James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[JLB]

1. King David was a murderer. Inherited eternal life.
2. Moses was a murderer.. Inherited eternal life

I guess context matters..

Again. The question is do works save us. The answer from the bible is emphatically no. Will good works and obedience be present is a person of genuine faith? Emphatically yes. They just do not play a role in salvation.

What do you believe the “fruit” is that Jesus expects from those who are “in” Him?

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2


The book of Hebrews teaches it this way speaking of people who are already saved.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:7-12


Things to consider.


And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14

 

[onlysaved]

What do you believe the “fruit” is that Jesus expects from those who are “in” Him?

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2


The book of Hebrews teaches it this way speaking of people who are already saved.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:7-12


Things to consider.


And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14

As you said they accompany salvation... I've been saying that the whole time. My and the bibles argument is that the works are not causal to salvstion.

Some people's works will be burned up when God tests them with fire.. they are still saved.

 

[JLB]

As you said they accompany salvation... I've been saying that the whole time. My and the bibles argument is that the works are not causal to salvstion.

Let’s discuss this further so we can come to a common understanding… hopefully.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

On this I believe we agree.

I’m going to ask you a question, because I would like to discuss further the concept of faith and salvation.

Do you have faith in Christ for salvation?

 

[onlysaved]

Let’s discuss this further so we can come to a common understanding… hopefully.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

On this I believe we agree.

I’m going to ask you a question, because I would like to discuss further the concept of faith and salvation.

Do you have faith in Christ for salvation?

I believe Jesus is the son of God died for our sins and I make a hash of trying to live as He asks us to live. I throw myself on His mercy daily.

The biggest revelation of my life is how bad of a person i am.. I know me and I know that God knows me. He loves me anyway but He knows me and I live my life in that shadow. Nothing makes me feel like a fraud and gives me more shame than for someone to see what I do and calls me a good man for it. I know it to be false.
When you understand the depth of your own depravity... then can you see how little human effort is worth to God.

 

[donadams]

Then this is salvation by works and Paul says to consider you as one who is accursed.


They are the evidence of faith.


Exactly. No works is evidence of not having faith, of not being justified.


But this is begging the question. How do we "get into Christ" in the first place? Not. By. Works. Here is your problem:

Paul says "by grace you have been saved through faith . . . it is the gift of God, not the result of works" (Eph. 2:8-9, ESV). You say that "it is the works that give life to faith." But, if works "give life to faith," then in order to have faith, we have to do works. That means Paul is wrong and it actually is works that gives us the faith to be saved.

James is only talking about works being the evidence of already having been justified, of already having been saved. That is one of the meanings previously looked at. Paul is using another meaning, that of being declared righteous by God, which is the initial moment of salvation.


Straw man. Stop listening to the Catholic Church, read what the Reformers actually taught, and read the Bible. "Faith alone" is almost universally used as short for being justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That is exactly what Paul teaches throughout his writings, including Eph. 2:8-9.

There may be some very fringe preachers who distort Scripture to say that we only ever need faith and never need to do good works, and that is what they mean by "faith alone," but that is absolutely not what is generally meant by "faith alone." It is "faith alone" as opposed to "faith plus works" or "works alone" in regards to justification, to that initial point of salvation.

not salvation by works

dead works
natural works
good works apart from Christ and grace are of no avail!

faith & works in Christ by grace!

(((1 cor 13:13 three things are eternal)))

Three things are eternal, faith, hope, & charity and these have an interconnected unity!

(((1 cor 13:7 charity believes all things)))

(((1 cor 13:8 charity NEVER fails)))

Ephe 6:24
Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.


2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1 Timothy 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

thks

 

[donadams]

1. King David was a murderer. Inherited eternal life.
2. Moses was a murderer.. Inherited eternal life

I guess context matters..

Again. The question is do works save us. The answer from the bible is emphatically no. Will good works and obedience be present is a person of genuine faith? Emphatically yes. They just do not play a role in salvation.

not salvation by works

dead works
natural works
good works apart from Christ and grace are of no avail!

faith & works in Christ by grace!

(((1 cor 13:13 three things are eternal)))

Three things are eternal, faith, hope, & charity and these have an interconnected unity!

(((1 cor 13:7 charity believes all things)))

(((1 cor 13:8 charity NEVER fails)))

Ephe 6:24
Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.


2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1 Timothy 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

thks

 

[donadams]

requirements to receive grace, mercy, and the rewards of God!

(faith)
heb 11:6

(grace)
acts 18:27
rom 4:16
rom 5:2
rom 5:21
rom 12:6
2 cor 8:7
2 cor 9:14
Ephe 6:24
1 tim 1:4
Janes 4:6
1 pet 5:5



(mercy / forgiveness)
matt 5:7
Lk 7:47
1 pet 4:8
Jude 1:21

(rewards)
matt 6:1-6
matt 6:12-14
matt 6:18
matt 6:33

(Eternal life)
matt 19:16
matt 19:29
matt 25:46
mk 10:17
mk 10:29-30
Lk 10:25
Lk 18:18
Jn 3:15-16
Jn 4:36
Jn 6:27-40
Jn 10:28
Jn 12:25
Jn 17:3
acts 13:48
rom 2:7
Rom 5:21
rom 6:23
1 tim 6:12
titus 1:2
titus 3:7
1 Jn 2:25
1 Jn 5:13
1 Jn 5:20
Jude 1:21

(perseverance)
acts 13:43


Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

matt 5:44-45

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

John 4:36
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Salvation not earned God already provides abundant grace!

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

 

[donadams]

The supernatural virture has of Charity or love of God!

who says the commandments & worship are part of salvation?

deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[onlysaved]

The supernatural virture has of Charity or love of God!

who says the commandments & worship are part of salvation?

deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

You're twisting those verses to make them say what you want...

 

[donadams]

You're twisting those verses to make them say what you want...

scripture is protestant
twisted scripture is catholic

context is protestant
out of context is catholic

exegesis is protestant
isegesis is catholic

and all other methods to ignore scripture for the sake of our pet doctrine

thks

 

[JLB]

I believe Jesus is the son of God died for our sins and I make a hash of trying to live as He asks us to live. I throw myself on His mercy daily.

Beautiful.

 

[JLB]

then can you see how little human effort is worth to God.

Not human effort.

Jesus Christ living His life through you by the Spirit.

This is the life that is fruitful.

This is the life that is pleasing to Him.

 

[Free]

not salvation by works

dead works
natural works
good works apart from Christ and grace are of no avail!

faith & works in Christ by grace!

(((1 cor 13:13 three things are eternal)))

Three things are eternal, faith, hope, & charity and these have an interconnected unity!

(((1 cor 13:7 charity believes all things)))

(((1 cor 13:8 charity NEVER fails)))

Ephe 6:24
Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.


2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1 Timothy 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

thks

No, no works at all can save. Period. That is the message of the NT.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

So, you still have this problem in your position:

Paul says "by grace you have been saved through faith . . . it is the gift of God, not the result of works" (Eph. 2:8-9, ESV). You say that "it is the works that give life to faith." But, if works "give life to faith," then in order to have faith, we have to do works. That means Paul is wrong and it actually is works that gives us the faith to be saved.

 

[onlysaved]

Not human effort.

Jesus Christ living His life through you by the Spirit.

This is the life that is fruitful.

This is the life that is pleasing to Him.

I agree. Which is not the same as works.

 

[JLB]

That is the message of the NT.

The message in my New Testament teaches that after we are in Christ, He expects us to be fruitful. He gives us time to mature and grow, however He expects us to be fruitful.

The fruit the Lord expects us to produce is love.

Love expresses itself by action or works.

This is how the Spirit leads us from within.

He inspires and leads us to do works of love.

For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:5-6 CJB

Not our righteousness but His righteousness being expressed from within by acts of love.

• what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love

It always come back to being led by the Spirit.


At the end of the day, if we who are in Christ, are not producing fruit because we choose live according to the flesh, then we very well may be removed from Christ.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2


Paul plainly makes it clear -

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men… And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:8,14

It about love; faith expressing itself in love.





JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree. Which is not the same as works.

How so?

If Jesus is living His life through you by His Spirit, why would He not love and help people today?

 

[onlysaved]

How so?

If Jesus is living His life through you by His Spirit, why would He not love and help people today?

Works in the biblical context both old and new Testaments are things done to try to win God's approval.

 

[JLB]

Works in the biblical context both old and new Testaments are things done to try to win God's approval.

So you believe Jesus leads people to work to win His approval?

The desire of God is to love humanity and help them.
His Spirit lives in us to be conduits through which He can love a lost and desperate world.

 

[Free]

The message in my New Testament teaches that after we are in Christ, He expects us to be fruitful. He gives us time to mature and grow, however He expects us to be fruitful.

The fruit the Lord expects us to produce is love.

Love expresses itself by action or works.

This is how the Spirit leads us from within.

He inspires and leads us to do works of love.

For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:5-6 CJB

Not our righteousness but His righteousness being expressed from within by acts of love.

• what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love

It always come back to being led by the Spirit.


At the end of the day, if we who are in Christ, are not producing fruit because we choose live according to the flesh, then we very well may be removed from Christ.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2


Paul plainly makes it clear -

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men… And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:8,14

It about love; faith expressing itself in love.

How is this relevant to the discussion of justification by works, which is what I'm clearly talking about?

 

[onlysaved]

So you believe Jesus leads people to work to win His approval?

The desire of God is to love humanity and help them.
His Spirit lives in us to be conduits through which He can love a lost and desperate world.

The desire of God is to have a relationship with people and save them from Hell. Not to make their lives better here on earth though that is a byproduct of His work.

I believe that any time you are saying something other than we are saved by grace through faith you are adding works and the Bible is clear that the ONLY works that God accepts for salvation is the perfect keeping of the Mosaic law. As of yet only one human has done that, that being Jesus.

It is by grace through faith or the perfect keeping of the law.

We cannot make up a new law saying to be saved you need to get baptized and do good works. That's just biblically not a thing.