James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[mailmandan]

Repent means turn to God, as the scriptures teach.

When we change our mind and place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, (Acts 20:21) as a result, we turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. (Acts 26:18)

The way we obey the Gospel command REPENT is to confess Jesus as Lord.

The gospel command is not confess Jesus as Lord as a work for salvation. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Lord after they have already repented. Repent is not defined as confess Jesus as Lord and the gospel command is to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

This is the “confession” of faith, that demonstrates that we acknowledge Jesus as our Lord, in which we have turned away from Satan as our lord.

Yes, it is a confirmation.

in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God

Can you see Jesus use the words “turn them from” in which they will be “turned to” God?

Then Paul relates how he understood what Jesus said to king Agrippa.

• that they should repent, turn to God

Repent (change your mind) and turn to God as a result.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20

Yes, when we repent we (change our mind) and place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (sanctified by faith in Me) and as a result, we turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Works are the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) and they show we have repented. (Acts 26:20) Just make sure you don't confuse the fruit of repentance (works befitting repentance) with the essence of repentance. (change of mind) The end result culminates in salvation by works.

 

[donadams]

baptismal regeneration means born again
new life in Christ by His grace ez 36:25-27
Jn 3:5
Matt 28:19
act 2:38-39
titus 3:5

brought to life, the life of God in us (grace)
Jn 1:16-17
Jn 10:10
Jn 14:6
eph 2:1 & 5
thks

why sad?
what was the result of Jn 3:5?
"faith alone" or baptism?
Jn 3-22-23

22 ;After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

baptism! "water & the spirit"

thks

 

[donadams]

THE SACRAMENTS
249. What is a Sacrament?
A Sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace, ordained by Jesus Christ, by which grace is given to our souls.
250. Do the Sacraments always give grace?
The Sacraments always give grace to those who receive them worthily.
251. Whence have the Sacraments the power of giving grace?
The Sacraments have the power of giving grace from the merits of Christ's Precious Blood, which they apply to our souls.
252. Ought we to have a great desire to receive the Sacraments?
We ought to have a great desire to receive the Sacraments, because they are the chief means of our salvation.
253. Is a character given to the soul by any of the Sacraments? A character is given to the soul by the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Order.
254. What is a character?
A character is a mark or seal on the soul which cannot be effaced, and therefore the Sacrament conferring it may not be repeated.
255. How many Sacraments are there?
There are seven Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Order, and Matrimony.
To Top BAPTISM
256. What is Baptism?
Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from original sin, makes us

Christians, children of God, and members of the Church.
257. Does Baptism also forgive actual sins?
Baptism also forgives actual sins, with all punishment due to them, when it is received in proper dispositions by those who have been guilty of actual sin.
258. Who is the ordinary minister of Baptism?
The ordinary minister of Baptism is a priest; but any one may baptize in case of necessity, when a priest cannot be had.
259. How is Baptism given?
Baptism is given by pouring water on the head of the child, saying at the same time these words, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
260. What do we promise in Baptism?
We promise in Baptism to renounce the devil and all his works and pomps.
261. Is Baptism necessary for salvation?
Baptism is necessary for salvation, because Christ has said, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5.)

thks

why sad?
a sacrament is an oath, a sacred promise from God!

God promises the grace of eternal life applies to our souls in the sacraments!

acts 2:38-39 this promise?
ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a bettercovenant, which was established upon better promises.
thks

 

[JLB]

When we change our mind and place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation,

Faith is a noun. It’s something we receive from the Lord when we hear Him speak to us.

Are you saying we take the faith we received from the Lord and somehow “place it back” in Jesus?

 

[donadams]

The second clause clarifies the first - but he who does not believe will be condemned. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 1125,26) Then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. (Mark 16:16) Yet its still the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

If one is an atheist, sure. Yet there are plenty of "nominal" Christians (in various false religions and cults) who have been water baptized (because they beliece it will save them) whose faith falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Make believers get water baptized all the time. Babies are incapable of believing so infant baptism is unwarranted and unbiblical.

That's exactly what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Also see Luke 8:12; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).

That's exactly what you did. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

I already covered this I can see that you ignore the words of Christ in the second half of Mark 16:16 along with (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) for the sake of your biased church doctrine.

This is Spirit baptism and not water baptism.

There are numerous passages of scripture that clearly teach, we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..)

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Jesus word is eternal and we cannot reject them.

they are absolute (Jn14:6) and what is required to keep from being condemned

the other verses like Jn 4:15-16 include the imply thr entire christian faith including baptism

jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom on your own by faith alone
2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
sealed by faith alone, how is that possible?
thks

2pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (faith alone)

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(even if you think your saved by faith alone)
thks

 

[onlysaved]

2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
James 2 is not about having no faith without works. James 2 is about not having the faith of the Lord Jesus, without doing His good works.

The error of James 2 is not about claiming any faith, but rather is specifically about claiming to have the faith of the Lord Jesus.

The general Bible principle is that any faith without works, is dead. The doctrine of Christ is that any faith in God without good works, is dead to God.

2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Trying to say James 2 is only about having dead faith without any works, is an error and a diversion from the specific rebuke in James 2: Which is against having one's own faith in God, that is not the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, because it has not the good works of Christ.

James e acknowledges some having faith in God, but their faith is their own alone, if it is without doing His good will. It's not the faith of Jesus. And therefore they are trusting in their own faith alone, apart from doing His good works, to save them.

2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Ps 12:3-4
The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

And so, the faith they do have in God cannot save their own soul, because it is not the saving faith of Jesus, that is always doing those works pleasing to the Father.

James 2 is specifically against having any salvation without works. It rebukes anyone naming the name of Christ, and claiming to be saved by one's own faith apart from Christ's works.

Any faith one has in God, that is apart from His good works, is apart from His Christ.

Therefore, anyone preaching any gospel of having salvation only by faith alone, apart from doing Christ's good works, is preaching one's own gospel alone, and claiming to be saved by having their own faith in God, apart from the saving faith of Jesus.

Anyone on earth having faith without works, has dead faith. Anyone having faith in God without doing His good works, has faith of his own alone and dead to God.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The gift of God is the faith of Jesus to them that repent of sinning against God, to receive His Son and His saving faith always do the Father's good will.

Any faith in God apart from doing His works, is of oneself alone. It is not the gift of the God of Christ Jesus.

what's the quota? How many good works do I have to do to be saved?
How many good works can I not do and still be saved?
Are there specific ones that absolutely must be done?

To my knowledge no one, at least here is saying that faith will not be accompanied by works. Only that those works play no part in salvation. Except in it being a "work" to trust God for that Salvation.

 

[donadams]

Spirit baptism is not baptismal regeneration and in what sense would believers be water baptized "into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2)

There is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people.

Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

scripture never says baptism is symbolic or a public profession of the faith that had already saved us!

rather it is the initiation into the new covenant
not spirit alone but water and the spirit


Types and prefigures of baptism!


To bring home the point in a most forceful way the entire bible is soaked in the blessed waters of baptismal grace; water and the spirit!

(((Water and the spirit)))

Genesis:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Water & spirit

Noah:

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove (representing the spirit) from him…

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Water & spirit

Exodus:

Exodus 14:

21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind (spirit) all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Water & spirit
Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29

 

[donadams]

a

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says to go and make disciples and baptize them. Nothing there about baptismal regeneration.

In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regard to Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration is not accomplished by water baptism. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* (Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5), of the "washing of regeneration."

Washing refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the word of God through the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is the picture but is not the reality. The washing of regeneration is signified but not procured in water baptism. False religion turns symbols and shadows of our salvation into the substance and the source.

any reference to washing away sin is a reference to baptismal regeneration
acts 22:16

Church fathers

Sacred tradition commanded by Christ, go teach all men! Matt 28:19

Testimony of the early church in the successors of the apostles! Verified by acts 2:42

Acts 1:8 witnesses of Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit!

We must hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17

Baptism!

Didache (teaching of the apostles)
Acts 2:42

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. 70ad

“My Witnesses” (Acts 1:8)

“Fathers on baptism”

“It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

“Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

“Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified, If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent


“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

cont.

 

[donadams]

cont.

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).




Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Baptism is Necessary for salvation
Irenaeus (120?-200), “’And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” (Fragment, 34, A.D. 190).

Origen (185-254), “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” (Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9)

Tertullian (155-220), “When, however, the prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” (On Baptism, 12:1, A.D. 203).
Ambrose (340?-397), “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism . . . “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (On Abraham 2:11:79-84).WATER AND SPIRIT, NOT SPIRIT ONLY, NOT WATER ONLY.1 JOHN 5:8 shows the witnesses on earth SPIRIT, WATER AND BLOOD, you have none of them.

thks

 

[donadams]

These Gentiles were baptized AFTER they believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and also spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

baptism still a necessity of salvation

 

[donadams]

The eunuch was saved at this point when he made his profession of faith - "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:37) ..but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:31)

Water baptism followed believing unto salvation.

then baptism is meaningless!
why does scripture and the church teach it?

our holy religion, the christian faith is revealed by Christ rph 4:5 jude 1:3 and taught by the command of Christ by his apostolic church! matt 28:19
the Holy Spirit leads the church into all truth! Jn 16:13
and we must hear the church and obey. matt 18:17 and the one true church founded by Christ has always taught baptismal regeneration until the unauthorized and error of the "new reformation gospel"! "faith alone"!
even all faith without charity avails Nothing! 1 cor 13:2
three things are eternal and therefore inseparable and interconnected!
Faith, Hope, & Charity!
1 cor 13:13

 

[donadams]

what's the quota? How many good works do I have to do to be saved?
How many good works can I not do and still be saved?
Are there specific ones that absolutely must be done?

To my knowledge no one, at least here is saying that faith will not be accompanied by works. Only that those works play no part in salvation. Except in it being a "work" to trust God for that Salvation.

how much "faith alone" is required?

we are in Christ by grace thru faith and baptism!

we must abide in Christ Jn 15:4 and endure faithful to the end matt 24:13

we must bear fruit, increase grace by good works, prayer, fast, alms, suffering/ self-denial practice of the royal virtues of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn ofme; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[mailmandan]

why sad?
what was the result of Jn 3:5?
"faith alone" or baptism?
Jn 3-22-23

Baptism is not even mentioned in John 3:5. In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

22 ;After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

baptism! "water & the spirit"

thks

In regard to John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. Verse 22 is out of context with verse 5. What is still in context with verse 5 is verses 14-18.

 

[mailmandan]

then baptism is meaningless!

Why would it be meaningless? Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture. Is a wedding ring meaningless because it symbolizes wedding vows and is not the actual cause of one's marital status?

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

why does scripture and the church teach it?

our holy religion, the christian faith is revealed by Christ rph 4:5 jude 1:3 and taught by the command of Christ by his apostolic church! matt 28:19
the Holy Spirit leads the church into all truth! Jn 16:13
and we must hear the church and obey. matt 18:17 and the one true church founded by Christ has always taught baptismal regeneration until the unauthorized

The church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24) that is made up of all born again Christians and is not simply a church building with a name stamped on the front of it. Ephesians 4:5 - There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

*Also see John 4:10, 14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

and error of the "new reformation gospel"! "faith alone"!
even all faith without charity avails Nothing! 1 cor 13:2
three things are eternal and therefore inseparable and interconnected!
Faith, Hope, & Charity!
1 cor 13:13

Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith alone. Therefore, having been justified by faith, "apart from additions or modifications" we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity/works."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity which culminates in salvation by works. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without the merits of our best efforts to love.

All who are truly born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[donadams]

Why would it be meaningless? Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture. Is a wedding ring meaningless because it symbolizes wedding vows and is not the actual cause of one's marital status?

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

The church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24) that is made up of all born again Christians and is not simply a church building with a name stamped on the front of it. Ephesians 4:5 - There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

*Also see John 4:10, 14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith alone. Therefore, having been justified by faith, "apart from additions or modifications" we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity/works."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity which culminates in salvation by works. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without the merits of our best efforts to love.

All who are truly born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

baptism is not a symbol but the cos
baptism is the grace of justification

heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

baptism

no one ever died with Christ by "faith alone"!

no one ever has new life by "faith alone"!

do you think we were justified / saved when we first believed? thks

 

[Free]

please explain

You initially stated: "then we would be justified by both the belief in God's promise and the fulfillment." I then asked you to define what you meant by "justified." What is there to explain?

awareness is knowledge, does being aware of God mean we have eternal life?

I don't understand what your point is with this.

 

[donadams]

You initially stated: "then we would be justified by both the belief in God's promise and the fulfillment." I then asked you to define what you meant by "justified." What is there to explain?


I don't understand what your point is with this.

justified made right with God, in Christ in a state of grace

 

[Free]

justified made right with God, in Christ in a state of grace

Is that the only definition?

 

[JLB]

Is that the only definition?

Based on the Strong’s there seems to be three variations of the Greek word dikaioo.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In this passage below we see how the number 2 variation is used, when a person is wanting to justify themselves to another person.

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Luke 10:25-29

Here the young lawyer was wanting to justify himself, which corresponds to the number 2 variation.

• to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

 

[onlysaved]

how much "faith alone" is required?

we are in Christ by grace thru faith and baptism!

we must abide in Christ Jn 15:4 and endure faithful to the end matt 24:13

we must bear fruit, increase grace by good works, prayer, fast, alms, suffering/ self-denial practice of the royal virtues of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn ofme; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

It's not a matter of we must bear fruit, it's a simple fact that you will bear fruit. If you are in Christ you won't be able to avoid it.