James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[mailmandan]

The obedience of faith is simply this…

God speaks to you in which you receive faith.

You do what God speaks to you to do.

That’s what “by faith” means.

According to that argument, one would erroneously conclude that faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. Prior to my conversion that is basically how I defined faith. I was once in a conversation with a Roman Catholic and he made the same error. Here is his statement below in blue:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, etc..

At first, this Roman Catholic told me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making that statement above, similar to what you did. His sugar-coated double talk equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works and so does yours.

 

[JLB]

According to that argument, one would erroneously conclude that faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works.

Water baptism is for people who have already believed and been saved.

 

[JLB]

as long as you properly define "Faith".

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Faith is a noun. It’s something.

It’s something you receive from God when He speaks to you.

Faith is activated or made alive when we do what God speaks to us to do.

Apart from our obedience, faith is dead; dormant, inactive and incomplete.

Like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without the corresponding work or action of obedience is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Example:

And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22


God spoke to (inspired; moved upon) this women to touch the hem of His garment.

When this woman obeyed she was healed.


If she would have stayed behind, fearful of the crowd and the consequences of an unclean woman touching a Rabbi, then the faith she received would have remained dormant (dead) and unable to heal.

 

[mailmandan]

Is believing in your heart a “work”?

Is confessing Jesus as Lord a “work”?

Neither believing in our heart or confessing Jesus as Lord are works for salvation. Through believing and confessing, we are trusting in and confirming Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption).

If so, then I guess the thief on the cross was guilty of a works salvation.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-43

The thief confessed Jesus as Lord.

He believed Jesus would live on beyond His death and be King of the kingdom of God, thus he believed Jesus would be raised from the dead.

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) The confession of the thief confirmed his faith. Of course, the thief on the cross died while still hanging on the cross before having the opportunity to be water baptized or accomplish any other good works. The other thief did not exhibit faith, but instead, continued to blaspheme Jesus, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

 

[JLB]

Neither believing in our heart or confessing Jesus as Lord are works for salvation.

Amen. I agree.

 

[mailmandan]

Water baptism is for people who have already believed and been saved.

That's true yet you said - The obedience of faith is simply this…God speaks to you in which you receive faith. You do what God speaks to you to do. That’s what “by faith” means.

Did God speak to us to be water baptized? According to your argument then, we get water baptized "by faith" which culminates in faith "is" water baptism. That is basically what Roman Catholics teach, as I demonstrated in post #21.

 

[JLB]

Neither believing in our heart or confessing Jesus as Lord are works for salvation. Through believing and confessing, we are trusting in and confirming Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption).

Ok.

 

[JLB]

That's true yet you said - The obedience of faith is simply this…God speaks to you in which you receive faith. You do what God speaks to you to do. That’s what “by faith” means.

That’s exactly what the term “by faith” means.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to (warned) Noah about the flood, instructing him to build the Ark. Noah now has faith.

Noah obeys.

Noah becomes the heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


This is important since Noah is now in the same position as Adam. The rest of mankind now comes from Noah.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s exactly what the term “by faith” means.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

By faith here means that it was by or "out of' faith that Noah built the ark. Not faith "is" in essence building the ark. That would culminate in salvation by works. Noah believed God 's warning about flooding the earth and acted accordingly.

God spoke to (warned) Noah about the flood, instructing him to build the Ark. Noah now has faith.

Noah obeys.

Noah becomes the heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

This is important since Noah is now in the same position as Adam. The rest of mankind now comes from Noah.

Noah had faith before he built the ark. Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. (Genesis 6:8,9) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

 

[JLB]

Noah believed God 's warning about flooding the earth and acted accordingly.

Yes. Exactly.

He believed and therefore obeyed.

Believing without the action of obedience results in nothing.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes. Exactly.

He believed and therefore obeyed.

Believing without the action of obedience results in nothing.

Building the ark, saved Noah and his family from drowning. Do you believe that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, was a just man and walked with God before or not until after he built the ark?

 

[donadams]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

james 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

NO!

faith alone is faith without works (supernatural virtues that are also gifts of God) is dead, and dead faith saves no one, besides we are saved by God's grace, living faith or faith living thru love is one requirement for salvation!
Amen! 1 cor 13:2 faith without the supernatural virtue of charity (notice vs 3 natural charity is not enough) avails nothing!

1 cor 13 explains the quality of the supernatural virtue of Charity or love of God!

(((1 cor 13:13 three things are eternal)))

Three things are eternal, faith, hope, & charity and these have an interconnected unity!

(((1 cor 13:7 charity believes all things)))

(((1 cor 13:8 charity NEVER fails)))

 

[Eternally-grateful]

2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
James 2 is not about having no faith without works. James 2 is about not having the faith of the Lord Jesus, without doing His good works.

The error of James 2 is not about claiming any faith, but rather is specifically about claiming to have the faith of the Lord Jesus.

The general Bible principle is that any faith without works, is dead. The doctrine of Christ is that any faith in God without good works, is dead to God.

2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Trying to say James 2 is only about having dead faith without any works, is an error and a diversion from the specific rebuke in James 2: Which is against having one's own faith in God, that is not the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, because it has not the good works of Christ.

James e acknowledges some having faith in God, but their faith is their own alone, if it is without doing His good will. It's not the faith of Jesus. And therefore they are trusting in their own faith alone, apart from doing His good works, to save them.

2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Ps 12:3-4
The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

And so, the faith they do have in God cannot save their own soul, because it is not the saving faith of Jesus, that is always doing those works pleasing to the Father.

James 2 is specifically against having any salvation without works. It rebukes anyone naming the name of Christ, and claiming to be saved by one's own faith apart from Christ's works.

Any faith one has in God, that is apart from His good works, is apart from His Christ.

Therefore, anyone preaching any gospel of having salvation only by faith alone, apart from doing Christ's good works, is preaching one's own gospel alone, and claiming to be saved by having their own faith in God, apart from the saving faith of Jesus.

Anyone on earth having faith without works, has dead faith. Anyone having faith in God without doing His good works, has faith of his own alone and dead to God.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The gift of God is the faith of Jesus to them that repent of sinning against God, to receive His Son and His saving faith always do the Father's good will.

Any faith in God apart from doing His works, is of oneself alone. It is not the gift of the God of Christ Jesus.

James 2 is James attacking a false theology of a belief you can be a hear of the word. but not a doer of the word. You can claim to have faith and still be saved.

His answer is no.

If you claim to have faith

a claimed faith is not faith itself. it is a claim you have it

 

[donadams]

Is believing in your heart a “work”?

Is confessing Jesus as Lord a “work”?

If so, then I guess the thief on the cross was guilty of a works salvation.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-43

The thief confessed Jesus as Lord.

He believed Jesus would live on beyond His death and be King of the kingdom of God, thus he believed Jesus would be raised from the dead.

if you must choose (volition) to do so then yes it is

 

[Eternally-grateful]

if you must choose (volition) to do so then yes it is

how is it a work?

 

[mailmandan]

james 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

NO!

faith alone is faith without works (supernatural virtues that are also gifts of God) is dead, and dead faith saves no one, besides we are saved by God's grace, living faith or faith living thru love is one requirement for salvation!

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Amen! 1 cor 13:2 faith without the supernatural virtue of charity (notice vs 3 natural charity is not enough) avails nothing!

1 cor 13 explains the quality of the supernatural virtue of Charity or love of God!

(((1 cor 13:13 three things are eternal)))

Three things are eternal, faith, hope, & charity and these have an interconnected unity!

(((1 cor 13:7 charity believes all things)))

(((1 cor 13:8 charity NEVER fails)))

In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

All who are born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But, you're taking that out of context. We are not "justified [declared righteous] by works." If obedience is a work, and it is, then it doesn't make us righteous.

Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the widows and orphans, telling the truth, not cheating on my taxes, all declare that I am righteous.
I may have been righteous already, but my works make it known/declare it.

On what grounds do you differentiate "the work or action of obedience" from "works of righteousness"? If works of righteousness aren't the works or actions of obedience, what are they?

 

[Free]

The context of the word “works” is obedience.

Specifically obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

The important word in the context is "justified," which in this context does not mean he was declared righteous, but that he was seen to be righteous by his obedience. That is, his obedience in Gen. 22 was evidence of having righteousness imputed around 20 years prior, in Gen. 15:6, "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness" (ESV). He believed the promise that God told him and was justified for it, then based on his faith in God's promise, was ready and willing to sacrifice Isaac.

The context.

The context is Abraham obeying God to offer his son Issac on the altar.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:20-23

That doesn't tell me anything. I am asking you, based on your statements of "the work or action of obedience" and "works of righteousness," what the difference is between those two statements.

Please provide a scripture using the phrase “works of righteousness” so I can see the context you are using it in.

You're the one using the statement, not me.

 

[JLB]

The important word in the context is "justified," which in this context does not mean he was declared righteous, but that he was seen to be righteous by his obedience. That is, his obedience in Gen. 22 was evidence of having righteousness imputed around 20 years prior, in Gen. 15:6,

The action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar is how Abraham’s faith became complete, from 20 years prior.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

 

[JLB]

That doesn't tell me anything. I am asking you, based on your statements of "the work or action of obedience" and "works of righteousness," what the difference is between those two statements.

Your the one who says works of righteousness, not me.

I’m referring to the biblical principle of obedience of faith.

Please show me the scripture you are referring to that talks about works of righteousness.