James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[JLB]

You're the one using the statement, not me.

I’m responding to your statements that use the phrase “works of righteousness”.


I have said the context of James 2:21 is obedience; the “work” of obedience.

I also plainly qualified my statement by saying:

Not good works
Not works that earn a wage
Not works of righteousness
Not works of the law

I say this because I get accused by others of teaching salvation by works, so I use these phrases which others use against me.

So, if your asking me about comparing the obedience of faith with the works of righteousness I will need a scripture that uses this phrase so I can answer your question.

 

[Free]

The action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar is how Abraham’s faith became complete, from 20 years prior.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

Yes, after he was already declared righteous based on his faith. Why do you keep avoiding that point?

Your the one who says works of righteousness, not me.

No, you said it, in response to someone else who also didn't mention it, HERE, your post #11.

I’m referring to the biblical principle of obedience of faith.

I asked you in the other thread to succinctly define what you mean by "obedience of faith," but you did not do so. Please do so.

Please show me the scripture you are referring to that talks about works of righteousness.

You're the one who mentioned it, in opposition to "obedience of faith":

"Not good works
Not works of righteousness
Not works that earn a wage
Not the works of the law

But the work or action of obedience; the obedience of faith."

Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about, here is the only verse it is mentioned:

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (KJV)

Maybe now you can explain what you mean. If the works or actions of obedience aren't works of righteousness, what are they? Are they works of unrighteousness? If not, what else can they be?

 

[Free]

I’m responding to your statements that use the phrase “works of righteousness”.

Please show me where I have used that phrase.

I have said the context of James 2:21 is obedience; the “work” of obedience.

I also plainly qualified my statement by saying:

Not good works
Not works that earn a wage
Not works of righteousness
Not works of the law

I say this because I get accused by others of teaching salvation by works, so I use these phrases which others use against me.

You are, because you're teaching, in your own words, 'the "work" of obedience.' You can claim it's different from "good works" or "works of righteousness," but a work is a work is a work. It means that the result of that work is what is owed, which is salvation by works.

 

[JLB]

Please show me where I have used that phrase.

On what grounds do you differentiate "the work or action of obedience" from "works of righteousness"? If works of righteousness aren't the works or actions of obedience, what are they?

That was from this thread.

We have had this same discussion on this topic in other threads.

I’m not going to search this entire forum to find where you have used this phrase.

If you say you have never used this phrase, then so be it.

Over the years in discussing this topic, these are the phrases that have been used by others.



JLB

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Your the one who says works of righteousness, not me.

I’m referring to the biblical principle of obedience of faith.

Please show me the scripture you are referring to that talks about works of righteousness.

titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[JLB]

You are, because you're teaching, in your own words, 'the "work" of obedience.' You can claim it's different from "good works" or "works of righteousness," but a work is a work is a work. It means that the result of that work is what is owed, which is salvation by works.

Ok. So here it is again, you are trying so desperately to say I’m teaching a “work salvation” message that you are trying to mix together the phrase “works of righteousness” with the obedience of faith as if they are the same thing.

This is what many have done over the years and these are the phrases that have been used.

Not good works
Not works of righteousness
Not works that earn a wage
Not the works of the law


When God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, Abraham….

Did not go and do a good or righteous thing like giving food to the hungry, or clothes to the naked, or water to the thirsty, so as to deserve his justification.

Abraham didn’t go and try to earn his justification, by doing some “work” as is justification is something that can be earned like a wage.

Abraham wasn’t granted justification because he kept the law of Moses perfectly since the law of Moses didn’t come for another 430 years.


Abraham obeyed what God spoke to him to do, which is how faith comes to us, and therefore he was justified by God, according to the obedience of faith.



JLB

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Ok. So here it is again, you are trying so desperately to say I’m teaching a “work salvation” message that you are trying to mix together the phrase “works of righteousness” with the obedience of faith as if they are the same thing.

this can be resolved easily

1. Are works required to be saved?
2. Are works required to stay saved?
3. Are works required to keep from losing salvation?

 

[JLB]

titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Amen. We are not saved by works of righteousness.

We are saved by obeying the gospel; which is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

 

[donadams]

how is it a work?

the definition of a work or act is the exercise or engagement of the will.
choosing / volition

Jn 3:16 believes is perpetual present tense

we must believe and continue to believe until death
Jn 15;4 abide in Christ
mk 13;13 matt 24;13 endure to the end to be saved

thks

 

[JLB]

Jn 3:16 believes is perpetual present tense

we must believe and continue to believe until death
Jn 15;4 abide in Christ
mk 13;13 matt 24;13 endure to the end to be saved

Amen.

 

[JLB]

this can be resolved easily

1. Are works required to be saved?
2. Are works required to stay saved?
3. Are works required to keep from losing salvation?

Obedience is required for salvation.

Obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Simple.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

 

[donadams]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

All who are born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

faith and baptism required for salvation, no problem

worship is also part of salvation

even luther said the eucharist is required for salvation?

eph 2:8 refers to the redemption accomplished by Christ

apart from works means natural works apart from union with Christ and His grace

thks

 

[Eternally-grateful]

the definition of a work or act is the exercise or engagement of the will.
choosing / volition

Actually a definition of a works is doing something to earn a wage, a reward.

Thats why it is not of works lest anyone should boast (take credit or puff themselves up as shown in eph 2 and romans 4)

Jn 3:16 believes is perpetual present tense

we must believe and continue to believe until death
Jn 15;4 abide in Christ
mk 13;13 matt 24;13 endure to the end to be saved

thks

Then you have not been born again, and you do not have eternal life.

You can not have it both ways

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Obedience is required for salvation.

Obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Simple.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Well then you just contradicted yourself. and proved you were not being honest

Ok. So here it is again, you are trying so desperately to say I’m teaching a “work salvation” message that you are trying to mix together the phrase “works of righteousness” with the obedience of faith as if they are the same thing.

because that is exactly what you are doing

 

[Walpole]

Is the Vineyard (the Kingdom of God), for the laborers or for those who do not labor?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...-2&version=KJV


Is it possible to be in the Vineyard without being a laborer? Who does the will of the Father in the Vineyard, the one who works or the one who doesn't?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...32&version=ESV


Cheap grace is for those who stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...atthew+20:1-16


Only the workers can enter the vineyard.

 

[JLB]

Well then you just contradicted yourself. and proved you were not being honest

How so?

Please explain how I contradicted myself.

To be saved we must obey the Gospel.

Do you disagree?

 

[donadams]

Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the widows and orphans, telling the truth, not cheating on my taxes, all declare that I am righteous.
I may have been righteous already, but my works make it known/declare it.

not work of the law or the law itself!

but James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

1 Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

CHAPTER III HOPE
135. Will Faith alone save us?
Faith alone will not save us without good works; we must also have Hope and Charity.
136. What is Hope?
Hope is a supernatural gift of God, by which we firmly trust that God will give us eternal life and all the means necessary to obtain it, if we do
what He requires of us.
137. Why must we hope in God?
We must hope in God because He is infinitely good, infinitely powerful, and faithful to His promises.
138. Can we do any good work of ourselves towards our salvation?

We can do no good work of ourselves towards our salvation; we need the help of God's grace.
139. What is grace?
Grace is a supernatural gift of God, freely bestowed upon us for our sanctification and salvation.
140. How must we obtain God's grace?
We must obtain God's grace chiefly by prayer and the holy Sacraments.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Is the Vineyard (the Kingdom of God), for the laborers or for those who do not labor?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...-2&version=KJV


Is it possible to be in the Vineyard without being a laborer? Who does the will of the Father in the Vineyard, the one who works or the one who doesn't?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...32&version=ESV


Cheap grace is for those who stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...atthew+20:1-16


Only the workers can enter the vineyard.

Grace was not cheap

It cost the son his life and the cross.

Lets try to mock what Jesus did as cheap

 

[Eternally-grateful]

How so?

Please explain how I contradicted myself.

To be saved we must obey the Gospel.

Do you disagree?

The gospel.

believe in the name of the lord Jesus christ and you will be saved

That whoever sees and believes will not perish but has eternal life

That the bread from heaven is here. and if we partake in faith, we will have eternal life and not perish, and have Gods promise he will raise.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believed.

Jesus came not to judge but to save

that's the gospel. Being obedient to it is to receive it in faith.

Now if your trying to work for it. You can not receive it. You will be rejected. Because you believed in self. not God

 

[Eternally-grateful]

not work of the law or the law itself!

but James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

1 Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

CHAPTER III HOPE
135. Will Faith alone save us?
Faith alone will not save us without good works; we must also have Hope and Charity.
136. What is Hope?
Hope is a supernatural gift of God, by which we firmly trust that God will give us eternal life and all the means necessary to obtain it, if we do
what He requires of us.
137. Why must we hope in God?
We must hope in God because He is infinitely good, infinitely powerful, and faithful to His promises.
138. Can we do any good work of ourselves towards our salvation?

We can do no good work of ourselves towards our salvation; we need the help of God's grace.
139. What is grace?
Grace is a supernatural gift of God, freely bestowed upon us for our sanctification and salvation.
140. How must we obtain God's grace?
We must obtain God's grace chiefly by prayer and the holy Sacraments.

why do people reject Romans 4?

You want to purify yourself. go to the cross..

Otherwise you will fail