James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[dadof10]

Where does James ever say," dead faith in Christ can't save?" (one has to force James into saying this specific false interpretation)

You must be joking.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

What do you think the answer to this question is, yes or no?

Absolutely, positively NO dadof10. The faith in this verse is "if a man" not "if a Brother" says he has faith. The faith in Question does not have CHRIST as the object.

And the example James gives to prove that he’s not talking about a Christian brother’s type of faith is that even the Demons believe God is one, yet they are damned not saved.

Let's remember gr8grace's point. It was "Where does James ever say," dead faith in Christ can't save?"

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Do you think James is talking about "dead faith in Christ" here? Do you think by "my brethren", he is speaking of Christians?

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"


Do you think the "brethren" James is referencing here are believers in Christ?


"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."


Do you think the "faith" mentioned here is faith in Christ that the "brethren" have?



The only way you could possibly think the "dead faith" being described by James here wasn't faith in Christ is if you think there are some group of "brethren" who only believe in God, not in Christ.

Then James says this so called “destroyer verse†in the form of a rhetorical question that supposedly proves OSAS wrong:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21 ESV)

And then James answers the question with a verse that ironically shows us why/how OSAS is in fact true:​

and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it [believed God] was counted to him as righteousnessâ€â€”and he was called a friend of God. (James 2:23 ESV)
​

One must only believe that God knows how to pick a friend to see that OSAS makes sense biblically. OSAS is about God’s strength and power and persistence to His will, not about man’s abilities (initially or later).

The reason this verse "destroys" OSAS is explained in the previous post. I wouldn't have used this word if I knew it would bother you so much.

You need to elaborate on why this verse means that even if a person totally apostatizes, he will still be saved. Your explanation falls short.

 

[chessman]

I think I need to clarify what "backslide" means to me. It doesn't mean when a Christian commits a sin. It means living in sin.

As opposed to sinning while dead or what? What’s the difference in committing one sin, two sins or three sins and "living in sin"? The number of sins? Or the chruch you go to for their forgiveness?

Paul was the “chief among all sinnersâ€, so Scripture defeats your “argument†here since He was "chief" among "backsliders" yet still saved.

If a person who has outwardly proved to others that he is really, truly saved then apostatizes, as I have described above, what would you say about this person?

They fooled a bunch of people. But they never, ever fooled God. Sound familiar? It should.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
​

You couldn't say "he was never saved to begin with", because he has PROVED his true faith

You can capitalize PROVED, make it red font and even make it blink. That doesn’t mean they proved anything to God.

I started to respond to your post point-by-point, but I want to stop right here and ask you how I'm logically wrong?

Logically your fallacies just in this post are:

1. You throw out strawmen arguments for OSAS then defeat them. Like "

If a person who has outwardly proved to others that he is really, truly saved then apostatizes, as I have described above, what would you say about this person?

I don’t know a single reformed scholar that thinks it matters one cent what people think about another person’s salvation. Yet you somehow think you’ve defeated OSAS by pointing out the obvious. People are mistaken about all kinds of things. Another’s salvation (even their own) all the time.

What possible difference would it make to the Judge (God) whether “a person outwardly proved to others that he is really, truly saved� God frankly, couldn’t care less whether I found another person (or myself for that matter) truly saved or not. He gets to decide, not us. Matt 7:21

2. you state premises that are false like:

You couldn't say "he was never saved to begin with", because he has PROVED his true faith

James tells us quite a story about pigs and dogs and just exactly how to tell they are NOT saved. So I most certainly can say when someone was never saved to begin with. Yet he agrees with the fact that the true righteousness of a person is simply left up to God.

 

[MarkT]

If you add 'provided they continue in their belief', would that harm OSAS? After all the sheep will continue. They do continue. They will follow. They do follow. Those that do not follow or fall away were never His sheep. I know brethren that God has predestined us for glory. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Mark,

That argument isn't logical, if you were never one you cannot fall away from being one.

I didn't say you could fall away from being his sheep. His sheep do not fall away. However Jesus had thousands of followers and they all fell away except for the 12 and one was a devil. They turned back, went home, did not continue with him, could not endure his teachings, said he was beside himself, out of his mind, didn't like what they heard; the carpenter's son telling them they were evil, eating with sinners, something about salt, eating his flesh, drinking his blood, doing things against the law, making himself God. They followed him for a while - believed he was a prophet, a good man, then they went back to their daily life.

Hi Mark,

I know you said the sheep don't fall away. My point was that they do. a person could not fall away if they weren't one of the sheep to begin with.

Do you not believe Jesus? No one can make his sheep fall because God himself is holding them up.

When you fall away from Christ Jesus you are falling away from his teachings and his commandments. Those who do not understand his teachings are most likely to fall away. Those who don't have root in themselves, who are dependant on others for their understanding, don't really know, aren't sure, they are easily tempted to fall away from his teachings and go after false teachers. Some bear good fruit for a while but then the cares of the world over take them and they neglect his teachings. Those who understand and keep his teachings and his commandments receive more - more teachings, more understanding, more knowledge, more wisdom. This results in more joy, more happiness, more peace, more security, more everything. 'For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.' Mt. 25:29 Those who fall away from his teachings and those who neglect his commandments will be cast out into the outer darkness. There men will weep and gnash their teeth.

 

[Deborah13]

That is the Ante-Nicene writers they encompass the time from the apostles to about 325 A.D.

I did some reading today, there's a LOT. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Deborah13]

There are a number of such books on history of teachings of the faith, hope this helps. The reviews of these books should help you decide if you want any of them.

Thank you, for all the links, how much easier could you make it? I will have a look probably the easy one is for me. Thank you for taking the time.

 

[MarkT]

Uh, because even though Moses and Aaron did not enter the promised land and died in the desert because of UNbelief they were SAVED anyway.

Jude stresses the importance of belief. You go back to Exodus and say Moses was saved from the anger of God, even though he incurred the anger of God. Then you negate Jude who stresses the importance of belief. Isn't it possible that the LORD was saying you didn't have faith in me? Isn't it possible that the LORD was angry with Moses on account of the people who did not believe? What makes you think Moses fell into unbelief? I'm sure you think you are Moses and you can fall into unbelief and be saved anyway. That is not true. Ignoring the fact Moses was not saved from the anger of God, you keep saying he was. How do you think God feels when you negate his servant Jude who stresses correctly the importance of belief?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

The only problem with your OSAS analysis is the KNOWLEDGE of who is OSAS

Well I have to think about that one. Would you willingly marry your bride not knowing if she was in the end say nope you weren't good enough and I never really wanted you so I'm rejecting you and into the fire you go?

I don't think I want to be married, or Think I'm married and do my best just to find out that I was never really married to start with. He, the groom, never signed the license.

 

[MarkT]

A lack of faith is at least understandable. Even Peter couldn't keep himself from sinking. But I don't see how you can say unbelief is inconsequential. I don't recall ever reading Moses was an unbeliever. If for unbelief, O.K., if that means they did not follow the LORD. But that doesn't mean Moses became an unbeliever, does it? What are you saying? Unbelievers are saved? Then why believe?

 

[George Muller]

Isn't it possible that the LORD was saying you didn't have faith in me? Isn't it possible that the LORD was angry with Moses on account of the people who did not believe? What makes you think Moses fell into unbelief? I'm sure you think you are Moses and you can fall into unbelief and be saved anyway

Have you ever fell into doubts, unbelief? Did God pull you out of it, by His love for you? Do you allow yourself mercy and seek to condemn others? The reason so many struggle with doubts and fears is because we have some many "so-called" christians who are out seeking ways to "unsave" other christians. We are supposed to be building each others faith and confidence in salvation, not this nonsense of finding biblical reasons to "unsave" other believers.

 

[George Muller]

even though Moses and Aaron did not enter the promised land and died in the desert because of UNbelief they were SAVED anyway.

True and I enjoy that when some cannot find a list of rules to bind around a believers neck, they turn to trying to condemn other believers by the standard that some might have an "unsaving" level of faith. These same people have no doubt struggled at times with faith, but they grant themselves unlimited mercy for their unbelief, but try to establish some standard for other believers to judge their salvation. None of them keep the royal law, none of them grant to others the mercy they allow for their own weaknesses. Love your brother as yourself, never really enters their mind, its just another scripture to challenge the salvation of another believer. How far are these people from knowing God?

Some search the scriptures that they might know the Life that is in Christ and share that life with others. Some search the scriptures that they might find a charge against others and seperate others from the life in Christ. This is a sad testimony against some of you, If I where you, I would stop trying to unsave others and seek to know the "will of God" because some of you are far from that will.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

George, where does the Bible state that? Where does Romans 2 suggest any "born again" idea?

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is if it fulfil by nature, The law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost
transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Surely you can see that "uncircumcision" is speaking of the gentiles, who are circumcised in heart, by the Spirit? How do you think this happened? They where born-again of the Spirit.

Surely they received the Spirit of God. "Born again"?? They were totally unaware of such designation.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

If you had such a neighbor, would you feel comfortable considering them a Christian? I think we could. They would consider themselves Muslim and pray to Allah. They would be wrong on a number of there ideas about who God is and not taking the final step on who Jesus is. Perhaps we could evangelize such people carefully. But at the end of the day, is knowledge or love more important?

This sounds to me like you are indeed suggesting that a muslim need not accept Christ, but that they just need to be nice to others.

Nope.

 

[francisdesales]

I didn't say you could fall away from being his sheep. His sheep do not fall away. However Jesus had thousands of followers and they all fell away except for the 12 and one was a devil. They turned back, went home, did not continue with him, could not endure his teachings, said he was beside himself, out of his mind, didn't like what they heard; the carpenter's son telling them they were evil, eating with sinners, something about salt, eating his flesh, drinking his blood, doing things against the law, making himself God. They followed him for a while - believed he was a prophet, a good man, then they went back to their daily life.

Hi Mark,

I know you said the sheep don't fall away. My point was that they do. a person could not fall away if they weren't one of the sheep to begin with.

Jesus said "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." What does this mean to you Butch?

Mark, that passage you are refering to in John 6 is the apostles and disciples. Jesus verifies this in the Garden in John 18.

Regards

 

[George Muller]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

George, where does the Bible state that? Where does Romans 2 suggest any "born again" idea?

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is if it fulfil by nature, The law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost
transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Surely you can see that "uncircumcision" is speaking of the gentiles, who are circumcised in heart, by the Spirit? How do you think this happened? They where born-again of the Spirit.

Surely they received the Spirit of God. "Born again"?? They were totally unaware of such designation.

Regards

What? They did not know, they where born-again of the Spirit of God?
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I think you might want to reconsider your understanding of the scriptures?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

The only problem with your OSAS analysis is the KNOWLEDGE of who is OSAS

Well I have to think about that one. Would you willingly marry your bride not knowing if she was in the end say nope you weren't good enough and I never really wanted you so I'm rejecting you and into the fire you go?

I don't think I want to be married, or Think I'm married and do my best just to find out that I was never really married to start with. He, the groom, never signed the license.

It doesn't work that way. We "know" we are in love and the marriage will not end! But this "knowledge" is not absolute. Either party can fall away. I don't think many marry thinking that they will soon get a divorce (which is what OSAS presumes when/if one DID fall away). What happens is that people lose faith - in their spouse or in God. It is gradual. Things don't go as expected, in either case. At some point, people may decide, "this isn't for me". "Why bother". "I don't love him/Him anymore" "What have you done for me lately" In other words, in either case, selfishness and concern for self take over as faith in the other person declines and withers away.

Can such a "marriage" be still called a marriage? Is THAT salvation?

Regards

 

[George Muller]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

If you had such a neighbor, would you feel comfortable considering them a Christian? I think we could. They would consider themselves Muslim and pray to Allah. They would be wrong on a number of there ideas about who God is and not taking the final step on who Jesus is. Perhaps we could evangelize such people carefully. But at the end of the day, is knowledge or love more important?

This sounds to me like you are indeed suggesting that a muslim need not accept Christ, but that they just need to be nice to others.

Nope.

Well, I cannot see how anyone could read your post on this issue and not understand your post to read that faith in Christ is not really needed for some muslims to be saved?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Surely you can see that "uncircumcision" is speaking of the gentiles, who are circumcised in heart, by the Spirit? How do you think this happened? They where born-again of the Spirit.

Surely they received the Spirit of God. "Born again"?? They were totally unaware of such designation.

Regards

What? They did not know, they where born-again of the Spirit of God?
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I think you might want to reconsider your understanding of the scriptures?

You are convoluting Romans 2 with Romans 8. Paul is not speaking about Gentiles of the Christian community in Romans 2. Christians who are Gentiles are/were aware of the Mosaic Law. They (of Romans 2) are not Christians of the Roman community.

Regards

 

[George Muller]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Surely you can see that "uncircumcision" is speaking of the gentiles, who are circumcised in heart, by the Spirit? How do you think this happened? They where born-again of the Spirit.

Surely they received the Spirit of God. "Born again"?? They were totally unaware of such designation.

Regards

What? They did not know, they where born-again of the Spirit of God?
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I think you might want to reconsider your understanding of the scriptures?

You are convoluting Romans 2 with Romans 8. Paul is not speaking about Gentiles of the Christian community in Romans 2. Christians who are Gentiles are/were aware of the Mosaic Law. They (of Romans 2) are not Christians of the Roman community.

Regards

So in order for your understanding of this passage to be true, one must ignore other scripture? Even that which is written in the same epistle? And of course Paul is speaking of gentile christians and saying that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in and through them by the Spirit of God, thus judging them who by the letter trangress the law.

Ro 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

The only problem with your OSAS analysis is the KNOWLEDGE of who is OSAS

Well I have to think about that one. Would you willingly marry your bride not knowing if she was in the end say nope you weren't good enough and I never really wanted you so I'm rejecting you and into the fire you go?

I don't think I want to be married, or Think I'm married and do my best just to find out that I was never really married to start with. He, the groom, never signed the license.

It doesn't work that way. We "know" we are in love and the marriage will not end! But this "knowledge" is not absolute. Either party can fall away. I don't think many marry thinking that they will soon get a divorce (which is what OSAS presumes when/if one DID fall away). What happens is that people lose faith - in their spouse or in God. It is gradual. Things don't go as expected, in either case. At some point, people may decide, "this isn't for me". "Why bother". "I don't love him/Him anymore" "What have you done for me lately" In other words, in either case, selfishness and concern for self take over as faith in the other person declines and withers away.

Can such a "marriage" be still called a marriage? Is THAT salvation?

Regards

Aka, soil #2 in the parable of the sower.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

If you had such a neighbor, would you feel comfortable considering them a Christian? I think we could. They would consider themselves Muslim and pray to Allah. They would be wrong on a number of there ideas about who God is and not taking the final step on who Jesus is. Perhaps we could evangelize such people carefully. But at the end of the day, is knowledge or love more important?

This sounds to me like you are indeed suggesting that a muslim need not accept Christ, but that they just need to be nice to others.

Nope.

Well, I cannot see how anyone could read your post on this issue and not understand your post to read that faith in Christ is not really needed for some muslims to be saved?

Who, or what, saved Noah? Who was he listening to when he heeded the warning and responded in faith? Who did those who were lost hear, but not respond to?