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-It is Finished- (means what??)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elijah674
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What I have always struggled with is salvation which comes through being a disciple of Jesus being a"free" gift yet we are told to"count the cost" if salvation comes through discipleship and discipleship has a cost how is it free.

Salvation does not come through being a disciple for Jesus. Salvation comes from His Grace through Faith In Christ. His Grace is a free Gift to anyone who believes on Christ dying and rising again for them.

John 6:40~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If we believe that our discipleship saves us, we will always struggle with salvation.

Being a disciple of Jesus is a choice for the believer. We can choose to follow His plan for us or we can choose not to. Experiential sanctification is 'counting the Cost'. It does Not affect our positional sanctification in Christ.
 
It is finished.....Gods plan for salvation was complete through Christ on the cross. John 16:9

"It is finished" also completed Judgement for Satan and the fallen angels. John 16:11.......A very important aspect of the Cross that is often overlooked by Christians today, it is called the Angelic Conflict or the kingdom conflict. The unseen war that rages around us. But its conclusion is set in Stone through the "finished" work of the Cross.

Eph 3:10~~so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

A part of the mystery doctrine and a part of the "It is finished" that most Church age believers have not a clue about.
 
What I have always struggled with is salvation which comes through being a disciple of Jesus being a"free" gift yet we are told to"count the cost" if salvation comes through discipleship and discipleship has a cost how is it free.

Salvation does not come through being a disciple for Jesus. Salvation comes from His Grace through Faith In Christ. His Grace is a free Gift to anyone who believes on Christ dying and rising again for them.

John 6:40~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If we believe that our discipleship saves us, we will always struggle with salvation.

Being a disciple of Jesus is a choice for the believer. We can choose to follow His plan for us or we can choose not to. Experiential sanctification is 'counting the Cost'. It does Not affect our positional sanctification in Christ.

Interesting! How about these in John 12 (but very faulty!)

[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers [[also many believed on him;]] but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

It appears that True FAITH has works to follow! James 2:22

--Elijah
 
Yes they were saved people. It was the same thing Peter did when the roaster was crowing. Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ would have thrown Peter In Hell at that time if the people around him killed him while he was denying the Lord?
 
What I have always struggled with is salvation which comes through being a disciple of Jesus being a"free" gift yet we are told to"count the cost" if salvation comes through discipleship and discipleship has a cost how is it free.

Salvation does not come through being a disciple for Jesus. Salvation comes from His Grace through Faith In Christ. His Grace is a free Gift to anyone who believes on Christ dying and rising again for them.

John 6:40~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If we believe that our discipleship saves us, we will always struggle with salvation.

Being a disciple of Jesus is a choice for the believer. We can choose to follow His plan for us or we can choose not to. Experiential sanctification is 'counting the Cost'. It does Not affect our positional sanctification in Christ.

So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.
 
What I have always struggled with is salvation which comes through being a disciple of Jesus being a"free" gift yet we are told to"count the cost" if salvation comes through discipleship and discipleship has a cost how is it free.

Salvation does not come through being a disciple for Jesus. Salvation comes from His Grace through Faith In Christ. His Grace is a free Gift to anyone who believes on Christ dying and rising again for them.

John 6:40~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If we believe that our discipleship saves us, we will always struggle with salvation.

Being a disciple of Jesus is a choice for the believer. We can choose to follow His plan for us or we can choose not to. Experiential sanctification is 'counting the Cost'. It does Not affect our positional sanctification in Christ.

So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.

Yes. Acts 16:31 is salvation. In fact here is a curve ball for ya.

Our "churches" teach a nice moral life to christians today. That is their focus and it gets pounded into our head. So we leave that building with a erroneous idea of what the Christian life is really about.

We go about life and judge immorality as not being saved. "He can't do that if he is a Christian!"

And we go about life and judge morality as being saved." He lives a nice and Good life, he must be a Christian."

And the truth is the "nice moral" guy is relying on His good works and His "discipleship" to save Him and God looks at the heart. Has He ever truly put his faith in Christ?

And the truth is the "immoral" guy who is truly saved was not fed the true Christian doctrine after He was saved and left it all together. Fed up with all the programs and gimmicks of religion and our "churches." And has made a choice not to go with God and not to seek His truth from a doctrinal teacher......But still saved.
 
So judging a tree by its fruit doesn't work and a bad tree can bring forth good fruit,if this is true shouldn't the bible be much shorter than it is...why 66 books to say that all you have to do is believe ?
 
So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.
No one can cleanse away their sin guilt and be made legally righteous before God on the merit of doing acts of righteousness.

There is nothing you can do that can make up for your sin and erase the guilt of that sin...except believing that Christ will wipe it away for the asking.

We demonstrate our continued faith and believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make and keep us righteous before God by making a commitment to live free of that which made us guilty in the first place. That's the discipleship part of salvation.
 
So judging a tree by its fruit doesn't work and a bad tree can bring forth good fruit,if this is true shouldn't the bible be much shorter than it is...why 66 books to say that all you have to do is believe ?

That verse is talking about true teachers and false teachers. Teachers sent by God and teachers sent by the world. Teaches sent by God will produce doctrinal teachings and the worldly teacher will produce bad fruit and cannot produce true doctrinal teaching.

Matthew 7:15-23, – “Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16) “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17) “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears
bad fruit. 18) “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19) “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20) “So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22) “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23) “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The false teaching of lordship salvation will try to get one to believe..... “You will know them by their fruits” means one’s eternal status can be determined by his behavior.
A good tree [true believer] cannot produce bad fruit [wickedness] nor can a bad tree [unbeliever] produce good fruit [good works]. Every tree [professing Christian] that does not bear good fruit [good works] will be thrown into the fire [go to hell]. 21) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Those who profess to be Christians but do not do the will of the Father producing good works will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Grace position(truth).....: This is about unbelieving false prophets who look, talk, and act like believers but aren’t.
You will know them by their fruits . . . these are unbelievers and their fruits are what they say, their false doctrines, not their outward appearance or behavior. A good tree [true prophet] cannot produce bad fruit [give false doctrine], nor can a bad tree [false prophet] produce good fruit [give true doctrine]. “Not
everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven [there are those who claim to believe in Christ but are lying] but he who does the will of My Father [the will of the Father is to believe in Christ, John 6:40] who is in heaven.

What is Good? We are taught to feed the Poor. So we feed the poor. Is it Good? If the man feeding the poor keeps His mouth shut and just feeds the poor, every man around him will call it Good. But God looks at the heart and the man wanted recognition for feeding the poor. To God it was evil.
 
So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.
No one can cleanse away their sin guilt and be made legally righteous before God on the merit of doing acts of righteousness.

There is nothing you can do that can make up for your sin and erase the guilt of that sin...except believing that Christ will wipe it away for the asking.

We demonstrate our continued faith and believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make and keep us righteous before God by making a commitment to live free of that which made us guilty in the first place. That's the discipleship part of salvation.

And it comes at a cost ? a cost that we are told to consider and calculate ?
 
So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.
No one can cleanse away their sin guilt and be made legally righteous before God on the merit of doing acts of righteousness.

There is nothing you can do that can make up for your sin and erase the guilt of that sin...except believing that Christ will wipe it away for the asking.

We demonstrate our continued faith and believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make and keep us righteous before God by making a commitment to live free of that which made us guilty in the first place. That's the discipleship part of salvation.

And it comes at a cost ? a cost that we are told to consider and calculate ?

Yes. No question about it. That's what Christ said.

That cost is total surrender.
 
So one can not follow Jesus and be saved.
No one can cleanse away their sin guilt and be made legally righteous before God on the merit of doing acts of righteousness.

There is nothing you can do that can make up for your sin and erase the guilt of that sin...except believing that Christ will wipe it away for the asking.

We demonstrate our continued faith and believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make and keep us righteous before God by making a commitment to live free of that which made us guilty in the first place. That's the discipleship part of salvation.

And it comes at a cost ? a cost that we are told to consider and calculate ?

Yes. No question about it. That's what Christ said.

That cost is total surrender.

I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.
 
And it comes at a cost ? a cost that we are told to consider and calculate ?

Yes. No question about it. That's what Christ said.

That cost is total surrender.

I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.

So what is the point of the "cost" there is no cost to something that is free,there is no reason to consider cost when something is free...indeed there is no reason to even mention cost when something is free...your doctrine is very popular these days and the word or label "Christian" has come to be meaningless.I submit that salvation is a free gift and that the desire and strength to pursue discipleship is a free gift and anyone who does not posess the desire for discipleship to some degree(you are correct,no one has done it perfectly)and pursues a life of habitual sin has neither received salvation or discipleship because there has been no new birth of the spirit and heart,old things have not passed away and things remain as they were before.
 
So judging a tree by its fruit doesn't work and a bad tree can bring forth good fruit,if this is true shouldn't the bible be much shorter than it is...why 66 books to say that all you have to do is believe ?

Hey guy, that is a good one! But the reason why is that it takes time to BECOME MORRALY 'PERFECT!'
And folks can go either way.

--Elijah
 
It is finished means that the "Blood of Jesus" has done it all!
 
So judging a tree by its fruit doesn't work and a bad tree can bring forth good fruit,if this is true shouldn't the bible be much shorter than it is...why 66 books to say that all you have to do is believe ?

Hey guy, that is a good one! But the reason why is that it takes time to BECOME MORRALY 'PERFECT!'
And folks can go either way.

--Elijah
Is a changed heart and life the evidence of a new birth ? or is a changed heart and life the option available after the new birth ? if so the term be "born again" has little meaning since the new birth left the person as they were before.
 
And it comes at a cost ? a cost that we are told to consider and calculate ?

Yes. No question about it. That's what Christ said.

That cost is total surrender.

I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.

So what is the point of the "cost" there is no cost to something that is free,there is no reason to consider cost when something is free...indeed there is no reason to even mention cost when something is free...your doctrine is very popular these days and the word or label "Christian" has come to be meaningless.I submit that salvation is a free gift and that the desire and strength to pursue discipleship is a free gift and anyone who does not posess the desire for discipleship to some degree(you are correct,no one has done it perfectly)and pursues a life of habitual sin has neither received salvation or discipleship because there has been no new birth of the spirit and heart,old things have not passed away and things remain as they were before.

The cost is not in salvation. The cost is in this life in our condition. we have rewards and benefits waiting for us if we "count the cost"...rank,crowns,jewels,gold,silver...they all come at a cost. But salvation was paid for by Christ.

Discipleship is not a part of salvation. Discipleship is part of spiritual maturity in Christ. We are all saved as babes in Christ. we can go to heaven as babes or we can pick up our cross and count the cost and Go to heaven as spiritually mature believers.

Just for clarification, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the least popular doctrine in this world. Yours is very popular....Lordship salvation.

Just read your post. Where is Christ in your salvation message? Where is Faith? where is Grace?

what you are not seeing is the believers on going sanctification in this world. It is our choice. We do it or do not do it in our life.

It is the doctrine of POSITION and the Doctrine of CONDITION and they are separate and individual doctrines.

Position in Christ= salvation and eternal security. Its a done deal. no changing it.

Condition in this life= Growing or not growing in that salvation(Grace). Continuing in the knowledge or not continuing in that knowledge. Experiential sanctification is going from a babe in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ. Always in Christ though.

Our position in Christ never changes. We can move along in our condition in this life and grow, we can stay where we are and we can even go backwards. However, our position in Christ never changes.
 
I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.

So what is the point of the "cost" there is no cost to something that is free,there is no reason to consider cost when something is free...indeed there is no reason to even mention cost when something is free...your doctrine is very popular these days and the word or label "Christian" has come to be meaningless.I submit that salvation is a free gift and that the desire and strength to pursue discipleship is a free gift and anyone who does not posess the desire for discipleship to some degree(you are correct,no one has done it perfectly)and pursues a life of habitual sin has neither received salvation or discipleship because there has been no new birth of the spirit and heart,old things have not passed away and things remain as they were before.

The cost is not in salvation. The cost is in this life in our condition. we have rewards and benefits waiting for us if we "count the cost"...rank,crowns,jewels,gold,silver...they all come at a cost. But salvation was paid for by Christ.

Discipleship is not a part of salvation. Discipleship is part of spiritual maturity in Christ. We are all saved as babes in Christ. we can go to heaven as babes or we can pick up our cross and count the cost and Go to heaven as spiritually mature believers.

Just for clarification, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the least popular doctrine in this world. Yours is very popular....Lordship salvation.

Just read your post. Where is Christ in your salvation message? Where is Faith? where is Grace?

what you are not seeing is the believers on going sanctification in this world. It is our choice. We do it or do not do it in our life.

It is the doctrine of POSITION and the Doctrine of CONDITION and they are separate and individual doctrines.

Position in Christ= salvation and eternal security. Its a done deal. no changing it.

Condition in this life= Growing or not growing in that salvation(Grace). Continuing in the knowledge or not continuing in that knowledge. Experiential sanctification is going from a babe in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ. Always in Christ though.

Our position in Christ never changes. We can move along in our condition in this life and grow, we can stay where we are and we can even go backwards. However, our position in Christ never changes.

So a person can be saved with no change in their heart soul or life ? I am not talking about on going sanctification,i'm talking about no change at all throughout a person's life....also what is the point of the warnings against sin in the NT and that those who "practice" such things shall not inherit eternal life.
 
I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.

So what is the point of the "cost" there is no cost to something that is free,there is no reason to consider cost when something is free...indeed there is no reason to even mention cost when something is free...your doctrine is very popular these days and the word or label "Christian" has come to be meaningless.I submit that salvation is a free gift and that the desire and strength to pursue discipleship is a free gift and anyone who does not posess the desire for discipleship to some degree(you are correct,no one has done it perfectly)and pursues a life of habitual sin has neither received salvation or discipleship because there has been no new birth of the spirit and heart,old things have not passed away and things remain as they were before.

The cost is not in salvation. The cost is in this life in our condition. we have rewards and benefits waiting for us if we "count the cost"...rank,crowns,jewels,gold,silver...they all come at a cost. But salvation was paid for by Christ.

Discipleship is not a part of salvation. Discipleship is part of spiritual maturity in Christ. We are all saved as babes in Christ. we can go to heaven as babes or we can pick up our cross and count the cost and Go to heaven as spiritually mature believers.

Just for clarification, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the least popular doctrine in this world. Yours is very popular....Lordship salvation.

Just read your post. Where is Christ in your salvation message? Where is Faith? where is Grace?

what you are not seeing is the believers on going sanctification in this world. It is our choice. We do it or do not do it in our life.

It is the doctrine of POSITION and the Doctrine of CONDITION and they are separate and individual doctrines.

Position in Christ= salvation and eternal security. Its a done deal. no changing it.

Condition in this life= Growing or not growing in that salvation(Grace). Continuing in the knowledge or not continuing in that knowledge. Experiential sanctification is going from a babe in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ. Always in Christ though.

Our position in Christ never changes. We can move along in our condition in this life and grow, we can stay where we are and we can even go backwards. However, our position in Christ never changes.

So a person can be saved with no change in their heart soul or life ? I am not talking about on going sanctification,i'm talking about no change at all throughout a person's life....also what is the point of the warnings against sin in the NT and that those who "practice" such things shall not inherit eternal life.

No, God makes a heart of stone into life.

The thing is, man cannot see that change. only God can change and see that change.

So ,I can spend my whole life trying to see that changed heart and never see it. I am Just a man and cannot look into another mans heart.

That is why we have 66 books. It is for us to grow in our salvation. Salvation is simple, living the christian way of life is a lifelong adventure.

What we may look for to prove that someone else is saved or not is not up to us. We do not have and will not have all the information that we need to have to come to a judgement. Some of the changes that we think we need to see we will never see from some people.

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.
 
uhm the bible is for our personal relationship? ok that is agreeable but well how then by it do we know if we have the seeds of repentence ? if we can NOT use to discern false doctrines then what?
im not to keen of the book the other gospel. if we love our spouses do we not grow and they learn to grow with us. it seems that we choose to grow with them or away with them. that I think is what @mountain men means. jesus warned some of the churches to return to thy first love. why would he warn them if they already had it all?we are commanded to grow in faith, do we fail that at times? yes but well god has his ways of pushing us towards him via trials and tribulations. he has done with me.
 
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