James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[donadams]

The important word in the context is "justified," which in this context does not mean he was declared righteous, but that he was seen to be righteous by his obedience. That is, his obedience in Gen. 22 was evidence of having righteousness imputed around 20 years prior, in Gen. 15:6, "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness" (ESV). He believed the promise that God told him and was justified for it, then based on his faith in God's promise, was ready and willing to sacrifice Isaac.


That doesn't tell me anything. I am asking you, based on your statements of "the work or action of obedience" and "works of righteousness," what the difference is between those two statements.


You're the one using the statement, not me.

then we would be justified by both the belief in God's promise and the fulfillment

if Noah did not build the ark they would have drowned with the rest of the world?

 

[donadams]

Actually a definition of a works is doing something to earn a wage, a reward.

Thats why it is not of works lest anyone should boast (take credit or puff themselves up as shown in eph 2 and romans 4)

Then you have not been born again, and you do not have eternal life.

You can not have it both ways

how are we born again?

 

[donadams]

The gospel.

believe in the name of the lord Jesus christ and you will be saved

That whoever sees and believes will not perish but has eternal life

That the bread from heaven is here. and if we partake in faith, we will have eternal life and not perish, and have Gods promise he will raise.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believed.

Jesus came not to judge but to save

that's the gospel. Being obedient to it is to receive it in faith.

Now if your trying to work for it. You can not receive it. You will be rejected. Because you believed in self. not God

and mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

 

[donadams]

why do people reject Romans 4?

You want to purify yourself. go to the cross..

Otherwise you will fail

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin


1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Baptismal regeneration)


John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (((Life))) Jn 1:16-17 Jn 3:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 life of God by His grace!

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1 Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

thks

 

[donadams]

Actually a definition of a works is doing something to earn a wage, a reward.

Thats why it is not of works lest anyone should boast (take credit or puff themselves up as shown in eph 2 and romans 4)

Then you have not been born again, and you do not have eternal life.

You can not have it both ways

does the fact that God's gifts have requirements somehow make them earned and no longer Gifts?

Jesus gives the requirements for salvation:
"faith and baptism" mk 16:16

James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

matt 6:33 but seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy

 

[donadams]

Well then you just contradicted yourself. and proved you were not being honest



because that is exactly what you are doing

there is a big difference between natural works and good works

natural works are dead devoid of grace apart from Christ!

Good works are full of grace with us united to Christ and the bearing of fruit, merits, value in God's eyes

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[donadams]

why do people reject Romans 4?

You want to purify yourself. go to the cross..

Otherwise you will fail

what about

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Christians called to a life of Suffering in union with Christ for the salvation of souls & the love of God!

No servant is greater than his master. Jn 13:16

Christ is our model in suffering. Matt 16:24 Our suffer for His sake, Phil 1:29 for the sake of His body the church. Col 1:24 for the salvation of souls. Phil 1:19

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin


1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Baptismal regeneration)


John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (((Life))) Jn 1:16-17 Jn 3:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 life of God by His grace!

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1 Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

thks

Romans 3 Was Abraham saved because of his works? Did Abraham purify himself by his power?

 

[Eternally-grateful]

does the fact that God's gifts have requirements somehow make them earned and no longer Gifts?

Yes. A gift is freely given A reward or wage is earned

Jesus gives the requirements for salvation:
"faith and baptism" mk 16:16

James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

matt 6:33 but seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy

I should have known

Good luck

 

[Free]

then we would be justified by both the belief in God's promise and the fulfillment

Please define what you mean by "justified."

if Noah did not build the ark they would have drowned with the rest of the world?

No idea. That would be a question to ask God.

 

[Free]

Ok. So here it is again, you are trying so desperately to say I’m teaching a “work salvation” message that you are trying to mix together the phrase “works of righteousness” with the obedience of faith as if they are the same thing.

But that is why I have twice asked you to define the terms to show how they're different. You have yet to do so. All you say is that obedience is a work that is required for salvation, which is salvation by works.

This is what many have done over the years and these are the phrases that have been used.

Not good works
Not works of righteousness
Not works that earn a wage
Not the works of the law

If the work of obedience is not a work of righteousness, then what is it? Is it a work of self, which would be an unrighteous work? Or, is a work of the Holy Spirit, a work of righteousness, which then contradicts your claim? It must be one or the other. I think it would be a tough sell to argue that there are neutral works.

When God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, Abraham….

Did not go and do a good or righteous thing like giving food to the hungry, or clothes to the naked, or water to the thirsty, so as to deserve his justification.

You mean, he didn't obey commands to give food to the hungry or clothes to the naked or water to the thirsty, he obeyed the command to offer Isaac on the altar. What is the difference? Why is obeying God righteous when helping others but not when he asks something personal?

Abraham didn’t go and try to earn his justification, by doing some “work” as is justification is something that can be earned like a wage.

But that is what your understanding of James leads to.

Abraham wasn’t granted justification because he kept the law of Moses perfectly since the law of Moses didn’t come for another 430 years.


Abraham obeyed what God spoke to him to do, which is how faith comes to us, and therefore he was justified by God, according to the obedience of faith.

He was declared righteous before Isaac was even conceived, based solely on his faith in the promises of God.

 

[donadams]

Romans 3 Was Abraham saved because of his works? Did Abraham purify himself by his power?

God is the souce and first cos of all things

grants His grace and gifts to us by faith and baptism mk 16:16
then we are in Christ a new creation with God's gifts fruits virtues we can persevere till death abiding in Christ by faith, hope and Charity!
members of Christ in the church we must persevere to the end!
Jn 15:1-5
mk 13:13
matt 24:13

thks

 

[donadams]

Romans 3 Was Abraham saved because of his works? Did Abraham purify himself by his power?

salvation by grace

abraham was justified by faith and obedience

 

[donadams]

Yes. A gift is freely given A reward or wage is earned

I should have known

Good luck

why are there requirements then?

even if you a "faith alone" alone believer it is grace by faith!
grace is the gift, and faith is the requirement???

 

[donadams]

Yes. A gift is freely given A reward or wage is earned

I should have known

Good luck

have you never heard of a father who gives his son a new bicycle if he makes an A on his report card?

still a free gift!

the requirement does not change that, the son is not paying for the gift.

thks

 

[donadams]

man is created in the image and likeness of God (intellectul and will)
gen 1:26

both must be involved in the christian life and worship!

faith alone only involves the intellect!

obedience involves the will!
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Matthew 10:24
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Is it possible to be in the Vineyard without being a laborer? Who does the will of the Father in the Vineyard, the one who works or the one who doesn't?

who does his fathers will the one who says yes but does not go, or the one who say no but actually go's?

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

obedience is a virtue involving the will (volition) to choose to obey!

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

1 Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

not work of the law or the law itself!

but James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

gal 5:13-25

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

live by the spirit (grace) walk by yhe spirit (acts of rightousness & justice)

matt 13:3-8
the good seed of the gospel

all 4 had faith but not salvation not perseverance (fruit)

 

[donadams]

Please define what you mean by "justified."


No idea. That would be a question to ask God.

who was saved from the flood?

 

[Free]

who was saved from the flood?

What does this have to do with anything? Please define what you mean by "justified." That is central to everything.

 

[JLB]

But that is why I have twice asked you to define the terms to show how they're different.

From post 46 -


When God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, Abraham….

Did not go and do a good or righteous thing like giving food to the hungry, or clothes to the naked, or water to the thirsty, so as to deserve his justification.

Abraham didn’t go and try to earn his justification, by doing some “work” as is justification is something that can be earned like a wage.

Abraham wasn’t granted justification because he kept the law of Moses perfectly since the law of Moses didn’t come for another 430 years.


Abraham obeyed what God spoke to him to do, which is how faith comes to us, and therefore he was justified by God, according to the obedience of faith.

 

[donadams]

please explain these

awareness is knowledge, does being aware of God mean we have eternal life?

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 4:36
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

thks