ISRAEL

[Larry H]

A paradigm is created when one is told what to believe instead of searching out the scripture which created the paradigm. For example when reading Romans chapter eleven verse twenty six one could surmise that all descendents of Jacob will one day be saved.

Romans 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; hewill turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This can create a contradiction in scripture when comparing the verse with Romans chapter nine verse six.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL.

The verse makes clear that all those descendent of Jacob are not the true Israel in God’s view. And only in God’s view who authored the bible counts.

Galatians 6:15 NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION means anything; what counts is a new creation.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the ISRAEL OF GOD .

Galatians bring out the true Israel of God in made up of both Jews and Gentile, and this is the all Israel that will be saved

 

[Doulos Iesou]

A paradigm is created when one is told what to believe instead of searching out the scripture which created the paradigm. For example when reading Romans chapter eleven verse twenty six one could surmise that all descendents of Jacob will one day be saved.

Romans 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; hewill turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This can create a contradiction in scripture when comparing the verse with Romans chapter nine verse six.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL.

The verse makes clear that all those descendent of Jacob are not the true Israel in God’s view. And only in God’s view who authored the bible counts.

Galatians 6:15 NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION means anything; what counts is a new creation.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the ISRAEL OF GOD .

Galatians bring out the true Israel of God in made up of both Jews and Gentile, and this is the all Israel that will be saved

Hi before time, I for one will object to your interpretation of Romans 11, it seems you are running off to other contexts to try and say that Israel is now simply the Church. Let's examine Romans 11 and see what Paul is talking about here.

Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Ro 11:1(LEB)

Right from the get go we see that Paul is bringing up the issue of God possibly rejecting (utterly) his people, this people indeed being referenced here are the physical Israelites as Paul identifies himself as a descendant of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin.

 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise ⌊in your own sight⌋, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, Ro 11:25–26(LEB)

Also, if we examine the context of the passage you quoted we will find exegetically that it is all together inconsistent with your interpretation. Notice how Paul mentions in v.25 that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. Now is he saying that the Church.. the Israel of God has now been hardened? No of course not, he is talking about just as he said in v.7 that Israel has been hardened. Until when? Until the full member of the Gentiles has come in.. here we see that the Gentiles and Israelites are distinguished from each other, Israel hardened (partially) until the full member of the gentiles come in.

Then, he states in the next verse, "and so all Israel will be saved." You have to understand that the salvation of the Gentiles (ethnically) is serving to provoke Israel (ethnic Israel) to jealousy so that they too might be saved, and God might have mercy on all both Jew and Gentile.

If one properly reads Romans 9-11 they will see the purposes and justification of God in the problem of unbelieving Israel and his merciful and glorious purposes to use their unbelief and rejection to show mercy to more... only to then show it to them in the end. It's Paul's great unveiling of the ever expanding plans and purposes of God to save the world, to make for himself a people for his own possession from every nation tribe and tongue.

Therefore, I must whole heartily reject your interpretation which does not do justice to the text, and destroys this great truth being unveiled.

 

[Joe Domingo]

A paradigm is created when one is told what to believe instead of searching out the scripture which created the paradigm. For example when reading Romans chapter eleven verse twenty six one could surmise that all descendents of Jacob will one day be saved.

Romans 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; hewill turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This can create a contradiction in scripture when comparing the verse with Romans chapter nine verse six.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL.

The verse makes clear that all those descendent of Jacob are not the true Israel in God’s view. And only in God’s view who authored the bible counts.

Galatians 6:15 NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION means anything; what counts is a new creation.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the ISRAEL OF GOD .

Galatians bring out the true Israel of God in made up of both Jews and Gentile, and this is the all Israel that will be saved

You are without question - spot on.

Examine what Jesus does in this conversation with Jews who descend from the Patriarchs.

John 8:37-47
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.â€
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.â€
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.â€
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.â€
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.â€

Notice at first Jesus acknowledges their DNA, then he rejects their spirit.

Which one is more important ... to have Abraham's DNA? Or, to have Abraham's Faith?

And that is Exactly what Paul is teaching in your highlighted scriptures.

P.S. And to the OP - you may also want to visit this thread I created. It relates to this subject.
http://www.christianforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

[Larry H]

Hi beforetime, I for one will object to your interpretation of Romans 11, it seems youare running off to other contexts to try and say that Israel is nowsimply the Church. Let's examine Romans 11 and see what Paul is talking abouthere.

Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! ForI also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe ofBenjamin. Ro11:1(LEB)

Right from the get go we see that Paul is bringing up the issue of God possiblyrejecting (utterly) his people, this people indeed being referenced here arethe physical Israelites as Paul identifies himself as a descendant of Abrahamof the tribe of Benjamin.

For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that youwill not be wise ⌊in your own sight⌋, that a partial hardening has happened toIsrael, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israelwill be saved, just as it is written, Ro11:25–26(LEB)

Also, if we examine the context of the passage you quoted we will findexegetically that it is all together inconsistent with your interpretation.Notice how Paul mentions in v.25 that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. Now is hesaying that the Church.. the Israel of God has now been hardened? No of coursenot, he is talking about just as he said in v.7 that Israel has been hardened. Untilwhen? Until the full member of the Gentiles has come in.. here we see that theGentiles and Israelites are distinguished from each other, Israel hardened(partially) until the full member of the gentiles come in.

Then, he states in the next verse, "and so all Israel will be saved." Youhave to understand that the salvation of the Gentiles (ethnically) is servingto provoke Israel (ethnic Israel) tojealousy so that they too might be saved, and God might have mercy on all bothJew and Gentile.

If one properly reads Romans 9-11 they will see the purposes and justificationof God in the problem of unbelieving Israel and his merciful and glorious purposes to use their unbelief and rejection to show mercy to more...only to then show it to them in the end. It's Paul's great unveiling of theever expanding plans and purposes of God to save the world, to make for himselfa people for his own possession from every nation tribe and tongue.

Therefore, I must whole heartily reject your interpretation which does not dojustice to the text, and destroys this great truth being unveiled

That’s fine! I being a Jew ask this question? Do you consider every [all] Jews, because they are Jewish’s will be saved? Why did God chose the Jew to be His chosen. Fill in the blanks of Romans 9-11 within the time frame the letter was written. Then we can get back into Paul's theology concerning his blood line.

 

[Larry H]

You arewithout question - spot on.

Examine what Jesus does in this conversation with Jews who descend from thePatriarchs.

John8:37-47
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’sdescendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and youdo what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham isour father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works ofAbraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who hastold you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have oneFather—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were yourFather, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have Icome of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Whydo you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you wantto do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth,because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources,for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Hewho is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are notof God.”

Notice at first Jesus acknowledges their DNA, then he rejects their spirit.

Which one is more important ... to have Abraham's DNA? Or, to have Abraham'sFaith?

And that is Exactly what Paul is teaching in your highlighted scriptures.

P.S. And to the OP - you may also want to visit this thread I created. Itrelates to this subject.
http://www.christianforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=23

Well said Joe! I being a Jew might add the mystery in Romans11 is that the Gentile according to Paul share the same covenant of deliverance. This was always God’s plan, the One Body which is Christ.

Ephesians 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Paul makes a statement about the boastfulness of Israel calling its blindness. They did not understand the Gentile were fellow heirs with the Jew thinking they cannot be cut off. The New Covenant Israel stands because of the root of the Olive tree. However the root is not themselves but Christ.

Nevertheless it is the Jew first than the Gentile coming into this arranged dispensation. The simple truth is this is not speaking of at time frame, but in the manner all Israel, will be saved. This is the point of the Olive tree in Paul’s analogy.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jew and Gentile are carnal distinctions that are no longer valid as an indicator for inclusion as one of God's People.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Jew and Gentile are carnal distinctions that are no longer valid as an indicator for inclusion as one of God's People.

I totally agree.

All the more why Christians have no business seeing things outside of that reality.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That’s fine! I being a Jew ask this question? Do you consider every [all] Jews, because they are Jewish’s will be saved?

Great question before time, I don't think so. For one, I believe it is only those living at the time of the fullness of the Gentiles (which hasn't happened yet) who will be saved. Also, I do not believe it is speaking of every single individual Jew, but of national Israel corporately, there will be a massive turning to Christ having been provoked to jealousy by the inclusion of the Gentiles thus overcoming their partial hardness to the gospel.

Why did God chose the Jew to be His chosen.

Deuteronomy 7 answers this question, God said it was not because they were the greatest of all peoples that he chose to set his love on them, but because they are beloved according to their forefathers, and also I believe to achieve his purposes through that which is weak, Israel in the OT. In order to demonstrate his strength and might.

Fill in the blanks of Romans 9-11 within the time frame the letter was written. Then we can get back into Paul's theology concerning his blood line.

Well I think the issue I have and the mistake I see you making is having Paul make the same argument in Romans 9:6-7 as he does in say Galatians 3 or Romans 4. That God is perfectly in keeping with rejecting Israel simply because it is those who believe who are the children of Abraham thus, those who don't are not actually and thus acceptably rejected. That is not where Paul's argument goes, he doesn't appeal to a previously established teaching earlier in the letter, but he references the election of Jacob over Esau. Both of these children were Abraham's physical heirs and yet one was chosen to bring forth God's people while the other was rejected, and this was not due to their natural order of birth or anything else that might distinguish them, except that it be according to God's choice.

Romans 9-11 isn't making the narrative of ethnic Israel irrelevant in light of the Messiah, it is unveiling God's full purposes not only to show mercy to all the nations (Gentiles) but also to provoke to jealousy that nation which did not receive him, ethnic Israel, so that God might have mercy on all people. It is displaying that God has done through the Messiah Jesus, what Israel could not, and Israel's rejection before God is just, and yet God has not fully rejected ethnic Israel but at the present time preserved a Remnant of them chosen by grace. If you do not trace this though from Paul's lament in Romans 9:1-5 all the way to the end of Romans 11, then you are not thinking Paul's thoughts after him.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Joe Domingo]

That’s fine! I being a Jew ask this question? Do you consider every [all] Jews, because they are Jewish’s will be saved?

Great question before time, I don't think so. For one, I believe it is only those living at the time of the fullness of the Gentiles (which hasn't happened yet) who will be saved. Also, I do not believe it is speaking of every single individual Jew, but of national Israel corporately, there will be a massive turning to Christ having been provoked to jealousy by the inclusion of the Gentiles thus overcoming their partial hardness to the gospel.

Why did God chose the Jew to be His chosen.

Deuteronomy 7 answers this question, God said it was not because they were the greatest of all peoples that he chose to set his love on them, but because they are beloved according to their forefathers, and also I believe to achieve his purposes through that which is weak, Israel in the OT. In order to demonstrate his strength and might.

Fill in the blanks of Romans 9-11 within the time frame the letter was written. Then we can get back into Paul's theology concerning his blood line.

Well I think the issue I have and the mistake I see you making is having Paul make the same argument in Romans 9:6-7 as he does in say Galatians 3 or Romans 4. That God is perfectly in keeping with rejecting Israel simply because it is those who believe who are the children of Abraham thus, those who don't are not actually and thus acceptably rejected. That is not where Paul's argument goes, he doesn't appeal to a previously established teaching earlier in the letter, but he references the election of Jacob over Esau. Both of these children were Abraham's physical heirs and yet one was chosen to bring forth God's people while the other was rejected, and this was not due to their natural order of birth or anything else that might distinguish them, except that it be according to God's choice.

Romans 9-11 isn't making the narrative of ethnic Israel irrelevant in light of the Messiah, it is unveiling God's full purposes not only to show mercy to all the nations (Gentiles) but also to provoke to jealousy that nation which did not receive him, ethnic Israel, so that God might have mercy on all people. It is displaying that God has done through the Messiah Jesus, what Israel could not, and Israel's rejection before God is just, and yet God has not fully rejected ethnic Israel but at the present time preserved a Remnant of them chosen by grace. If you do not trace this though from Paul's lament in Romans 9:1-5 all the way to the end of Romans 11, then you are not thinking Paul's thoughts after him.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

But we don't know who ethnic Israel is - how can we just take someone's word for it?

Imagine if no records were supplied and we had to take someone's word for it that Jesus was of the Royal line of Judah ...

This is why the Gospel writers supplied the genealogy - so that we did not have to take someone's word for it and as well, it serves as irrefutable proof.

Now - who can prove today that they are from the loins of Israel ethnically?

 

[Joe Domingo]

I'm thinking that we are the ultimate realization of Abraham's chosen nation. That we are Abraham's seed through faith. That, we are the House of Israel and the House of Judah. That we are the dispersed amongst the Nations. The believer's of the Way. Some may want to call this replacement theology, that just sounds like name calling to me. I think that phrase comes out when one does not wish to deal with the subject any longer. A dismiss. But we need to work with what the Lord has done in his sheep. The priesthood has been transformed and so has the covenant, so why wouldn't the nation?

I look at John 8:31-47 and I see something that is made very clear.

Jesus is addressing Jews who believe him and yet the outcome of the conversation tragically turns deadly for them. At first Jesus acknowledges their ethnicity. Then he reveals to them that ethnicity is not a promise of salvation. That if they sin they will not abide in the house forever. Now what house is that? Could it be the Household of Faith? How about dividing that house in two? The House of Israel and the House of Judah ... and so he goes on to tell them that the Son abides in it forever. Now if we are in the Son - do we not abide in that same house? And then see the horrible turn of the conversation. He plainly tells them that their father is not Abraham, is not God, but in fact their father is the Devil.

This conversation that was had by the Master and those who were ethnically correct were not spiritually correct. So the emphasize lies not in the ethnicity but the spirit.

The single most disturbing part of this conversation IMHO is this, "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him" and yet, it turns out, that they didn't believe him. What a turn around! It is almost unbelievable.

"If you abide in My word" If. Jesus already knew the outcome.

Today, many believers say, the Jews will come back to the Lord ....

got news for you, we already have.

 

[reba]

The blood that is our veins has no bearing on salvation. Good grief if a person needs blood all that maters is the blood type...

 

[Sinthesis]

Great question before time, I don't think so. For one, I believe it is only those living at the time of the fullness of the Gentiles (which hasn't happened yet) who will be saved. Also, I do not believe it is speaking of every single individual Jew, but of national Israel corporately, there will be a massive turning to Christ having been provoked to jealousy by the inclusion of the Gentiles thus overcoming their partial hardness to the gospel.

Deuteronomy 7 answers this question, God said it was not because they were the greatest of all peoples that he chose to set his love on them, but because they are beloved according to their forefathers, and also I believe to achieve his purposes through that which is weak, Israel in the OT. In order to demonstrate his strength and might.

Fill in the blanks of Romans 9-11 within the time frame the letter was written. Then we can get back into Paul's theology concerning his blood line.

Well I think the issue I have and the mistake I see you making is having Paul make the same argument in Romans 9:6-7 as he does in say Galatians 3 or Romans 4. That God is perfectly in keeping with rejecting Israel simply because it is those who believe who are the children of Abraham thus, those who don't are not actually and thus acceptably rejected. That is not where Paul's argument goes, he doesn't appeal to a previously established teaching earlier in the letter, but he references the election of Jacob over Esau. Both of these children were Abraham's physical heirs and yet one was chosen to bring forth God's people while the other was rejected, and this was not due to their natural order of birth or anything else that might distinguish them, except that it be according to God's choice.

Romans 9-11 isn't making the narrative of ethnic Israel irrelevant in light of the Messiah, it is unveiling God's full purposes not only to show mercy to all the nations (Gentiles) but also to provoke to jealousy that nation which did not receive him, ethnic Israel, so that God might have mercy on all people. It is displaying that God has done through the Messiah Jesus, what Israel could not, and Israel's rejection before God is just, and yet God has not fully rejected ethnic Israel but at the present time preserved a Remnant of them chosen by grace. If you do not trace this though from Paul's lament in Romans 9:1-5 all the way to the end of Romans 11, then you are not thinking Paul's thoughts after him.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

But we don't know who ethnic Israel is - how can we just take someone's word for it?

Imagine if no records were supplied and we had to take someone's word for it that Jesus was of the Royal line of Judah ...

This is why the Gospel writers supplied the genealogy - so that we did not have to take someone's word for it and as well, it serves as irrefutable proof.

Now - who can prove today that they are from the loins of Israel ethnically?

Of course the Romans destroyed that proof, so while it was available to the Jewish hierarchy of the time to validate Jesus' fulfillment of messianic prophecy, today we must take the gospels' word for it. It is hypocritical to condemn anyone over any aspect of their physical heredity. Whom you follow spiritually eclipses whom you follow genetically.

 

[smaller]

A paradigm is created when one is told what to believe instead of searching out the scripture which created the paradigm. For example when reading Romans chapter eleven verse twenty six one could surmise that all descendents of Jacob will one day be saved.

Romans 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; hewill turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This can create a contradiction in scripture when comparing the verse with Romans chapter nine verse six.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL.

The verse makes clear that all those descendent of Jacob are not the true Israel in God’s view. And only in God’s view who authored the bible counts.

Galatians 6:15 NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION means anything; what counts is a new creation.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the ISRAEL OF GOD .

Galatians bring out the true Israel of God in made up of both Jews and Gentile, and this is the all Israel that will be saved

Hi before time, I for one will object to your interpretation of Romans 11, it seems you are running off to other contexts to try and say that Israel is now simply the Church. Let's examine Romans 11 and see what Paul is talking about here.

Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Ro 11:1(LEB)

Right from the get go we see that Paul is bringing up the issue of God possibly rejecting (utterly) his people, this people indeed being referenced here are the physical Israelites as Paul identifies himself as a descendant of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin.

For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise ⌊in your own sight⌋, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, Ro 11:25–26(LEB)

Also, if we examine the context of the passage you quoted we will find exegetically that it is all together inconsistent with your interpretation. Notice how Paul mentions in v.25 that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. Now is he saying that the Church.. the Israel of God has now been hardened? No of course not, he is talking about just as he said in v.7 that Israel has been hardened. Until when? Until the full member of the Gentiles has come in.. here we see that the Gentiles and Israelites are distinguished from each other, Israel hardened (partially) until the full member of the gentiles come in.

Then, he states in the next verse, "and so all Israel will be saved." You have to understand that the salvation of the Gentiles (ethnically) is serving to provoke Israel (ethnic Israel) to jealousy so that they too might be saved, and God might have mercy on all both Jew and Gentile.

If one properly reads Romans 9-11 they will see the purposes and justification of God in the problem of unbelieving Israel and his merciful and glorious purposes to use their unbelief and rejection to show mercy to more... only to then show it to them in the end. It's Paul's great unveiling of the ever expanding plans and purposes of God to save the world, to make for himself a people for his own possession from every nation tribe and tongue.

Therefore, I must whole heartily reject your interpretation which does not do justice to the text, and destroys this great truth being unveiled.

Will comment because this subject matter is among my favorites.

Paul tells us that unseeing unhearing Israel was 'made so' by Gods placement of the spirit of slumber upon them in Romans 11:8

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

This similar reference is made also by Jesus in the Gospels and by scriptures in the O.T. by the prophets.

Paul however brings this matter to the forefront by showing it to be a 'spirit' of slumber put upon them, by God no less. And before we get into whether they 'self deserved' to 'get it' or not let's just point to the fact that it was put upon them regardless, and that by God because Paul entirely remedies this matter by the time we get to ...

Romans 11:25-32. I say it's irrelevant 'how' that spirit of slumber was put upon them by God (deserved or undeserved) because Paul shows us in Romans 11:25-32 that those with the spirit of slumber put upon them are saved anyway. Paul uses a 'present' to 'previous' tense application of the term enemies here:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

If this was a 'future tense' situation Paul would have had to note it as such with the terms 'will be.' In short it is not a future tense matter at the time Paul wrote it, but would apply to 'all of Israel' inclusive of 'enemies of the Gospel' who were made that way for the sake of believing Gentiles.

Also if we see the 'spirit' of slumber put upon them, we can also go back to Romans 9 and see that it is the spirit of slumber that is not all of Israel is Israel as obviously that spirit of slumber was 'not them,' but put upon them.

Pulling back the veil a little further for those who are led to observe.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Joe Domingo]

If this was a 'future tense' situation Paul would have had to note it as such
with the terms 'will be.

Amen

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But we don't know who ethnic Israel is - how can we just take someone's word for it?

Imagine if no records were supplied and we had to take someone's word for it that Jesus was of the Royal line of Judah ...

This is why the Gospel writers supplied the genealogy - so that we did not have to take someone's word for it and as well, it serves as irrefutable proof.

Now - who can prove today that they are from the loins of Israel ethnically?

If you're advocating that we ignore the proper exegesis of Scripture on the basis of the difficulty of discovering in our time who would be ethnic Israel today and who would not. Then I suppose you and I have stronger differences.

However, Paul in Romans 11 appeals to his lineage as being of the tribe of Benjamin demonstrating that God had not rejected his people whom he foreknew, referring to ETHNIC Israel.

If you'd like to stick to the text, something that is objective and reliably determined I am more than happy to exegete any passages in Romans 9-11 to show you how Israel is used specifically as indicating Ethnic Israel in Romans 11:25-26.

Care to engage on that matter?

 

[Joe Domingo]

But we don't know who ethnic Israel is - how can we just take someone's word for it?

Imagine if no records were supplied and we had to take someone's word for it that Jesus was of the Royal line of Judah ...

This is why the Gospel writers supplied the genealogy - so that we did not have to take someone's word for it and as well, it serves as irrefutable proof.

Now - who can prove today that they are from the loins of Israel ethnically?

If you're advocating that we ignore the proper exegesis of Scripture on the basis of the difficulty of discovering in our time who would be ethnic Israel today and who would not. Then I suppose you and I have stronger differences.

However, Paul in Romans 11 appeals to his lineage as being of the tribe of Benjamin demonstrating that God had not rejected his people whom he foreknew, referring to ETHNIC Israel.

If you'd like to stick to the text, something that is objective and reliably determined I am more than happy to exegete any passages in Romans 9-11 to show you how Israel is used specifically as indicating Ethnic Israel in Romans 11:25-26.

Care to engage on that matter?

Thing of it is that there is a passage of over 1900 years between the time of Romans 11 and now. Many generations have passed and no documentation to follow lineages - I don't believe Romans 11 can help us to establish ethnicity today. So I'm not advocating that we ignore the proper exegesis of Scripture but I am advocating that we migrate to a different understanding. One that is spiritual and better harmonizes with the New Testament writers concerning Israel.

 

[Grappler]

Jew and Gentile are carnal distinctions that are no longer valid as an indicator for inclusion as one of God's People.

I totally agree.

All the more why Christians have no business seeing things outside of that reality.

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

Well, I support the Jews coming to know Jesus, not some kind of modern Zionist state for them as the inheritance is only promised to those who are in the Messiah now, and they have no hope unless they repent.

However, they are still in regards to election, God's choice, Beloved.

With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. Ro 11:28(LEB)

Let's spell this out a bit more, who is the enemy spoken of in this verse? That would be ethnic Israel. They are enemies for whose sake? Us, the Gentiles. They are in respect to election, dearly loved for the sake of who? The Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the Covenant Representatives of Israel.

Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. Dt 10:15(NASB)

Now if Israel in this verse is actually now the Church, how does that make sense at ALL!? That the Church is now an enemy for the sake of the... Church. But they are still elect, because of the Fathers?

 

[Larry H]

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul makes it clear there is no distinction between the Greek and a Jewish person.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Why would he than turn around in Israel’s favor and speak a future regeneration directed specifically for them.

Romans 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

He is explaining how these who were not His people, are now called His people, along with the cry of Isaiah concerning Israel that only a remnant would be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

I believe the only reason God chose the Jewish people arrived from the promises to Abraham, and the following are the people spoken of in Romans 11

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are togive him the name Jesus, because he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

[Deborah13]

However, Paul in Romans 11 appeals to his lineage as being of the tribe of Benjamin demonstrating that God had not rejected his people whom he foreknew, referring to ETHNIC Israel.

Yep, the very same Gospel that is presented to the Gentiles was/is presented to the ETHNIC Israel.

Paul was their living proof of it as he still is today.