ISRAEL

[Sinthesis]

Jew and Gentile are carnal distinctions that are no longer valid as an indicator for inclusion as one of God's People.

I totally agree.

All the more why Christians have no business seeing things outside of that reality.

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

I support the modern State of Israel so long as they express Judeo-Christian values, irrespective of whether they accept from and through Whom those values come. This allows me to support some of their policies on one hand while being critical of others, depending on the particulars of the situation. This is impartial judgement which applies to any nation state irrespective of their history. Blindly cursing others as Zionists ironically displays an ignorance of the real meaning of the word.

 

[jasoncran]

However, Paul in Romans 11 appeals to his lineage as being of the tribe of Benjamin demonstrating that God had not rejected his people whom he foreknew, referring to ETHNIC Israel.

Yep, the very same Gospel that is presented to the Gentiles was/is presented to the ETHNIC Israel.



Paul was their living proof of it as he still is today.

so is any saved Jew.

 

[Grappler]

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

Well, I support the Jews coming to know Jesus, not some kind of modern Zionist state for them as the inheritance is only promised to those who are in the Messiah now, and they have no hope unless they repent.

However, they are still in regards to election, God's choice, Beloved.

With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. Ro 11:28(LEB)

Let's spell this out a bit more, who is the enemy spoken of in this verse? That would be ethnic Israel. They are enemies for whose sake? Us, the Gentiles. They are in respect to election, dearly loved for the sake of who? The Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the Covenant Representatives of Israel.

Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. Dt 10:15(NASB)

Now if Israel in this verse is actually now the Church, how does that make sense at ALL!? That the Church is now an enemy for the sake of the... Church. But they are still elect, because of the Fathers?

What are you talking about?? Paul said in Galatians chapter 3...ALL in Christ have inherited the promises made to Abraham....how hard is that to understand? As for the "elect" i don't think you properly understand who the elect are. I as a child of God am also of the elect. How you equate Zionists Ashkenazi Jews as part of the elect is beyond me and beyond scripture.

 

[Grappler]

Jew and Gentile are carnal distinctions that are no longer valid as an indicator for inclusion as one of God's People.

I totally agree.

All the more why Christians have no business seeing things outside of that reality.

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

I support the modern State of Israel so long as they express Judeo-Christian values, irrespective of whether they accept from and through Whom those values come. This allows me to support some of their policies on one hand while being critical of others, depending on the particulars of the situation. This is impartial judgement which applies to any nation state irrespective of their history. Blindly cursing others as Zionists ironically displays an ignorance of the real meaning of the word.

Lol. I guess you don't understand that most of the "Jews" in Israel are not Christians. So how are they expressing Christian values? So being a Zionists is a "curse"?? That is what you said. Talk about displaying ignorance...i never once cursed anyone as Zionists...most people who claim to be Zionists are proud of that...aren't you?

 

[Larry H]

Zionism

“A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century inresponse to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homelandin Palestine.Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israelâ€

I’m not familiar with the concept. Can someone fill in the details of what this has to do with Romans 9-11 or the word of God? My research is always scriptural as I do my best to stay clear of worldly present day occurrences the best I can.

 

[Grappler]

Zionism

“A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century inresponse to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homelandin Palestine.Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel”

I’m not familiar with the concept. Can someone fill in the details of what this has to do with Romans 9-11 or the word of God? My research is always scriptural as I do my best to stay clear of worldly present day occurrences the best I can.

I have never seen anything in scripture that would tell me that the modern Jewish state is mentioned in scripture except maybe Rev. 2:9 and 3:9. Also possibly Rev. 11:8.

 

[smaller]

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul makes it clear there is no distinction between the Greek and a Jewish person.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Why would he than turn around in Israel’s favor and speak a future regeneration directed specifically for them.

Romans 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

He is explaining how these who were not His people, are now called His people, along with the cry of Isaiah concerning Israel that only a remnant would be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

I believe the only reason God chose the Jewish people arrived from the promises to Abraham, and the following are the people spoken of in Romans 11

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are togive him the name Jesus, because he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Paul clarifies this matter of the 'remnant' saved to be a matter in time, not eternity.

Romans 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It has always been that way. God has always 'reserved' and 'called' a remnant of Israel, called by Divine Election and Grace just as we are, even at present.

s

 

[smaller]

Zionism

“A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century inresponse to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homelandin Palestine.Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel”

I’m not familiar with the concept. Can someone fill in the details of what this has to do with Romans 9-11 or the word of God? My research is always scriptural as I do my best to stay clear of worldly present day occurrences the best I can.

There are so many spins on Israel of the flesh and the themes of how Israel plays out pro and con in various churches I've lost track of them all.

s

 

[justpassingby]

Since the title of this thread is “Israel” I decided to include the following.
“Israeli art students who shadowed 9-11 hijackers were part of a major Mossad intelligence operation”

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=4919


At the time of the above I did not see the US press covering it. This makes me suspicious of the article. Did it or did it not happen as reported, or should I say not reported?

 

[justpassingby]

I post the following because I just cannot believe it is true. Can someone here verify this for me, it is true?
Ultra-orthodoxJews 'must stop religious abuse'

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/17/religion.Israel

 

[jeff77]

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.

I clicked on the link and read the article and all I can say is wow!!, that is bad.
However I think that is Israel is very important to Christians because God says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel shall be cursed. I believe God uses the United States to protect Israel as we are a Christian Nation and Israel is under constant threat.

 

[jasoncran]

yes the haredi and others do hate Christians.but don't hold all jews like that. my family wouldn't do that. if that was the case they wouldn't talk to me. I don't hide what I believe from them but I don't also go to their homes nor their wall on fb and post scripture.

 

[Grappler]

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.

I clicked on the link and read the article and all I can say is wow!!, that is bad.
However I think that is Israel is very important to Christians because God says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel shall be cursed. I believe God uses the United States to protect Israel as we are a Christian Nation and Israel is under constant threat.

God never said anything about blessing modern day Zionists Israel. What you are talking about was what YHWH told Abraham almost 4000 years ago...why would you apply that to modern day Zionists Israel who does not worship our God nor are 90% of them even Semites??

 

[jeff77]

God never said anything about blessing modern day Zionists Israel. What you are talking about was what YHWH told Abraham almost 4000 years ago...why would you apply that to modern day Zionists Israel who does not worship our God nor are 90% of them even Semites??

Ok, well I just learned something new then. Do you support a Palestinian State then?
I actually thought it was talking about the physical place of Israel and not the people in it.

 

[Larry H]

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.

I clicked on the link and read the article and all I can say is wow!!, that is bad.
However I think that is Israel is very important to Christians because God says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel shall be cursed. I believe God uses the United States to protect Israel as we are a Christian Nation and Israel is under constant threat.

God never said anything about blessing modern day Zionists Israel. What you are talking about was what YHWH told Abraham almost 4000 years ago...why would you apply that to modern day Zionists Israel who does not worship our God nor are 90% of them even Semites??

Grappler I can see you’re becoming a preterist; I agree that God was speaking to Abraham and not people living in our time frame. This is what happens when Christians apply past events to modern times. Just kidding!

 

[Ryan]

New Covenant says what in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8? Let's look at the highlights of what will happen to modern day Israel:

Jeremiah 31
8 “Behold, I am bringing them from the north country,
And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together;
A great company, they will return here.
9 “With weeping they will come,

10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare in the coastlands afar off,
And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him
And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.”

20 “Is Ephraim My dear son?
Is he a delightful child?
Indeed, as often as I have spoken against him,
I certainly still remember him;
Therefore My heart yearns for him;
I will surely have mercy on him,” declares the Lord.

34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.




If you say you are part of the New Covenant, this is what God is saying will happen as well. Hebrews 8 one can look on their own as it is the same language.

 

[Grappler]

God never said anything about blessing modern day Zionists Israel. What you are talking about was what YHWH told Abraham almost 4000 years ago...why would you apply that to modern day Zionists Israel who does not worship our God nor are 90% of them even Semites??

Ok, well I just learned something new then. Do you support a Palestinian State then?
I actually thought it was talking about the physical place of Israel and not the people in it.

As Christians i don't think we should necessarily support anything in the Middle East except the spread of Christianity. We don't need to get caught up in all that nonsense going on over there...as i said before Muslims need Jesus and Zionists Israelis need Jesus...that should be our focus.

 

[Grappler]

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.

I clicked on the link and read the article and all I can say is wow!!, that is bad.
However I think that is Israel is very important to Christians because God says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel shall be cursed. I believe God uses the United States to protect Israel as we are a Christian Nation and Israel is under constant threat.

God never said anything about blessing modern day Zionists Israel. What you are talking about was what YHWH told Abraham almost 4000 years ago...why would you apply that to modern day Zionists Israel who does not worship our God nor are 90% of them even Semites??

Grappler I can see you’re becoming a preterist; I agree that God was speaking to Abraham and not people living in our time frame. This is what happens when Christians apply past events to modern times. Just kidding!

What are you kidding about?

 

[Sinthesis]

Exactly. And all the more reason to NOT just blindly support the modern Zionists state of Israel and call them God's chosen people as many here in the U. S. do.

I support the modern State of Israel so long as they express Judeo-Christian values, irrespective of whether they accept from and through Whom those values come. This allows me to support some of their policies on one hand while being critical of others, depending on the particulars of the situation. This is impartial judgement which applies to any nation state irrespective of their history. Blindly cursing others as Zionists ironically displays an ignorance of the real meaning of the word.

Lol. I guess you don't understand that most of the "Jews" in Israel are not Christians. So how are they expressing Christian values? So being a Zionists is a "curse"?? That is what you said. Talk about displaying ignorance...i never once cursed anyone as Zionists...most people who claim to be Zionists are proud of that...aren't you?

They are called Judeo-Christian values for good reason. Every time you use the term 'Zionist' it is clear that your intent is to curse and condemn the modern State of Israel with its associated people out of the exact same spirit of haughty ignorance that blinds the slaves of Islam. Ironically, if you knew the actual biblical meaning of Zionist you would then claim that title for yourself, while the last thing you would do is apply it to those you so obviously despise, just as you've done with the name Israel.

 

[Adullam]

A paradigm is created when one is told what to believe instead of searching out the scripture which created the paradigm. For example when reading Romans chapter eleven verse twenty six one could surmise that all descendents of Jacob will one day be saved.

Romans 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; hewill turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This can create a contradiction in scripture when comparing the verse with Romans chapter nine verse six.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL.

The verse makes clear that all those descendent of Jacob are not the true Israel in God’s view. And only in God’s view who authored the bible counts.

Galatians 6:15 NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION means anything; what counts is a new creation.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the ISRAEL OF GOD .

Galatians bring out the true Israel of God in made up of both Jews and Gentile, and this is the all Israel that will be saved

Exactly!