-It is Finished- (means what??)

[gr8grace]

so, a question? What do your ears hear with eph 2:8?

Welcome one and all to the scripture comparison hour where we take one scripture and attempt to make the rest of scripture null and void and give the atheist,agnostics all those with itching ears everything they have always wanted to hear.....applause applause,cheers cheers......

Just wondering what you thought. You have the freedom not to discuss scripture.

 

[Elijah674]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

 

[Mountain Man]

so, a question? What do your ears hear with eph 2:8?

Welcome one and all to the scripture comparison hour where we take one scripture and attempt to make the rest of scripture null and void and give the atheist,agnostics all those with itching ears everything they have always wanted to hear.....applause applause,cheers cheers......

Just wondering what you thought. You have the freedom not to discuss scripture.

And you have the freedom to take one scripture and propose that it trumps all

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[gr8grace]

so, a question? What do your ears hear with eph 2:8?

Welcome one and all to the scripture comparison hour where we take one scripture and attempt to make the rest of scripture null and void and give the atheist,agnostics all those with itching ears everything they have always wanted to hear.....applause applause,cheers cheers......

Just wondering what you thought. You have the freedom not to discuss scripture.

And you have the freedom to take one scripture and propose that it trumps all

I never said that it trumps all. I just started with one very forceful verse that backs up the many verses that say Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So what do you think Ehp 2:8 is saying? I gave you my understanding of it.

Acts 16:31 ties in with Eph 2:8 ~~n ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice, which disproves hyper-Calvinism and those who deny the existence of a free will. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

We can go onto John 3:16-18, John 6:40, John 3:15, John 6:47,John 3:36 and many more that back up belief and only belief to be saved.

 

[Mountain Man]

Just wondering what you thought. You have the freedom not to discuss scripture.

And you have the freedom to take one scripture and propose that it trumps all

I never said that it trumps all. I just started with one very forceful verse that backs up the many verses that say Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So what do you think Ehp 2:8 is saying? I gave you my understanding of it.

Acts 16:31 ties in with Eph 2:8 ~~n ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice, which disproves hyper-Calvinism and those who deny the existence of a free will. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

We can go onto John 3:16-18, John 6:40, John 3:15, John 6:47,John 3:36 and many more that back up belief and only belief to be saved.

Sure,these days we can go in many and dare I say broad directions to say that the sinful nature of man wins and the holiness of God loses

 

[gr8grace]

Just wondering what you thought. You have the freedom not to discuss scripture.

And you have the freedom to take one scripture and propose that it trumps all

I never said that it trumps all. I just started with one very forceful verse that backs up the many verses that say Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So what do you think Ehp 2:8 is saying? I gave you my understanding of it.

Acts 16:31 ties in with Eph 2:8 ~~n ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice, which disproves hyper-Calvinism and those who deny the existence of a free will. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

We can go onto John 3:16-18, John 6:40, John 3:15, John 6:47,John 3:36 and many more that back up belief and only belief to be saved.

Sure,these days we can go in many and dare I say broad directions to say that the sinful nature of man wins and the holiness of God loses

Do you want to discuss these scriptures?

If I am wrong I pray to stay open to the truth of these scriptures. But from what i have studied, I have not had a person convince me other wise. Can you give me your take on Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31?

 

[Mountain Man]

I never said that it trumps all. I just started with one very forceful verse that backs up the many verses that say Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So what do you think Ehp 2:8 is saying? I gave you my understanding of it.

Acts 16:31 ties in with Eph 2:8 ~~n ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice, which disproves hyper-Calvinism and those who deny the existence of a free will. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

We can go onto John 3:16-18, John 6:40, John 3:15, John 6:47,John 3:36 and many more that back up belief and only belief to be saved.

Sure,these days we can go in many and dare I say broad directions to say that the sinful nature of man wins and the holiness of God loses

Do you want to discuss these scriptures?

If I am wrong I pray to stay open to the truth of these scriptures. But from what i have studied, I have not had a person convince me other wise. Can you give me your take on Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31?

Our disagreement is not about whether or not salvation is a free gift,it is about what the result of that free gift is,i say it is a changed heart and life,you seem to say that it produces nothing in the way of change or that it is simply an option...is it realy necessary for me to list all the scripture that says otherwise ?

 

[jasoncran]

I understand that but you misunderstood that mountain men was saying just what you said to me. that men if they did really repent wouldn't lie, fornicate, cheat and steal. they would live holy and raise children in the admonition of the lord.

And I am telling you both, that the bible says that we SHOULD walk in them. It never says that we WILL walk in those good works. And the new creature that we get at the moment of salvation CANNOT do any of those things. But our flesh(that stands condemned at the cross) can do those things and some continue their whole lives doing those things. But the new Creature(born again) we get at the moment of salvation is sin free and the creation we go to heaven in. A babe in Christ(never feeding the new creature) or spiritually mature(feeding the new creature)

We can live in the old flesh or we can live in the new creature. Why live in the flesh when that part of us will never go to the kingdom. God never takes the New Creature in Christ away from a born again believer, no matter how much we starve it.

so you would call a so called believer that you know from his birth that doesn't show any change a saved men just because he prayed? that isn't eternal security. I know pastors who preach that and will say that man never believed and repented. there has to be fruits to one's repentance. would you believe any person was sorrowful if they hurt you and never stopped hurting you when and after they said sorry? NO, yet you seem to teach that God does accept that.

grace is this. we repent, we desire to change because we Love God, we want to be like him. slowly we do change as he does it. there is evidence of some change as we don't curse, lie and steal as before, does that mean we don't slip? no, does that mean we cant grow more? NO.

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

for the record its never denied that a man can pray and die the next day, but really there are teachers who teach that men can be babes in Christ and never grow or change from their old ways and be saved. I have heard it. if you really fell in love with the savior there would be some changes. I know I was a bisexual male with stealing habits and occulting leanings when I repented. long story short. I don't steal and I don't have sex with men and I don't do the occult. I am not perfect but its been what 17 yrs. by this time one should have some fruit. some do have more fruits and do grow faster. I don't see that all grow at the same rate. but well each must have some change. otherwise why would the bible mention putting the death to the old members of the flesh?walking in the spirit?or to renew the mind in the washing of the regeneration, or die dialy?

 

[dadof10]

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

The two sentences in red seem to contradict. First you say you "will never know" if a man is saved even if you "watch" his "works", then turn around and say you could tell that your friend Mitch was saved because of what you SAW on his face in one night. You can tell by the look on someone's face if he is saved, yet not by watching him perform good deeds throughout his life? Doesn't James 2 claim you CAN tell if a person is justified by their works? I don't know of any passages that say you can "show" you are saved by having a certain look on your face.

Not only that, you believe Mitch is still saved even though he went back to his previous "rough character" life after conversion? Don't his works "show" whether he is justified or not? If you are convinced he was saved in the hospital (and I have no reason to doubt that he truly was), wouldn't his actions after he got out tell you that he was saved, then LOST that salvation, making OSAS false? Doesn't repentance matter?

 

[jasoncran]

nevermind I didn't see that. and yet grace their wouldn't allow a crook to roam the streets stealing and then say don't call the cops I promise not steal, and the next day he does it again. im sure she would call the cops. im sorry what part of you must believe and upon that belief act don't you get. salvation is a gift but it doesn't merit one nor license unchanged hearts. nobody is saying one has to be perfect just show that you do want to live better as you realized that you were a sinner! god didn't take the entire issues of my life away in just one second but I went from someone who didn't believe in the trinity, the idea of the bible might be complete cause I was intellectually convinced. no I met god and I then changed from theif to man who works and steals no more. I gave up being a man who loved men and women to being straight. have I slipped up? yes, do I have besetting sin issues? yes.

 

[dadof10]

Here is something to consider.

Thanks for posting this info. I found it interesting and did a little research as well. My daughter and I had studied the Seder foods but not the 4 cups.
Here is the scripture that the cups are said to represent.
Exodus 6:6-7 KJV
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Yeah, it is quite an interesting topic. John's Gospel is rife with teachings about how Judaism is fulfilled in Jesus. Very deep stuff. I first heard this "Four Cups" take in a Scott Hahn tape. He's a Catholic professor. He did a (I think 20?) tape series on John's Gospel and went into the minutia about how Christ is the fulfillment of Judaism and how in John's Gospel, read by a first century Jew, it would have jumped off the pages. The above is just one example. That Jesus "sang a hymn" then just left, without drinking the fourth cup, would not have been lost on a first century Jew.

 

[Sinthesis]

From John's Gospel:

"After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst."
29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Jesus JUST NOW realized He was thirsty?

How does asking for something to drink on the cross "fulfill the Scripture"?

Here is something to consider.

The Passover has four cups that are to be drunk. They are:

The Cup of Sanctification – based on God’s statement, “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptiansâ€

The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance- based on God’s statement, “I will deliver you from slavery to them.

The Cup of Redemption – based on God’s statement, “I will redeem you with an outstretched armâ€.

The Cup of Praise or Restoration – based on God’s statement, “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your Godâ€.

Now, during the Last Supper, Jesus drank three of the four cups, the last being the "Cup of Redemption" (aka. the "Cup of Blessing"). We know this because in Matthew we read:

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."

The only time a hymn is sung during Passover (Ps. 136, also called the "Great Hallel") is right before the Fourth Cup is drunk. Jesus abruptly leaves right after the Hallel without drinking the Fourth Cup.

So, Jesus gives us His Blood to drink as the Third Cup of the Passover, called the "Cup of Redemption", then leaves BEFORE drinking the Fourth Cup, called the "Cup of Praise or Restoration". Hummm... A little symbolism?

I submit the "It is finished" is referring to the Passover. The Fourth Cup was drunk on the cross. This is how Scripture was fulfilled, the Passover was completed. Paul backs this interpretation up in 1Cor. 10:15-16

"I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"

The Third Cup is also called the "Cup of Blessing" and it was this cup that Jesus used to give us His Blood.

I would also submit that His work of redemption was not finished until the Resurrection, Ascension and sending of the Holy Spirit.

This is the only explanation that takes into consideration that Scripture mentions this drink somehow "fulfills Scripture" and also the peculiar "I thirst" from the cross.

I'm not disagreeing, but there is also this:

Psa 22:15 - My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psa 69:21 - They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
​

 

[Elijah674]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

 

[dadof10]

From John's Gospel:

"After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst."
29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Jesus JUST NOW realized He was thirsty?

How does asking for something to drink on the cross "fulfill the Scripture"?

Here is something to consider.

The Passover has four cups that are to be drunk. They are:

The Cup of Sanctification – based on God’s statement, “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians”

The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance- based on God’s statement, “I will deliver you from slavery to them.

The Cup of Redemption – based on God’s statement, “I will redeem you with an outstretched arm”.

The Cup of Praise or Restoration – based on God’s statement, “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God”.

Now, during the Last Supper, Jesus drank three of the four cups, the last being the "Cup of Redemption" (aka. the "Cup of Blessing"). We know this because in Matthew we read:

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."

The only time a hymn is sung during Passover (Ps. 136, also called the "Great Hallel") is right before the Fourth Cup is drunk. Jesus abruptly leaves right after the Hallel without drinking the Fourth Cup.

So, Jesus gives us His Blood to drink as the Third Cup of the Passover, called the "Cup of Redemption", then leaves BEFORE drinking the Fourth Cup, called the "Cup of Praise or Restoration". Hummm... A little symbolism?

I submit the "It is finished" is referring to the Passover. The Fourth Cup was drunk on the cross. This is how Scripture was fulfilled, the Passover was completed. Paul backs this interpretation up in 1Cor. 10:15-16

"I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"

The Third Cup is also called the "Cup of Blessing" and it was this cup that Jesus used to give us His Blood.

I would also submit that His work of redemption was not finished until the Resurrection, Ascension and sending of the Holy Spirit.

This is the only explanation that takes into consideration that Scripture mentions this drink somehow "fulfills Scripture" and also the peculiar "I thirst" from the cross.

I'm not disagreeing, but there is also this:

Psa 22:15 - My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psa 69:21 - They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
​

Yes. The first line of the 22nd Psalm, which you referenced here, was spoken from the cross also "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This would bring to mind the entire Psalm, which speaks of Christ's suffering and death. Good stuff...

 

[dadof10]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

The words are "After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst.""

To do a proper exegesis, you have to ask yourself how thirsting or getting a drink is "fulfilling Scripture"? What you say above doesn't speak to the subject, so how would you explain it? What does John mean by "to fulfill Scripture"?

 

[gr8grace]

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

The two sentences in red seem to contradict. First you say you "will never know" if a man is saved even if you "watch" his "works", then turn around and say you could tell that your friend Mitch was saved because of what you SAW on his face in one night. You can tell by the look on someone's face if he is saved, yet not by watching him perform good deeds throughout his life? Doesn't James 2 claim you CAN tell if a person is justified by their works? I don't know of any passages that say you can "show" you are saved by having a certain look on your face.

Not only that, you believe Mitch is still saved even though he went back to his previous "rough character" life after conversion? Don't his works "show" whether he is justified or not? If you are convinced he was saved in the hospital (and I have no reason to doubt that he truly was), wouldn't his actions after he got out tell you that he was saved, then LOST that salvation, making OSAS false? Doesn't repentance matter?

based on who our God is I believe God saved Mitch. Do I know with 100% accuracy, no. But Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save him that night.

Mitch had a severed spine and was paralyzed from the neck down with no chance of walking again. That night he said it felt like lave was running through his veins and entire body.

That night when he said "yes" to the questions about Christ, that pain immediately left and he moved his foot. 2 days later he was walking in a walker.

I base my belief on what God did for Mitch not on what Mitch may or may not do for God.

Repentance does matter. And repentance is a change of mind about who Christ really is.

James 2 is speaking to Jews. If you watched a Jew from the outside, never talking to Him but just watching the way he lived. would you judge him to be saved by the works you saw Him do? Most live a pretty pleasing life and live well and Good.

And this is what James was talking about. He was pitting their faith in their human good works vs. a saving faith in Christ. James comes at it from a view point as if he was an unbeliever looking at Christianity.

The dead faith has an object(human good) that does not save and the real faith has an object(Christ) that does save.

So based off of James 2, Mitch Did the works of true faith to be saved. Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The law of liberty...Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

Yike, what does this scripture say about "what happened at the cross."
1 John 2 KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Elijah674]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

Yike, what does this scripture say about "what happened at the cross."
1 John 2 KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Well?? Christ is our High Priest for all who do in deed try to keep His Commandments! (and all don't)

For we find that we are not to ask for the ones who sin unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. (and most would rather fight than LOVE CHRIST and keep His Covenants ten! Deut. 4:12-13)

And what is the Lords work as our High Priest is seen in Rev.?, (see Rev. 15:5 for where the Testimony is kept) verse 11:18-19 tells of the very Last work that is.. FINISHED!

And Eccl. 12:12-13 has this all concluded! [[FINISHED!]]

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

The two sentences in red seem to contradict. First you say you "will never know" if a man is saved even if you "watch" his "works", then turn around and say you could tell that your friend Mitch was saved because of what you SAW on his face in one night. You can tell by the look on someone's face if he is saved, yet not by watching him perform good deeds throughout his life? Doesn't James 2 claim you CAN tell if a person is justified by their works? I don't know of any passages that say you can "show" you are saved by having a certain look on your face.

Not only that, you believe Mitch is still saved even though he went back to his previous "rough character" life after conversion? Don't his works "show" whether he is justified or not? If you are convinced he was saved in the hospital (and I have no reason to doubt that he truly was), wouldn't his actions after he got out tell you that he was saved, then LOST that salvation, making OSAS false? Doesn't repentance matter?

based on who our God is I believe God saved Mitch. Do I know with 100% accuracy, no. But Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save him that night.

Mitch had a severed spine and was paralyzed from the neck down with no chance of walking again. That night he said it felt like lave was running through his veins and entire body.

That night when he said "yes" to the questions about Christ, that pain immediately left and he moved his foot. 2 days later he was walking in a walker.

I base my belief on what God did for Mitch not on what Mitch may or may not do for God.

Repentance does matter. And repentance is a change of mind about who Christ really is.

James 2 is speaking to Jews. If you watched a Jew from the outside, never talking to Him but just watching the way he lived. would you judge him to be saved by the works you saw Him do? Most live a pretty pleasing life and live well and Good.

And this is what James was talking about. He was pitting their faith in their human good works vs. a saving faith in Christ. James comes at it from a view point as if he was an unbeliever looking at Christianity.

The dead faith has an object(human good) that does not save and the real faith has an object(Christ) that does save.

So based off of James 2, Mitch Did the works of true faith to be saved. Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The law of liberty...Christ.

I quote

if you love me my sons, obey me when I tell you do to something. this DEMONSTRATES to me that you DO love Me

jr, my mma coach, a father of 4 boys and also a Christian ordained pastor and eternal security believer. hmm sounds like he doesn't believe his sons love him until they do as he says to do. oh and he says that the father in heaven is no different and quotes if ye love me indeed then obey my commands