-It is Finished- (means what??)

[dadof10]

A prayer does not save a man. God does not save men through prayers. God does not save men by asking him into their hearts. God saves a man when a man BELIEVES in Christ alone for his salvation. You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed.

We all have stories, but I have one. I worked with a guy that broke his neck one night while wrestling with a friend. I visited him in the hospital and witnessed Christ to him. He was a rough character! The doctors gave him no chance of walking again and diagnosed Pain and severe pain for a long time. I saw him laying there in agony," as if flames were running through his body." As he explained.

I asked Mitch if he really believed that God wanted to save him and if God had him personally in mind when Christ went to the cross. And I asked him if he thought he was a sinner and needed to be saved.

He said yes to all. I saw the peace and comfort come over that man in the hospital. Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save that man that night. And Mitch to this day is living the way he always did. It is the Character and nature of our God that saves and keeps a man saved. Not our behavior or character.

And Grace is....All that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor, kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God Alone, not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

The two sentences in red seem to contradict. First you say you "will never know" if a man is saved even if you "watch" his "works", then turn around and say you could tell that your friend Mitch was saved because of what you SAW on his face in one night. You can tell by the look on someone's face if he is saved, yet not by watching him perform good deeds throughout his life? Doesn't James 2 claim you CAN tell if a person is justified by their works? I don't know of any passages that say you can "show" you are saved by having a certain look on your face.

Not only that, you believe Mitch is still saved even though he went back to his previous "rough character" life after conversion? Don't his works "show" whether he is justified or not? If you are convinced he was saved in the hospital (and I have no reason to doubt that he truly was), wouldn't his actions after he got out tell you that he was saved, then LOST that salvation, making OSAS false? Doesn't repentance matter?

based on who our God is I believe God saved Mitch. Do I know with 100% accuracy, no. But Nobody is going to convince me that God did not save him that night.

Mitch had a severed spine and was paralyzed from the neck down with no chance of walking again. That night he said it felt like lave was running through his veins and entire body.

That night when he said "yes" to the questions about Christ, that pain immediately left and he moved his foot. 2 days later he was walking in a walker.

I base my belief on what God did for Mitch not on what Mitch may or may not do for God.

I have no doubt your friend was saved, as I said in the previous post. What I was commenting on was your inconsistency is saying you were able to know ("nobody is going to convince me...") HE was saved by what he demonstrated to you, yet you say about a generic person, "You and I will never know if that man is truly saved. I could watch and judge him by his works and NEVER know if He truly believed." My question is, is it possible, in your opinion, for a person to "show" his "true faith" to others?

Repentance does matter. And repentance is a change of mind about who Christ really is.

That's part of it, but it's also a change of BEHAVIOR once a person believes. Can a person remain "saved" and still continue to live as they did before conversion? This is what you seem to have said about Mitch, that he was saved in the hospital, but didn't change his behavior after he left.

James 2 is speaking to Jews.

No. James' entire letter is written to the "brethren". He calls his audience "brethren" in chapter 2 vs. 1, 5 and 14, then again in 3:1. He is obviously speaking to Christian brethren, members of the Church.

If you watched a Jew from the outside, never talking to Him but just watching the way he lived. would you judge him to be saved by the works you saw Him do? Most live a pretty pleasing life and live well and Good.

And this is what James was talking about. He was pitting their faith in their human good works vs. a saving faith in Christ.

Again, he is speaking to "brethren". THEY are the ones who are not living up to their faith. This has nothing to do with Judaism or the law. The works he mentions are good deeds, You have to look elsewhere in Scripture to find faith v. works of the law teaching.

James comes at it from a view point as if he was an unbeliever looking at Christianity.

I'm curious. What in the text makes you think this?

 

[Sinthesis]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

The words are "After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst.""

To do a proper exegesis, you have to ask yourself how thirsting or getting a drink is "fulfilling Scripture"? What you say above doesn't speak to the subject, so how would you explain it? What does John mean by "to fulfill Scripture"?

Look at all the translations for Psa 22:15 and you'll see the public acknowledgment of His thirst is in regard to the prophecy of that verse. It clearly wasn't in regard to the fulfillment of 'all' scripture because the resurrection was still future. So I take what was finished is what Christ had to do before His death on the cross.

 

[Elijah674]

What was Finished?

OK: Lets try again? Jesus died, and at the same time the Sanctuary vial rent from the top to the bottom by an unseen hand! the curtain was the dividing drape that separated the earthly Sanctuary. Now there IS just one room. It is called the original 'HOUSE' of God. (Heb. 9:24)
Today Christ sets by the Ark of God that has the Ten Commandments [INSIDE OF IT]. Rev. 11:19

--Elijah

The real 'It is Finished' is not a deep subject!
As stated when Christ DIED the Sanctuary RENT from top to the bottom by an unseen hand! And (Adam) Christ told Mary to not touch Him? Why? (John 20:17) Because He needed to be found faithful in His mission as the second Adam.

Now when this was ALL past/tense & Christ became our High Priest in the heavenly Court, HE sent the Holy Spirit back to do His WORK WORLDWIDE! Up until then Christ had pre/conditioned power on Earth. (see Matt. 4:9) It was then that ALL WAS FINISHED! Before Adam had sinned, the Holy Spirit was seen in the Lords creation, but after sin entered Adam & Eve, He was now limited! (they were both naked!)

This is what FINISHED means! It has absolutely nothing to do with much else! (except with the handwriting of Moses laws) And as John explains it in 2 John 5-7 and onward.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby [[know we that we are in him.]]
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

And that extension has satan riding horseback in his race for souls! A liar from the beginning! With the numbers game of broadway 'c'hristians at his command!

And Christ with only the few given Him from God the Father as seen in Rev. 12:17...
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--Elijah

PS: And it is the Forth Commandment that the problem for all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones!

The words are "After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the scripture), "I thirst.""

To do a proper exegesis, you have to ask yourself how thirsting or getting a drink is "fulfilling Scripture"? What you say above doesn't speak to the subject, so how would you explain it? What does John mean by "to fulfill Scripture"?

Look at all the translations for Psa 22:15 and you'll see the public acknowledgment of His thirst is in regard to the prophecy of that verse. It clearly wasn't in regard to the fulfillment of 'all' scripture because the resurrection was still future. So I take what was finished is what Christ had to do before His death on the cross.

That seems clear to me as well. But lets add another equation into this? How does one re/crucify Christ afresh as seen in Heb. 6:1-6 ? (Heb. 6:6)
And this is based on Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 and using the way that God does indeed work! Gen.41:32
[32] And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

Look at all the translations for Psa 22:15 and you'll see the public acknowledgment of His thirst is in regard to the prophecy of that verse. It clearly wasn't in regard to the fulfillment of 'all' scripture because the resurrection was still future. So I take what was finished is what Christ had to do before His death on the cross.

OK, I see your point now. I look at these verses as a whole thought. It seems that "it is finished" is directly tied to "(to fulfill Scripture) said "I thirst". Once He took the drink, he said "it is finished", which tells me this was the goal, to get a drink, not to show thirst. To fulfill the Scripture of Ps. 22:15, all He had to do was BE thirsty, not actually take a drink, unless He was trying to tie Ps. 69 in there too.

"When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"..." This indicates to me that taking a drink was the final act of something that needed to be "finished".

That being said, you could be right. It could be that He had fulfilled everything that was prophesied in Ps. 22 except verse 15, which was what He meant by "it is finished" and what John was getting at by "to fulfill Scripture". The text could be read that way too, I think. I like my interpretation better, though.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It is Finished- (means what??)

For one it means that God has finished by the death of Christ, of reconciling to Himself those Christ died for. 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Its finished Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Elijah674]

Look at all the translations for Psa 22:15 and you'll see the public acknowledgment of His thirst is in regard to the prophecy of that verse. It clearly wasn't in regard to the fulfillment of 'all' scripture because the resurrection was still future. So I take what was finished is what Christ had to do before His death on the cross.

OK, I see your point now. I look at these verses as a whole thought. It seems that "it is finished" is directly tied to "(to fulfill Scripture) said "I thirst". Once He took the drink, he said "it is finished", which tells me this was the goal, to get a drink, not to show thirst. To fulfill the Scripture of Ps. 22:15, all He had to do was BE thirsty, not actually take a drink, unless He was trying to tie Ps. 69 in there too.

"When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"..." This indicates to me that taking a drink was the final act of something that needed to be "finished".

That being said, you could be right. It could be that He had fulfilled everything that was prophesied in Ps. 22 except verse 15, which was what He meant by "it is finished" and what John was getting at by "to fulfill Scripture". The text could be read that way too, I think. I like my interpretation better, though.

;) Agreed!
That is why Mary was to not touch him in John 20:17. Christ needed to be approved of God as faithful, the Perfect Adam before He could be contaminated with sin full mankind.

--Elijah

 

[Sinthesis]

Look at all the translations for Psa 22:15 and you'll see the public acknowledgment of His thirst is in regard to the prophecy of that verse. It clearly wasn't in regard to the fulfillment of 'all' scripture because the resurrection was still future. So I take what was finished is what Christ had to do before His death on the cross.

OK, I see your point now. I look at these verses as a whole thought. It seems that "it is finished" is directly tied to "(to fulfill Scripture) said "I thirst". Once He took the drink, he said "it is finished", which tells me this was the goal, to get a drink, not to show thirst. To fulfill the Scripture of Ps. 22:15, all He had to do was BE thirsty, not actually take a drink, unless He was trying to tie Ps. 69 in there too.

"When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"..." This indicates to me that taking a drink was the final act of something that needed to be "finished".

That being said, you could be right. It could be that He had fulfilled everything that was prophesied in Ps. 22 except verse 15, which was what He meant by "it is finished" and what John was getting at by "to fulfill Scripture". The text could be read that way too, I think. I like my interpretation better, though.

I like your symbolism even though I don't agree with it. Why don't I agree?

• Because Jesus knew it was finished even before He took the vinegar. John 19:28
• Vinegar in a sponge on a stick is a lousy substitute for wine in a cup.
• ...this fruit of the vine - Matt 26:29 - seems particular to wine, not vinegar
• ...when I drink it new with you - Matt 26:29 - where were the disciples when He was offered vinegar?
• The cup of restoration was to be taken in God's Kingdom. Matt 26:29
• Restoration could not happen before the Resurrection, therefore the cup of restoration could not be taken prior to the Resurrection.

That said, I also don't believe the last supper was a Passover Seder, but it does seem significant that in a similar pattern to the Seder they left out the last cup.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And this is what James was talking about. He was pitting their faith in their human good works vs. a saving faith in Christ. James comes at it from a view point as if he was an unbeliever looking at Christianity.

No. James was pitting the 'faith alone' argument (as that was misunderstood even in his day) with the the faith that saves, the faith that has works to validate it's ability to save.

'Hyper faith' says the finished work of Christ even finished our responsibility to be obedient to God. James is confronting this false teaching by saying that a man is not only justified by his faith in Christ (the legal, positional righteousness you talk about), but that a man is ALSO justified (shown to be righteous in practice) by what he does. He says the faith that justifies, legally speaking, is ALSO the faith that obeys the royal command of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The faith that can not do that is a faith that can not save.

So it is false to tell people that only one of the definitions and applications of 'justified' is enough to be saved. James says it is not. You must also be justified by what you do. This does NOT mean MADE righteous by what you do, but SHOWN to be righteous by what you do. Both 'justified' are required for salvation. That's not a works gospel. It means the faith that justifies (makes one legally righteous before God) is the faith that can be seen in it's obedience to God. No outward evidence of legal justification means no legal justification exists.

The dead faith has an object(human good) that does not save and the real faith has an object(Christ) that does save.

The problem is not that the audience of James' letter is trying to become legally righteous before God by what they do. The problem is they think that their faith 'alone', without works, can save them. He warns them that this is simply not true and that the faith that justifies (makes us positionally righteous before God all by itself apart from what we do) is the faith that can be seen, practically speaking, in what we do. To think otherwise is to be deceived. James is not the only one to teach this in the Bible.


The argument you level reminds me of what Paul said to those who accused him of teaching what you believe:

"8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just." (Romans 3:8 NIV)

The argument turns the grace of God into the very license to sin that the Bible warns us about. Christ's finished work on the cross was completed so we can obey God, not sin against him with impunity.

"10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." (Ephesians 2:10 NIV)

The person who thinks we can confess Christ, turn to him in repentence, but then become fruitless, barren trees and still be saved is deceived:

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-7 NIV)

 

[Elijah674]

And this is what James was talking about. He was pitting their faith in their human good works vs. a saving faith in Christ. James comes at it from a view point as if he was an unbeliever looking at Christianity.

No. James was pitting the 'faith alone' argument (as that was misunderstood even in his day) with the the faith that saves, the faith that has works to validate it's ability to save.

'Hyper faith' says the finished work of Christ even finished our responsibility to be obedient to God. James is confronting this false teaching by saying that a man is not only justified by his faith in Christ (the legal, positional righteousness you talk about), but that a man is ALSO justified (shown to be righteous in practice) by what he does. He says the faith that justifies, legally speaking, is ALSO the faith that obeys the royal command of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The faith that can not do that is a faith that can not save.

So it is false to tell people that only one of the definitions and applications of 'justified' is enough to be saved. James says it is not. You must also be justified by what you do. This does NOT mean MADE righteous by what you do, but SHOWN to be righteous by what you do. Both 'justified' are required for salvation. That's not a works gospel. It means the faith that justifies (makes one legally righteous before God) is the faith that can be seen in it's obedience to God. No outward evidence of legal justification means no legal justification exists.

The dead faith has an object(human good) that does not save and the real faith has an object(Christ) that does save.

The problem is not that the audience of James' letter is trying to become legally righteous before God by what they do. The problem is they think that their faith 'alone', without works, can save them. He warns them that this is simply not true and that the faith that justifies (makes us positionally righteous before God all by itself apart from what we do) is the faith that can be seen, practically speaking, in what we do. To think otherwise is to be deceived. James is not the only one to teach this in the Bible.


The argument you level reminds me of what Paul said to those who accused him of teaching what you believe:

"8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just." (Romans 3:8 NIV)

The argument turns the grace of God into the very license to sin that the Bible warns us about. Christ's finished work on the cross was completed so we can obey God, not sin against him with impunity.

"10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." (Ephesians 2:10 NIV)

The person who thinks we can confess Christ, turn to him in repentence, but then become fruitless, barren trees and still be saved is deceived:

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-7 NIV)

James still documents ...
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

And what law had killing engraved there. And the breaking of one Commandment has all broken! And why so? Because the ten Commandments are [ONE] Commandment! See Christ's documenting as penned in Matt. 22

[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou [[shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,]] and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.

(just forget this one until it is done? Heb. 6:6)

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments [[hang all]] the law and the prophets.

(and hang all of the Law?? how much of the law?? 'and all the prophets ' never violated their INSPIRATION.. 1 Cor. 14:32)

So lets see the bottom line for why one will be saved? It is because of the LOVE that Christ has for them & which they would die first before offending Him! (See Dan. 3:14-18 Final TESTING!)

And the conclusion of the whole matter? As stated only these ones will be SAVED...
Eccl. 12:13-14 (which is another of all of the prophets!)

[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for [[this is the whole duty of man.]]
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James still documents ...
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

And what law had killing engraved there. And the breaking of one Commandment has all broken! And why so? Because the ten Commandments are [ONE] Commandment! See Christ's documenting as penned in Matt. 22

[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou [[shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,]] and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.

(just forget this one until it is done? Heb. 6:6)

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments [[hang all]] the law and the prophets.

(and hang all of the Law?? how much of the law?? 'and all the prophets ' never violated their INSPIRATION.. 1 Cor. 14:32)

So lets see the bottom line for why one will be saved? It is because of the LOVE that Christ has for them & which they would die first before offending Him! (See Dan. 3:14-18 Final TESTING!)

And the conclusion of the whole matter? As stated only these ones will be SAVED...
Eccl. 12:13-14 (which is another of all of the prophets!)

[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for [[this is the whole duty of man.]]
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

--Elijah

"8 ...for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Romans 13:8-9 NIV)

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

You see, all Ten Commandments, and more, are satisfied when we 'love (our) neighbor as (our)selves'. The mistake would be to think 'keeping Sabbath', for example, satisfies 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That's not what Paul says. When we love others, no law remains unsatisfied.


The royal law of scripture is the signature of saving faith. A 'faith' that can not uphold the royal law of scripture is a 'faith' that can not save. 'Hyper grace', which says faith 'alone' saves, is a Biblically incorrect, false teaching. James says if we are not also justified (shown to be righteous) by what we do (specifically, love others) we have a dead faith. A faith that James says can not save.

If we find that we have a dead faith, scripture tells us to buy 'gold' refined in the fire:

"18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire*, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness" (Revelation 3:18 NIV)

*1 Peter 1:7 NIV


Christ finished his work of redemption on the cross so we can uphold the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself', not so we can not keep it and get away with it. That's a license to sin. Grace is not a license to sin.

"13 ...Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:13-14 NIV)

 

[Deborah13]

Because Jesus knew it was finished even before He took the vinegar. John 19:28
Vinegar in a sponge on a stick is a lousy substitute for wine in a cup.
...this fruit of the vine - Matt 26:29 - seems particular to wine, not vinegar
...when I drink it new with you - Matt 26:29 - where were the disciples when He was offered vinegar?
The cup of restoration was to be taken in God's Kingdom. Matt 26:29
Restoration could not happen before the Resurrection, therefore the cup of restoration could not be taken prior to the Resurrection

I agree with you.
Do you think this cup of restoration was drank with them after He ascended and came in His glorified body? In other words, God's Kingdom being then on earth.
Or do you think this means in the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[Deborah13]

'Hyper faith' says the finished work of Christ even finished our responsibility to be obedient to God.

"Should we go on sinning that grace should abound? Heaven forbid!"

 

[jasoncran]

@Jethro Bodine . the idea of the shabat that is fulfilled when we live as god has provided and not seeking others stuff as we have enough.

 

[n2thelight]

Elijah674

Christ as God man Adam in the N.T. was born of a woman yet was conceived of the Holy Ghost. He could use NO power that the first Adam had not excess to, to be the Second FAITHFUL Adam! (see John 20:17 for needing Jehovah’s acceptance)

SO: We hear that it is ALL FINISHED at the cross. But what was finished??

John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished:" and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

When Jesus stated "It is finished", He was quoting from the last line of Psalm 22, with the word "Finished" in the Greek text, the same as the Hebrew word "done". This verse suggests that Jesus kept His head erect, until He laid down His life, as was stated in John 10:18

John 10:18 "No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father."

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah674

Christ as God man Adam in the N.T. was born of a woman yet was conceived of the Holy Ghost. He could use NO power that the first Adam had not excess to, to be the Second FAITHFUL Adam! (see John 20:17 for needing Jehovah’s acceptance)

SO: We hear that it is ALL FINISHED at the cross. But what was finished??

John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished:" and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

When Jesus stated "It is finished", He was quoting from the last line of Psalm 22, with the word "Finished" in the Greek text, the same as the Hebrew word "done". This verse suggests that Jesus kept His head erect, until He laid down His life, as was stated in John 10:18

John 10:18 "No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father."

So..
Christ is the 7th day Sabbath is a pipe dream of satan. Dan. 7:25

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So..
Christ is the 7th day Sabbath is a pipe dream of satan. Dan. 7:25

--Elijah

If God's Sabbath requirement being met when we have 'faith expressing itself in love' is a pipe dream of satan, then the requirement for circumcision being fulfilled by having the indwelling Holy Spirit is also a pipe dream of satan.

Surely you must agree(?)


When you 'love your neighbor as yourself' through faith in Christ, you satisfy ALL of God's commands in the Law. Paul said it, not satan. Or do you think Paul was surfing the pipe line with satan on this one?

 

[Elijah674]

So..
Christ is the 7th day Sabbath is a pipe dream of satan. Dan. 7:25

--Elijah

If God's Sabbath requirement being met when we have 'faith expressing itself in love' is a pipe dream of satan, then the requirement for circumcision being fulfilled by having the indwelling Holy Spirit is also a pipe dream of satan.

Surely you must agree(?)


When you 'love your neighbor as yourself' through faith in Christ, you satisfy ALL of God's commands in the Law. Paul said it, not satan. Or do you think Paul was surfing the pipe line with satan on this one?

You again? Whatever.
John 2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

--Elijah

 

[Sinthesis]

Because Jesus knew it was finished even before He took the vinegar. John 19:28
Vinegar in a sponge on a stick is a lousy substitute for wine in a cup.
...this fruit of the vine - Matt 26:29 - seems particular to wine, not vinegar
...when I drink it new with you - Matt 26:29 - where were the disciples when He was offered vinegar?
The cup of restoration was to be taken in God's Kingdom. Matt 26:29
Restoration could not happen before the Resurrection, therefore the cup of restoration could not be taken prior to the Resurrection

I agree with you.
Do you think this cup of restoration was drank with them after He ascended and came in His glorified body? In other words, God's Kingdom being then on earth.
Or do you think this means in the Kingdom of Heaven?

I don't believe the Last Supper was a Seder, so the primary reason Jesus said He wouldn't drink again was His acknowledgment of the Jewish 'fast of the firstborn', which He would not break until He had returned from the grave.

I don't think He ascended until the Ascension, so He didn't assume a glorified body until then. Those characteristics we commonly assume as evidence of a glorified body are just divine miracles performed in His regular resurrected body, which still bore scars.

God's Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven can either be the same or different depending on context. However, I believe Matt 26:29 points to a new fulfillment of 'The Passover', which could not be understood until after Christ's Resurrection and the establishment of Christianity(God's Kingdom on Earth).

Therefore, I think the Jewish symbolism of the cup of restoration is confirmed in Christian communion when we accept His Spirit and are restored to that relationship with God which had been lost to humanity due to sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

And we keep ALL his commandments when we keep the one law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Do you want to argue the point with Paul?

Godly love is the signature of saving faith. It's how we show that we know, or rather are known by, God.

Christ's finished work on the cross made it possible for us to keep God's commands in this New Covenant, just as was prophesied. God did that by writing his love on our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who was sent into the world as a direct response to the acceptable sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Just as the Glory appeared in the Mosaic Temple when the sacrifice was offered up and was accepted by God, so the Glory appears in the New Temple--the Temple of God's people--in this New Covenant when Christ the perfect and acceptable sacrifice is offered up by faith in that Temple and accepted by God.

The work of Christ made this all possible. There's nothing left to accomplish in that regard. The work of redemption has been completed. Now we wait for the complete manifestation of that redemption in the redemption of our bodies.

 

[John 8:32]

Christ as God man Adam in the N.T. was born of a woman yet was conceived of the Holy Ghost. He could use NO power that the first Adam had not excess to, to be the Second FAITHFUL Adam! (see John 20:17 for needing Jehovah’s acceptance)

SO: We hear that it is ALL FINISHED at the cross. But what was finished??

New Covenant??

1 John 2:3-6 has John saying it this way...

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

(it was an extension of the Eternal Law of God)

And the purpose was to HAVE it indebted into ones heart. Deut. 10:12

[12] And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
[13] To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

And what do we hear?? satan has CHANGED! Mal. 3:6 states that God does not change! And Heb. 13

[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
[9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

We can see that finished has quite a different meaning. And it could have stated EXTENSION instead as John explained in the next few verses.

SO: What was Finished?

John 17:4 has Inspiration put it this way...

[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have FINISHED the work which [[thou gavest me to do]].

Another? John in John 19:30 says it this way...

[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And in 2 Tim. 4:7 it is stated this way for All who ‘LOVE CHRIST!’

[7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (against satan & his constant lies!)
[8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that [[love his appearing]].

And surely the Eccl. 12:13-14 Scripture says it all!
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

SO, this is the only question to be asked in the ‘CONCLUSION’ of the whole matter as is stated. Where/ever one is at in their ‘GOOD’ MATURING process has one doing right in the saving process!

--Elijah

Daniel foretold what it was...

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All of this verse is not finished, but the way to salvation is. Christ came and paid the ultimate price to give us grace. Now is all finished or is IT finished?

This has not occurred yet...

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If it has, we missed it. We are not of the elect and won't be gathered to Christ.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Missed this too, and this...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So what was finished was the sacrifice for sin. There is no longer need for a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

This was finished, but the entire plan of God is not. There are billions yet to be born that will share in it. It ain't over yet.