-It is Finished- (means what??)

[gr8grace]

I completely disagree.

The total cost was paid for by Jesus Christ. We benefit from His total surrender. Not a person who has ever lived has totally surrendered.

The cost and surrender is a choice the believer makes AFTER they are totally saved and eternally secure. It is on going sanctification or experiential sanctification in our condition(flesh). The cost of our position in Christ(union with Christ) was paid in full by Christ and comes at no cost to us.....Grace.

So what is the point of the "cost" there is no cost to something that is free,there is no reason to consider cost when something is free...indeed there is no reason to even mention cost when something is free...your doctrine is very popular these days and the word or label "Christian" has come to be meaningless.I submit that salvation is a free gift and that the desire and strength to pursue discipleship is a free gift and anyone who does not posess the desire for discipleship to some degree(you are correct,no one has done it perfectly)and pursues a life of habitual sin has neither received salvation or discipleship because there has been no new birth of the spirit and heart,old things have not passed away and things remain as they were before.

The cost is not in salvation. The cost is in this life in our condition. we have rewards and benefits waiting for us if we "count the cost"...rank,crowns,jewels,gold,silver...they all come at a cost. But salvation was paid for by Christ.

Discipleship is not a part of salvation. Discipleship is part of spiritual maturity in Christ. We are all saved as babes in Christ. we can go to heaven as babes or we can pick up our cross and count the cost and Go to heaven as spiritually mature believers.

Just for clarification, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the least popular doctrine in this world. Yours is very popular....Lordship salvation.

Just read your post. Where is Christ in your salvation message? Where is Faith? where is Grace?

what you are not seeing is the believers on going sanctification in this world. It is our choice. We do it or do not do it in our life.

It is the doctrine of POSITION and the Doctrine of CONDITION and they are separate and individual doctrines.

Position in Christ= salvation and eternal security. Its a done deal. no changing it.

Condition in this life= Growing or not growing in that salvation(Grace). Continuing in the knowledge or not continuing in that knowledge. Experiential sanctification is going from a babe in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ. Always in Christ though.

Our position in Christ never changes. We can move along in our condition in this life and grow, we can stay where we are and we can even go backwards. However, our position in Christ never changes.

So a person can be saved with no change in their heart soul or life ? I am not talking about on going sanctification,i'm talking about no change at all throughout a person's life....also what is the point of the warnings against sin in the NT and that those who "practice" such things shall not inherit eternal life.

The point of all the warnings? I will copy and paste what you are not seeing.

what you are not seeing is the believers on going sanctification in this world. It is our choice. We do it or do not do it in our life.

It is the doctrine of POSITION and the Doctrine of CONDITION and they are separate and individual doctrines.

Position in Christ= salvation and eternal security. Its a done deal. no changing it.

Condition in this life= Growing or not growing in that salvation(Grace). Continuing in the knowledge or not continuing in that knowledge. Experiential sanctification is going from a babe in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ. Always in Christ though.

The cost is in this life in our condition. we have rewards and benefits waiting for us if we "count the cost"...rank,crowns,jewels,gold,silver...they all come at a cost. But salvation was paid for by Christ.

The bible NEVER says ," if a believer practices these things, I will toss them to the eternal lake of fire and I will take back my promise of salvation, because in this instance I am not immutable."

And the verse that you are referring to is to unbelievers and these are sin distractions that the world and Satan uses to keep the unbeliever from coming to Faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[Mountain Man]

The bible NEVER says ," if a believer practices these things, I will toss them to the eternal lake of fire and I will take back my promise of salvation, because in this instance I am not immutable."

The bible also does not say that those who practice such things will not inherit eternal life....unless they are saved....then it's party time brother.

 

[Mountain Man]

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.

I anver said anything about judging anyone,your position is that all one needs to do is"believe" and then get on with their life in any manner they choose,there should be plenty of passages that support this position.

 

[Elijah674]

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.

I anver said anything about judging anyone,your position is that all one needs to do is"believe" and then get on with their life in any manner they choose,there should be plenty of passages that support this position.

But is this not the easy broad way?
Just forget John 12!
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

+

James 2
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

--Elijah

 

[gr8grace]

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.

I anver said anything about judging anyone,your position is that all one needs to do is"believe" and then get on with their life in any manner they choose,there should be plenty of passages that support this position.

Religion will always interpret Grace alone through faith alone as saying," Believe and party on dude!"

Being born again is an opportunity at a life and direction in our condition as human creatures that we NEVER had or even dreamed of before we were saved. It is a manner of life that was never an option to us as an unbeliever. Now as a believer, we SHOULD Grow in His Grace and Knowledge. And lots of believers choose not to.

The funny thing is a lot of believers who promote false doctrines such as "works salvation" and "faith + works" Appear to be saved to the natural man. And they are farther away from God then some of the "overt sinning believers"

 

[Mountain Man]

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.

I anver said anything about judging anyone,your position is that all one needs to do is"believe" and then get on with their life in any manner they choose,there should be plenty of passages that support this position.

Religion will always interpret Grace alone through faith alone as saying," Believe and party on dude!"

Being born again is an opportunity at a life and direction in our condition as human creatures that we NEVER had or even dreamed of before we were saved. It is a manner of life that was never an option to us as an unbeliever. Now as a believer, we SHOULD Grow in His Grace and Knowledge. And lots of believers choose not to.

The funny thing is a lot of believers who promote false doctrines such as "works salvation" and "faith + works" Appear to be saved to the natural man. And they are farther away from God then some of the "overt sinning believers"

Is all that realy necessary,it has nothing to do with what I said...since you call my postion religion which we both know in the context of Christianity is an insult,might as well call me a pharisee ,am I free to call yours apsotacy,preaching the unchanged life and the unchanged heart and a life of unrepentant sin with not a single scripture to back it up...like a I said before your doctrine is very popular these days resulting in a weak church that is of little to no effect on culture and society...a church that is just like the world around it apart from tee shirts and Jesus pins....all the world flocks to the church where one can come out the same as they went in and live a life of mockery to the word of God and waltz into Heaven anyway....no man or woman receives the holy spirit and the blood bought salvation of God without change and repentance being the result.

 

[gr8grace]

The bible is for our personal relationship with the Lord. Not some scale for us to judge everyone else with.

I anver said anything about judging anyone,your position is that all one needs to do is"believe" and then get on with their life in any manner they choose,there should be plenty of passages that support this position.

Religion will always interpret Grace alone through faith alone as saying," Believe and party on dude!"

Being born again is an opportunity at a life and direction in our condition as human creatures that we NEVER had or even dreamed of before we were saved. It is a manner of life that was never an option to us as an unbeliever. Now as a believer, we SHOULD Grow in His Grace and Knowledge. And lots of believers choose not to.

The funny thing is a lot of believers who promote false doctrines such as "works salvation" and "faith + works" Appear to be saved to the natural man. And they are farther away from God then some of the "overt sinning believers"

Is all that realy necessary,it has nothing to do with what I said...since you call my postion religion which we both know in the context of Christianity is an insult,might as well call me a pharisee ,am I free to call yours apsotacy,preaching the unchanged life and the unchanged heart and a life of unrepentant sin with not a single scripture to back it up...like a I said before your doctrine is very popular these days resulting in a weak church that is of little to no effect on culture and society...a church that is just like the world around it apart from tee shirts and Jesus pins....all the world flocks to the church where one can come out the same as they went in and live a life of mockery to the word of God and waltz into Heaven anyway....no man or woman receives the holy spirit and the blood bought salvation of God without change and repentance being the result.

It really ties into what we are discussing doesn't it? We have made a choice in what we believe and we each have the freedom to call it what ever we like.

I will break one verse down for you that teaches that grace alone and faith alone is the truth for salvation.

Grace= living well because we ARE accepted

Law and religion= living well to BE accepted.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Nothing of works mentioned. No Change of physical life mentioned. Just Grace alone and Faith alone.

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and saved forever."

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the ONLY way to say "you have been saved."

In fact ,the writer(the holy Spirit) is saying dont even question salvation and how it works and do not question your security as a believer. You will not grow and mature as believers if you question this.

God does not call us to change culture and society. God calls us to be a light to individuals that are caught up in our culture and society. This culture and society is going to be burned up in the end. God cares for the individual.

This world is a anesthetic for a mans lonely heart. We are not called to rid the world of the anesthetic. we are called to offer a light(Christ) to a mans lonely heart.

 

[dadof10]

From John's Gospel:

"After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst."
29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Jesus JUST NOW realized He was thirsty?

How does asking for something to drink on the cross "fulfill the Scripture"?

Here is something to consider.

The Passover has four cups that are to be drunk. They are:

The Cup of Sanctification – based on God’s statement, “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptiansâ€

The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance- based on God’s statement, “I will deliver you from slavery to them.

The Cup of Redemption – based on God’s statement, “I will redeem you with an outstretched armâ€.

The Cup of Praise or Restoration – based on God’s statement, “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your Godâ€.

Now, during the Last Supper, Jesus drank three of the four cups, the last being the "Cup of Redemption" (aka. the "Cup of Blessing"). We know this because in Matthew we read:

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."

The only time a hymn is sung during Passover (Ps. 136, also called the "Great Hallel") is right before the Fourth Cup is drunk. Jesus abruptly leaves right after the Hallel without drinking the Fourth Cup.

So, Jesus gives us His Blood to drink as the Third Cup of the Passover, called the "Cup of Redemption", then leaves BEFORE drinking the Fourth Cup, called the "Cup of Praise or Restoration". Hummm... A little symbolism?

I submit the "It is finished" is referring to the Passover. The Fourth Cup was drunk on the cross. This is how Scripture was fulfilled, the Passover was completed. Paul backs this interpretation up in 1Cor. 10:15-16

"I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"

The Third Cup is also called the "Cup of Blessing" and it was this cup that Jesus used to give us His Blood.

I would also submit that His work of redemption was not finished until the Resurrection, Ascension and sending of the Holy Spirit.

This is the only explanation that takes into consideration that Scripture mentions this drink somehow "fulfills Scripture" and also the peculiar "I thirst" from the cross.

 

[Mountain Man]

This world is a anesthetic for a mans lonely heart. We are not called to rid the world of the anesthetic. we are called to offer a light(Christ) to a mans lonely heart.

It doesn't matter what we are called to do,to be called means to have ears to hear the call,changed ears,repentant ears,contrite ears....if the same old ears are still in control all calls will go unanswered.

 

[gr8grace]

This world is a anesthetic for a mans lonely heart. We are not called to rid the world of the anesthetic. we are called to offer a light(Christ) to a mans lonely heart.

It doesn't matter what we are called to do,to be called means to have ears to hear the call,changed ears,repentant ears,contrite ears....if the same old ears are still in control all calls will go unanswered.

so, a question? What do your ears hear with eph 2:8?

 

[jasoncran]

I don't know if more americans were true believer we wouldn't have the problems of crime and other sins today. to say that a changed heart of men wont affect the world is well wrong. William Wilberforce stopped slavery in England.

 

[gr8grace]

I don't know if more americans were true believer we wouldn't have the problems of crime and other sins today. to say that a changed heart of men wont affect the world is well wrong. William Wilberforce stopped slavery in England.

We are strictly speaking salvation here Jason. not the divine works that believers do after salvation. Those works will effect the world....Christ working through you. We cannot discuss the works for Christians until we get past the fact that those works will not save a man.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but you did say what you said I did take it that way. while flowed America was founded on post mil puratinism.those guys were very much into eternal security

 

[gr8grace]

yes but you did say what you said I did take it that way. while flowed America was founded on post mil puratinism.those guys were very much into eternal security

I never said that "we would not have an impact on the world." I simply stated that we are not called to change this world and how it operates. Many of believers will go down in history for their impact on this world.

Living spiritually, we will have an impact on this world.

Living to make this place a better place to live is not spiritual.

Living well and Good is the result of being spiritual.

Living well and Good is not being spiritual.

 

[jasoncran]

I understand that but you misunderstood that mountain men was saying just what you said to me. that men if they did really repent wouldn't lie, fornicate, cheat and steal. they would live holy and raise children in the admonition of the lord.

 

[Deborah13]

Here is something to consider.

Thanks for posting this info. I found it interesting and did a little research as well. My daughter and I had studied the Seder foods but not the 4 cups.
Here is the scripture that the cups are said to represent.
Exodus 6:6-7 KJV
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

 

[gr8grace]

I understand that but you misunderstood that mountain men was saying just what you said to me. that men if they did really repent wouldn't lie, fornicate, cheat and steal. they would live holy and raise children in the admonition of the lord.

And I am telling you both, that the bible says that we SHOULD walk in them. It never says that we WILL walk in those good works. And the new creature that we get at the moment of salvation CANNOT do any of those things. But our flesh(that stands condemned at the cross) can do those things and some continue their whole lives doing those things. But the new Creature(born again) we get at the moment of salvation is sin free and the creation we go to heaven in. A babe in Christ(never feeding the new creature) or spiritually mature(feeding the new creature)

We can live in the old flesh or we can live in the new creature. Why live in the flesh when that part of us will never go to the kingdom. God never takes the New Creature in Christ away from a born again believer, no matter how much we starve it.

 

[jasoncran]

I understand that but you misunderstood that mountain men was saying just what you said to me. that men if they did really repent wouldn't lie, fornicate, cheat and steal. they would live holy and raise children in the admonition of the lord.

And I am telling you both, that the bible says that we SHOULD walk in them. It never says that we WILL walk in those good works. And the new creature that we get at the moment of salvation CANNOT do any of those things. But our flesh(that stands condemned at the cross) can do those things and some continue their whole lives doing those things. But the new Creature(born again) we get at the moment of salvation is sin free and the creation we go to heaven in. A babe in Christ(never feeding the new creature) or spiritually mature(feeding the new creature)

We can live in the old flesh or we can live in the new creature. Why live in the flesh when that part of us will never go to the kingdom. God never takes the New Creature in Christ away from a born again believer, no matter how much we starve it.

so you would call a so called believer that you know from his birth that doesn't show any change a saved men just because he prayed? that isn't eternal security. I know pastors who preach that and will say that man never believed and repented. there has to be fruits to one's repentance. would you believe any person was sorrowful if they hurt you and never stopped hurting you when and after they said sorry? NO, yet you seem to teach that God does accept that.

grace is this. we repent, we desire to change because we Love God, we want to be like him. slowly we do change as he does it. there is evidence of some change as we don't curse, lie and steal as before, does that mean we don't slip? no, does that mean we cant grow more? NO.

 

[Mountain Man]

so, a question? What do your ears hear with eph 2:8?

Welcome one and all to the scripture comparison hour where we take one scripture and attempt to make the rest of scripture null and void and give the atheist,agnostics all those with itching ears everything they have always wanted to hear.....applause applause,cheers cheers......

 

[gr8grace]

I understand that but you misunderstood that mountain men was saying just what you said to me. that men if they did really repent wouldn't lie, fornicate, cheat and steal. they would live holy and raise children in the admonition of the lord.

And I am telling you both, that the bible says that we SHOULD walk in them. It never says that we WILL walk in those good works. And the new creature that we get at the moment of salvation CANNOT do any of those things. But our flesh(that stands condemned at the cross) can do those things and some continue their whole lives doing those things. But the new Creature(born again) we get at the moment of salvation is sin free and the creation we go to heaven in. A babe in Christ(never feeding the new creature) or spiritually mature(feeding the new creature)

We can live in the old flesh or we can live in the new creature. Why live in the flesh when that part of us will never go to the kingdom. God never takes the New Creature in Christ away from a born again believer, no matter how much we starve it.

so you would call a so called believer that you know from his birth that doesn't show any change a saved men just because he prayed? that isn't eternal security. I know pastors who preach that and will say that man never believed and repented. there has to be fruits to one's repentance. would you believe any person was sorrowful if they hurt you and never stopped hurting you when and after they said sorry? NO, yet you seem to teach that God does accept that.

grace is this. we repent, we desire to change because we Love God, we want to be like him. slowly we do change as he does it. there is evidence of some change as we don't curse, lie and steal as before, does that mean we don't slip? no, does that mean we cant grow more? NO.

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.