "People are born spiritually dead." No person who ever walked on this earth was "born spiritually dead."

We may walk farther and farther away from God, but that shows we walked away toward a path that led to death. Like the "prodigal son" parable. He was with his father in the beginning, got greedy and ended up slopping pigs.. and Jews didn't eat pulled pork bro.
I once woke up in an alleyway with snow all over me and thought, "What the heck am I doing?" And I didn't return to the Father I once knew as a child.
No theological degree. My parents told me that God created everything. He said he was up in heaven and we couldn't see him until we get to heaven. I believed that as a child.
My life was centered in God by family (women and children) who went to church on Sunday, mentioned God by mouth when correction was necessary but lived their faith daily.

One who wanders from the way of good sense will rest in the assembly of the dead. Pro.21:16 ESV

My parents taught me good sense. Paul had good sense before he understood the law,

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Rom.7:9 NKJV


By Iron willed belief in the Power of God

Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Cor.1:24 ESV

You've been misled my friend. People have mocked us for our imperfections, but iur Father never mocks us. Our Lord says they same type mocked Him too and He had no imperfections.
Thank you dear Lord Jesus for showing me how I have mocked You and Your Grace in having forginen me all of it.
I truly undersrand now Oh Lord how You want Your church to see others, to love others as You loved us.

I never hear you hating or pointing your finger at, or condemning people who make your life miserable. I hear frustration with the comic twist. I hear you thanking God for every peaceful thing in your life.

You don't sound nuts to me at all, so watch for the person who's telling you that. That's the one who Satan is speaking through.

The Bible does not say, "People are born spiritually dead." No person who ever walked on this earth was "born spiritually dead."

Ephesians 2:1-6 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

1 Peter 4:6 For to this the gospel has been proclaimed even to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh as men, they live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the depths of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually examined.

 

[journeyman]

But, brightfame52 stated: "Our mind by nature is enmity against God and not subject to God and cannot be."

You responded with: "No the devils' mind is so listen to Jesus. "

Both brightfame52 and I posted what Paul wrote:

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (ESV)

brightfame52 stated exactly what Paul stated. So, I don't see how you agree with Paul but disagree with brightfame.

Because you and @brightflame can't see how the devils' mind was set on Eves' flesh and how Eve wasn't aware of "the law" until after her eyes were opened.

Like any adult could deceive a child by lying, you think Eve couldn't ask forgivness and have it granted.

What do you mean by "God pleases others"?

I mean,
Every good gift ande very perfect gift is from above, Jas.1:17

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

What do you have that you did not receive? 1Cor.4:7

Jesus pleased the Father by becoming a propitiatory sacrifice, taking the punishment of our sins upon himself so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God.

Jesus pleased His Father by not destroying creatures He made, even though they rebelled against Him

No, it is why we need to first be saved by the grace of God.

Jesus not calling on His law to condemn sinners is the mercy of God. Who do you think Jesus is?

You are once again promoting works salvation by saying that all one simply needs to do is set their mind 'on things above "where Christ is".'

Yes and where is Christ? Sitting on His Throne in Heaven. You know that's where God sits, right?

And you understand sin against God can only be forgiven by God right?

But Paul is speaking of "Those who are in the flesh;"

Meaning they're focused on their own pleasure.

it is they who have their minds "set on the flesh."

And Pauls' description of the "minds set on flesh doesn't describe children born into this world. He's describing people who wander so far from God they do the things he listed.

Those verses aren't talking about temptation. They are clearly talking about Satan blinding the mind of unbelievers

Yes and please start reading from Romans 1 and continue from there because it's obvious Paul doesn't mean humans are born spiritually blind, or that the instant someone sins he immediately becomes devoid of any knowledge or desire of God.

so that they can't even see "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Over time pushing the influence of the Holy Spirit away leads to blindness. This is why we show others compassion when we are mistreated for our faith.

God is pleased when we show His love to sinners...which He and His Son are not.

What Paul says is in agreement with total depravity:

Not the way you want it portrayed. Human beings aren't light switches. We all have consciences which Paul mentions also early in Romans but you don't seem to care.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Americas Funniest videos had this mother on who told her 5 year old daughter that she ate all her Halloween candy. The kid said, "That's ok mommy but maybe next Halloween we could share it."

In fairness, they showed a boy from another family who threw a tantrum when told the same thing, so maybe God did choose one kid and not the other.

Or maybe one parent was raising her child correctly and the other parent gave their child whatever he wanted and turned him into a little monster.

Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (ESV)

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

I don't see where admitting we're sinners is anything to brag about. Why do you think people keep things they're ashamed of to themselves, or only confess them to oeople they trust? It's because of pride. People don't want to be made fun of.
But the truth is we're all the same, so we don't point out sin to harm others, but so that they know God will forgive any sin and give us a fresh start and guide us as we go.

 

[journeyman]

Ephesians 2:1-6 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

The sentence all sinners are under.

in which you formerly walked

Until you repented

according to the course of this world,

of the sins common to all

according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

Walking with our former daddy

among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Please understand when Paul says "we" here, he means "we (Jews)" and "even as the rest (of mankind.)

Look at chapter 1. Paul doesn't even refer to gentiles until vs.13, "In whom ye (gentiles) also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation

But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Yes and that is in spirit. That's how we think with the mind of Christ. We follow the Holy Spirits leading. We set out minds on things above, like the welfare of our fellow man.

Only we begin to see the love God has for the ungodly is still going on.....through us,

Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God!" 2Cor.5:20

Do you understand Paul is saying we represent God like Jesus did ? Not as good as Jesus did, but like Jesus did.

Jesus represented God best because God represents Himself best.

Jesus didn't vaunt Himself. He said,

“Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?” Lk.12:14 NKJV

That has to be one of the funniest things the Judge of the living and dead has ever said.

1 Peter 4:6 For to this the gospel has been proclaimed even to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh as men, they live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Yes, their flesh perished as they walked with Jesus and the flesh was put to death

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the depths of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually examined.

Sounds like let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.

 

[Free]

Because you and @brightflame can't see how the devils' mind was set on Eves' flesh and how Eve wasn't aware of "the law" until after her eyes were opened.

Like any adult could deceive a child by lying, you think Eve couldn't ask forgivness and have it granted.

Except that the only thing Eve has to do with the passage is that she was the first one deceived by Satan. It has nothing to do with enmity between the devil and Eve.

I mean,
Every good gift ande very perfect gift is from above, Jas.1:17

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

What do you have that you did not receive? 1Cor.4:7

What does any of this have to do with this discussion?

Jesus pleased His Father by not destroying creatures He made, even though they rebelled against Him

Where is that stated in Scripture? Jesus pleased the Father by becoming a propitiatory sacrifice, taking the punishment of our sins upon himself so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God (Matt 17:5; cf. Luke 9:28-31; Isa. 53:10)

Jesus not calling on His law to condemn sinners is the mercy of God. Who do you think Jesus is?

Sinners are already condemned, Jesus said so himself (John 3:18-20).

Yes and where is Christ? Sitting on His Throne in Heaven. You know that's where God sits, right?

And you understand sin against God can only be forgiven by God right?

Paul is talking about unbelievers, not believers. So, you are promoting works salvation by suggest that unbelievers can just change their minds and set their minds on things above. Paul's whole point is that they cannot do so.

Meaning they're focused on their own pleasure.

That's just one of many aspects of those who are unbelievers, whom Paul is referring to by "those who are in the flesh."

And Pauls' description of the "minds set on flesh doesn't describe children born into this world. He's describing people who wander so far from God they do the things he listed.

No, Paul is referring to unbelievers. People are not born as believers and then become unbelievers, only to have to become believers again. That makes no sense. And there is no middle ground here--one is either a believer or an unbeliever. We all start as unbelievers and then some become believers.

Yes and please start reading from Romans 1 and continue from there because it's obvious Paul doesn't mean humans are born spiritually blind, or that the instant someone sins he immediately becomes devoid of any knowledge or desire of God.

Paul certainly does mean that all humans are born spiritually blind. Again, there is no middle ground--we are either spiritually blind and dead or spiritually alive; we are either walking in darkness or walking in the light; we are either unsaved or we are saved. We do not start out spiritually alive, walking in the light, and being saved. We start out totally depraved, spiritually blind, and walking in darkness, in need of salvation by God's grace.

Over time pushing the influence of the Holy Spirit away leads to blindness.

But that isn't what the Bible says. Paul very clearly states that "the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor 4:4, ESV), that such people are "those who are perishing" (v. 3). These are those who have never believed, the children of wrath; not those who have "over time push[ed] the influence of the Holy Spirit away."

Not the way you want it portrayed. Human beings aren't light switches. We all have consciences which Paul mentions also early in Romans but you don't seem to care.

Where have I portrayed humans as "light switches"? It seems to me that that is what you have done.

Americas Funniest videos had this mother on who told her 5 year old daughter that she ate all her Halloween candy. The kid said, "That's ok mommy but maybe next Halloween we could share it."

In fairness, they showed a boy from another family who threw a tantrum when told the same thing, so maybe God did choose one kid and not the other.

Or maybe one parent was raising her child correctly and the other parent gave their child whatever he wanted and turned him into a little monster.

What does that have to do with: Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot (ESV)?

I don't see where admitting we're sinners is anything to brag about. Why do you think people keep things they're ashamed of to themselves, or only confess them to oeople they trust? It's because of pride. People don't want to be made fun of.
But the truth is we're all the same, so we don't point out sin to harm others, but so that they know God will forgive any sin and give us a fresh start and guide us as we go.

I don't see how this is relevant to our discussion or to what you quoted.

 

[brightfame52]

No it's the mind of the devil towards our 1st mother Eve and the entire human race and One of Eves' children would wound his head,

I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." Gen.3:15 RSV

Adam and Eve didn't hate God.

Yes, all men naturally have a carnal mind, they have no choice, we are born with one, and this is what God says about it Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[journeyman]

Except that the only thing Eve has to do with the passage is that she was the first one deceived by Satan.

Which shows satan knew he was committing sin , but Eve didn't. So you want to make Eve reprobate, without any Godly remorse, a stone cold unrepentant heart exactly like satan and also every human born after.

You are dead wrong.

It has nothing to do with enmity between the devil and Eve.

No it has eveything to do with the devils' utter contempt and hatred for God and mankind and nothing to do with God having utter contempt and hatred for mankind... because the Bible says God loves even His enemies.

What does any of this have to do with this discussion?

It shows how teaching children matters.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

Right here:
God is love. 1Jn.4:8 KJV
Love is patient and kind...Love bears all things, 1Cor.13:4,7 ESV
the wisdom that is from above is...easy to be intreated Jas.3:17 KJV

You see how it says God is. You see how Jesus is. You agree they are One. Then, you disagree with how They're Oneness is shown. So this,

He shall see of the travail of his soul.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death and he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:11-12

Correctly becomes God enduring false witnesses against Himself while continuing to love His enemies.

Jesus pleased the Father by becoming a propitiatory sacrifice, taking the punishment of our sins upon himself. so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God (Matt 17:5; cf. Luke 9:28-31; Isa. 53:10)

Very very good! Now...the Father anger was appeased by His Son. Okay? Now...was Jesus angry like His Father and what would happen if Jesus decided not to "suffer" mankind anymore?
You believe Jesus is coming back asGod, right?

Sinners are already condemned, Jesus said so himself (John 3:18-20).

Yes and please qualify why,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn.3:18 KJV

Condemnation is final at death for the unrepentant. John 3:16 is not saying people can't believe in God or repent before death.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[journeyman]

Yes, all men naturally have a carnal mind, they have no choice

Actually it took centuries for all mankind to become reprobate and the water baptism destroyed them. The repentant who believe will survive the fire baptism.

So prepare now.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually it took centuries for all mankind to become reprobate and the water baptism destroyed them. The repentant who believe will survive the fire baptism.

So prepare now.

The carnal mind is enmity against God, it cant repent. Thats why it reads, Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind isnt subject to God cannot be. The word subject means:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

So again the carnal mind cannot repent towards God, the True God

 

[electedbyhim]

Which shows satan knew he was committing sin , but Eve didn't. So you want to make Eve reprobate, without any Godly remorse, a stone cold unrepentant heart exactly like satan and also every human born after.

You are dead wrong.

No it has eveything to do with the devils' utter contempt and hatred for God and mankind and nothing to do with God having utter contempt and hatred for mankind... because the Bible says God loves even His enemies.

It shows how teaching children matters.

Right here:
God is love. 1Jn.4:8 KJV
Love is patient and kind...Love bears all things, 1Cor.13:4,7 ESV
the wisdom that is from above is...easy to be intreated Jas.3:17 KJV

You see how it says God is. You see how Jesus is. You agree they are One. Then, you disagree with how They're Oneness is shown. So this,

He shall see of the travail of his soul.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death and he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:11-12

Correctly becomes God enduring false witnesses against Himself while continuing to love His enemies.

Very very good! Now...the Father anger was appeased by His Son. Okay? Now...was Jesus angry like His Father and what would happen if Jesus decided not to "suffer" mankind anymore?
You believe Jesus is coming back asGod, right?

Yes and please qualify why,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn.3:18 KJV

Condemnation is final at death for the unrepentant. John 3:16 is not saying people can't believe in God or repent before death.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

You have been given a lot of truth, but you deny it.

Of course Jesus is God.

Do you believe Jesus is God and Lord?

 

[Free]

Which shows satan knew he was committing sin , but Eve didn't. So you want to make Eve reprobate, without any Godly remorse, a stone cold unrepentant heart exactly like satan and also every human born after.

You are dead wrong.

No, it is what the Bible teaches.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (ESV)

It is irrelevant as to whether or not they knew they were sinning, or even what sin was. The point is that they did sin by disobeying and, therefore, rebelling against God.

No it has eveything to do with the devils' utter contempt and hatred for God and mankind and nothing to do with God having utter contempt and hatred for mankind... because the Bible says God loves even His enemies.

Nowhere have I said that God has "utter contempt and hatred for mankind."

Rom 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (ESV)

It shows how teaching children matters.

Which is relevant how?

Right here:
God is love. 1Jn.4:8 KJV
Love is patient and kind...Love bears all things, 1Cor.13:4,7 ESV
the wisdom that is from above is...easy to be intreated Jas.3:17 KJV

You see how it says God is. You see how Jesus is. You agree they are One. Then, you disagree with how They're Oneness is shown. So this,

You claimed: "Jesus pleased His Father by not destroying creatures He made, even though they rebelled against Him"

I asked: "Where is that stated in Scripture?"

Your response does not support your claim.

He shall see of the travail of his soul.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death and he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:11-12

Correctly becomes God enduring false witnesses against Himself while continuing to love His enemies.

On what basis does it "correctly become" what you say it does? What does Scripture actually say?

Very very good! Now...the Father anger was appeased by His Son. Okay? Now...was Jesus angry like His Father and what would happen if Jesus decided not to "suffer" mankind anymore?
You believe Jesus is coming back asGod, right?

What do you mean by "Very very good!"? You don't at all support what I said, which was:

"Jesus pleased the Father by becoming a propitiatory sacrifice, taking the punishment of our sins upon himself. so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God (Matt 17:5; cf. Luke 9:28-31; Isa. 53:10)"

Yes and please qualify why,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn.3:18 KJV

Condemnation is final at death for the unrepentant.

You're fallaciously begging the question. Why do they need to believe in the name of the Son of God in the first place? That is the issue, which goes back to the passage I quoted from Rom 5,

John 3:16 is not saying people can't believe in God or repent before death.

Of course not. Nowhere have I said otherwise, so I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[journeyman]

No, it is what the Bible teaches.

I'm tired of your indefense of claiming mankind is at enmity with God from birth.

Everything in your post has been answered many times before and you ignore it.

 

[electedbyhim]

God punishing Himself in place of sinners isn't the truth. And btw, you don't comment on the scripture I cited in relation to all other scripture and hiw they harmonize.

Ok. So why does your god punish himself for mankinds sins?

Yes. Lets try something simple,

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for hisonly son, and shall be in bitternessfor him, as one that is in bitternessfor his firstborn. Zech.12:10 Jn.19:27

I believe He means people who crucified Jesus will know the pain of someone who lost his only son. They will be filled with sorrow.....because they will know the sorrow God felt as His only Son was butchered.

Your turn

I do not understand what your point is.

 

[journeyman]

No, it is what the Bible teaches.

Well Free,
You're saying enmity, hatred, utter contempt for God is how man is born into this world and cannot repent even if he's truly sorry.

This is what @brighflame claimed in a previous post and you agree with him. I'm not going to cite the post. Easy within the last 4 pages.

Of course not. Nowhere have I said otherwise, so I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.

So it's not what the Bible teaches then? I know you believe the reformers, but are you Calvanist? Do you support TULIP complletely?

I'm just wondering, because it siunds like you're saying mankind is totally depraved, but not totally. Confusing

 

[Free]

I'm tired of your indefense of claiming mankind is at enmity with God from birth.

"Indefense" isn't a word, so I don't know what you're saying. If you're trying to say I haven't supported my position, I certainly have. Paul clearly states that unbelievers are at enmity with God and since we can't be believers from birth, we must necessarily be at enmity with God from birth. Remember, there is no middle ground--we are either spiritually alive or spiritually dead.

Everything in your post has been answered many times before and you ignore it.

You have made a number of claims that you have not supported or changed the plain meaning of Scripture in trying to create support.

Well Free,
You're saying enmity, hatred, utter contempt for God is how man is born into this world and cannot repent even if he's truly sorry.


So it's not what the Bible teaches then?

As I stated earlier, man cannot repent without God working first in man. And, as I also said, salvation is a work of God from beginning to end.

I know you believe the reformers, but are you Calvanist?

No, not completely.

Do you support TULIP complletely?

I don't know.

I'm just wondering, because it siunds like you're saying mankind is totally depraved, but not totally. Confusing

I'm pretty sure I said earlier in the thread that I do believe mankind is totally depraved. I just think that you and most everyone who disagrees has an incorrect understanding of what that means.

 

[electedbyhim]

My point is no parent in his right mind (and no parent is more in His right mind than God) wiyld want his son tortured. Especially the One human beings should become like.

I think asking the Holy Spirit if the Father was pleased at the miserable way His Som treated. Or we can just look at what Jesus' Father said,

Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying,They will reverence my son.also last unto them saying, They will reverence my son. Mk.12:6 KJV

Do you think that God di not know what would happen to His Son?

God foreordained it.

 

[journeyman]

Do you 1think that God di not know what would happen to His Son?

I think God expected mankind to reverence Jesus.

God foreordained it.

God forordained (decided from the beginning) to divide light from darkness. People who follow Jesus follow God.

 

[electedbyhim]

I think God expected mankind to reverence Jesus.

God forordained (decided from the beginning) to divide light from darkness. People who follow Jesus follow God.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

 

[journeyman]

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

Oh please. Peter means God knew beforehand His Son would be falsely charged. He's saying God knew they would murder His Son,

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were givent hee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


Gods' plan was to show the Jews Peter was speaking to that Jesus would still forgive their sin against Him,

Now when they heard this, Act.2:37

Now when they heard scripture they heard all their lives? Isn't it anazing they didn't understand scripture they thoyght they knew well?

Oh and then they repented.

 

[electedbyhim]

Oh please. Peter means God knew beforehand His Son would be falsely charged. He's saying God knew they would murder His Son,

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were givent hee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


Gods' plan was to show the Jews Peter was speaking to that Jesus would still forgive their sin against Him,

Now when they heard this, Act.2:37

Now when they heard scripture they heard all their lives? Isn't it anazing they didn't understand scripture they thoyght they knew well?

Oh and then they repented.

Oh please. Peter means God knew beforehand His Son would be falsely charged. He's saying God knew they would murder His Son,

Here is a good read for you, that is, if you really do read it.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

Delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God - Peter is saying Jesus' death was not an accident. Jesus was not a hapless victim Who helplessly fell into the hands of His enemies. This had always been from the beginning God's plan for the redemption of mankind.

Delivered over (1560)(ekdotos from ekdidomi = to deliver up) is a verbal adjective which means to be given up to the will of another, including the idea of betrayal. By Divine design (predetermined plan and foreknowledge) Jesus was betrayed by Judas in Mt 26:48 where betraying is the similar verb paradidomi meaning to give over to the power of another, in this context to the Jewish religious leaders. These leaders in turn "bound Him, and led Him away and delivered (paradidomi) Him to Pilate the governor. (Mt 27:2). Why did God allow this? "“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Jesus Himself recognized this divine plan was what had been written and was necessary (Luke 24:25-27, 46+) and so gave Himself of His own accord (Gal. 1:4; Eph. 5:2, 25; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14).

Predetermined (3724)(horizo from horos = boundary, limit; English horizon) means strictly speaking to limit and then to mark out with a boundary and figuratively to determine. In other words, the events surrounding Jesus' crucifixion were based on a definite, prearranged plan and purpose of God.

The words the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God are a Greek construction governed by the Granville-Sharp rule. This grammatical rule simply states that when two nouns are joined by the word “and” (Greek kai) and the first noun has the definite article (article = "the") in front of it and the second does not, both nouns refer to the same thing. In Acts 2:23, this rule shows that the word foreknowledge refers to the same act as does the phrase predetermined plan and is an additional description. Predetermined is in the perfect tense (past completed act with ongoing effect) which refers to the past act of God "putting limits upon something" (so to speak) with the present result that that certain thing (in this case the crucifixion of His Son) has been appointed or decreed. God did not just foreknow, but He actually foreordained the crucifixion. The predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God describes this consultation as one that had as its purpose the fixing of limits upon, thus determining the destiny of God's Son. In other words, in eternity past (2Ti 1:9+; Re 13:8+), the Trinity, determined that the Lord Jesus Christ should be given over into the hands of godless men to be crucified. The word foreknowledge (see below) refers to the same act, and therefore includes in it the truth indicated by the predetermined plan. Foreknowledge, however, adds the idea of the foreordination or appointment in advance of the Person whose destiny was decided upon in the plan referred to. Stated succinctly the Granville Sharp rule in Acts 2:23 equates foreknowledge to a predetermined plan. According to Peter, God's foreknowledge is a deliberate choice. God foreknew not by prior observation, but by bringing into reality His predetermined plan.

Plan (purpose)(1012)(boule) refers to that which has been purposed and planned. It was God's definite plan, His designated will. The Crucifixion was no accident, but was God’s design and set purpose (boule). In other words the Cross was God’s determined will, not just His inclination.

God did not just "foreknow" that Jesus would be crucified (which of course He did know), but what Peter is saying is that God actually foreordained it to occur. To foreordain means to dispose or appoint in advance.

We see this same thought repeated later in Acts...

Acts 4:27-28 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose (boule) predestined (proorizo from = before + horizo) to occur.

Acts 13:27-29 “For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. 28 “And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. 29 “When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, (a reference to OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus' Crucifixion) they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.

As J I Packer put it God "knows and foreknows, all things, and His foreknowledge is foreordination; He, therefore, will have the last word, both in world history and in the destiny of every man."

Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary says "God’s foreknowledge is much more than foresight. God does not know future events and human actions because He foresees them; He knows them because He wills them to happen. Thus God’s foreknowledge is an act of His will." (Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary)