Jesus Christ THE FIRST and THE LAST

[Runningman]

Knowing? More like asserting.
If you belittle Jesus, then how can you consistently believe that He did what He did to save us?
You are like the Pharisees in your Jesus-denial!

Testifying of what the bible says about Jesus isn't belittling Jesus. No idea what you're talking about at this point.

Luke 14:27
How are you going to frame this verse so that HUMANS have disciples?? Lol!

Are you saying humans can't have disciples?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Are you going to be "in a HUMAN"????
Believing that Jesus is nothing but a human is absurd, illogical, and tramples on the rest of the New Testament.

This isn't about being in a human. This is about being in the Christ anointing.

Jesus is God. Accept it, or else your understanding of the Bible will make no sense.

Not according to scripture. Accept it.

Acts 3:6
"In the name of a mere human whos not God, walk!!"

According to Acts 4, that is exactly what the Father does.

30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”

HAAHAHAHHA - YOUR REJECTION OF JESUS IS CRAZY.

How is saying what the Bible says a crazy reaction to Jesus?

I have a tip for you, instead of reading "Son of God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" or any Name or Title referring to the Messiah, say/think "human who is only human and not God".

No thank you. I am just going to stick with what the Bible says.

If you cannot see the illogic, oh well. Your choice to maintain your blindness.

Prove it.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Testifying of what the bible says about Jesus isn't belittling Jesus.

The Bible confirms Jesus' Divinity, not only His humanity on earth. No idea what you're talking about at this point.

Are you saying humans can't have disciples?

Not Biblical disciples.

This isn't about being in a human. This is about being in the Christ anointing.

How does one be "in" a HUMAN BEING anointing???? Jesus is just a wee little human in your view instead of OMNIPOTENT CREATOR YHWH WHO TOOK ON FLESH TO DIE FOR US, AND THEN DEFEAT DEATH.

Not according to scripture. Accept it.

Reread what you replied to.

According to Acts 4, that is exactly what the Father does.

This doesn't answer my critique of your Reduced Jesus view.

30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”

So? God can do things through Himself.

How is saying what the Bible says a crazy reaction to Jesus?

The Bible never denys Jesus, but you do.

No thank you. I am just going to stick with what the Bible says.

You fail to do that every time you pull a Peter.

Prove it.

The whole debate speaks for itself.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Runningman
Do you believe that Jesus didn't resurrect?

How does a finite human pay for infinite penalty??

That is nonsense, the only logical view is JESUS IS GOD.
Infinite God paid the price for us.


Apparently you believe that our salvation came through man and God's part was a background role. What Rubbish.

Reality: God gave us our salvation. A weak ""100% human, but 0% God"" did not.

I'm glad I'm a CHRISTIAN, and not a HUMANIAN like you.

 

[follower]

This is the strongest evidence from the words of Jesus Christ Himself, that He is YHWH.

This is not enough at all.

Is there any evidence better ?

 

[SolaScriptura]

This is not enough at all.

Is there any evidence better ?

Search the Bible

 

[follower]

From Random searching over the decades. (a lot more is out there)

What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
-----------------
5,849 Bible results for “Yahweh”5,849 Bible results for “Yahweh”
---------------
1,503 Bible results for “Yeshua”

 

[SolaScriptura]

From Random searching over the decades. (a lot more is out there)

What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
What about Elohim (אְֶלֹהִים), the well-known Hebrew word for “God” or “god”? Whereas Yahweh occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim occurs about 2,602 times. Hence the primary term for God in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) is not “God” but “Yahweh”.

Moreover, around 10% of the 2,602 instances of the term Elohim refer to false gods such as the gods of Egypt (Ex.12:12), the golden calf (Ex.32:4), and the goddess Ashtoreth (1Ki.11:33). In rare instances, Elohim is used of human beings, e.g., Moses (Ex.4:16; 7:1), unjust judges (Ps.82:6), and possibly Samuel’s spirit (1Sam.28:13). The remaining 90% of the occurrences of “Elohim” refer to the God of Israel. The combination “Yahweh Elohim” (“Lord God” in most Bibles) occurs 891 times.
-----------------
5,849 Bible results for “Yahweh”5,849 Bible results for “Yahweh”
---------------
1,503 Bible results for “Yeshua”

˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

The very first verse in the Holy Bible reads, “In the beginning ˒ĕlōhı̂m Created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1) “˒ĕlōhı̂m” is not a Name of God, but more a description or identity of the Supreme Divine Being in the Old Testament. “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is masculine in gender, and plural in...

christianforums.net

 

[Runningman]

Runningman
Do you believe that Jesus didn't resurrect?

God resurrected Jesus.

How does a finite human pay for infinite penalty??

Please explain the "infinite penalty" you are referring to.

That is nonsense, the only logical view is JESUS IS GOD.

Verse?

Infinite God paid the price for us.

Not according to scripture.

Apparently you believe that our salvation came through man and God's part was a background role. What Rubbish.

That isn't what I said. Why do you keep propping up straw man arguments?

Reality: God gave us our salvation. A weak ""100% human, but 0% God"" did not.

So Jesus played no role in our salvation? Are you a Christian?

I'm glad I'm a CHRISTIAN, and not a HUMANIAN like you.

I'm a Christian. You're a Trinitarian.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible confirms Jesus' Divinity,

Verse?

Not Biblical disciples.

Seems you haven't actually read much of Jesus' teachings.

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

How does one be "in" a HUMAN BEING anointing???? Jesus is just a wee little human in your view instead of OMNIPOTENT CREATOR YHWH WHO TOOK ON FLESH TO DIE FOR US, AND THEN DEFEAT DEATH.

What? I said the word "christ" means an anointing.

So? God can do things through Himself.

That isn't what it says is it?

The Bible never denys Jesus, but you do.

When did I deny Jesus?

You fail to do that every time you pull a Peter.

Nope.

The whole debate speaks for itself.

It's not much of a debate.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Please explain the "infinite penalty" you are referring to.

Humans sufferring in the lake of fire forever.
If Jesus is just another average joe, why would He NOT be burning forever in fire??
The only logical conclusion is Jesus IS God, otherwise you have to do immense mental gymnastics. Jesus=God is just so simple and not confusing.
God isn't the Author of confusion. But your belittling Jesus multiplies confusion. The consensus in Christianity is JESUS IS LORD.

Are the Father and God seperate?? NO.
Are the Son and God seperate?? NO.
Are the Father and Son seperate? They are TWO DIFFERENT PERSONS - BUT STILL GOD!!
We will learn more on the Trinity in Heaven, i'm sure.

Verse?

You already got a bunch of them. And you just handwaved them way by arbitrarily detaching JESUS from His Divinity.

Not according to scripture.

YES according to Scripture.
The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14). Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

That isn't what I said. Why do you keep propping up straw man arguments?

To: "Apparently you believe that our salvation came through man and God's part was a background role. What Rubbish."

Well you belittle Jesus into a man. Who died on the cross, according to your damaged worldview? A HUMAN WITHOUT ANY DIVINE ELEMENT. So the "not-God human" saves us, and what part does God play? You can't say because your starting point is "Jesus not God'.

So Jesus played no role in our salvation? Are you a Christian?

Your assumption that Jesus isNT God hinders you for the nth time. Jesus saved us BECAUSE HE WAS GOD.
Why do you think ONLY JESUS was the Son of God - and NOBODY ELSE?? BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD. FIGURE it out - WITHOUT Islamic Bias. (Jesus-belittling)

I'm a Christian. You're a Trinitarian.

I'm a Christian. You are a Unitarian.
Oh, and by your logic, you are a HUMANIAN because you try to make Jesus into ONLY a human!!
And your view of Jesus is more Islamic than Christian.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Seems you haven't actually read much of Jesus' teachings.

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Can't be a Biblical disciple of Jesus if Jesus isn't God.
"Hey, we're the Disciples of the Not-God Jesus!!" <-- Now you see the implications of your belittling.

I said the word "christ" means an anointing.

"Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning " anointed one" or "chosen one.".
I wouldn't say "AN anointING", but "anointED one".
Also, "This isn't about being in a human. This is about being in the Christ anointing."
Your damaged worldview DEFINITELY IMPLIES that we can be "in a human". This makes no sense - we can only be in Jesus IF HE IS FULLY GOD!!
Again, some people believe that Jesus, one of the Persons in the Trinity, still is 100% GOD as well as having a 100% human nature.

"..about being in the an anointing anointing." <---- Hmmmm.

That isn't what it says is it?

What, you can't do things through yourself? If a human can do things through themselves then surely God can do it in a very different way and much more effectively than we can.
You have yet to explain HOW that verse seperates Jesus from God.

When did I deny Jesus?

Your name fits you so well. You are running from Jesus' Divinity like Jonah running from God. Just accept the fact and cut all your mental gymnastics, backwards-bending, and compromise with the Muslim's religion.

Nope

No elaboration provided. "Nope-and-run" tactics, proudly presented to you by RunningAwayFromJesus Man.

It's not much of a debate.

It's easy to expose your belittlement of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Can't be a Biblical disciple of Jesus if Jesus isn't God.
"Hey, we're the Disciples of the Not-God Jesus!!" <-- Now you see the implications of your belittling.

Then which disciples of Jesus believed Jesus is God? No one has found it yet. Will be interested to see your answer since you're claiming otherwise.

"Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning " anointed one" or "chosen one.".
I wouldn't say "AN anointING", but "anointED one".

Don't anointed ones having an anointing? Anointing is just a noun and anointed is an adjective. It's grammatically correct to speak the way I was. I don't think you need to split hairs over grammar here.

Also, "This isn't about being in a human. This is about being in the Christ anointing."
Your damaged worldview DEFINITELY IMPLIES that we can be "in a human". This makes no sense - we can only be in Jesus IF HE IS FULLY GOD!!

Being "in Christ" doesn't refer to being in a human. Being in a human isn't a Christian teaching.

Again, some people believe that Jesus, one of the Persons in the Trinity, still is 100% GOD as well as having a 100% human nature.

No one in the Bible believed it is my point.

What, you can't do things through yourself? If a human can do things through themselves then surely God can do it in a very different way and much more effectively than we can.
You have yet to explain HOW that verse seperates Jesus from God.

Jesus didn't do things through himself either according to scripture. All of his power came from God who made him the lord and christ and and anointed him with power. Acts 2:36, Acts 10: 37,38

Your name fits you so well. You are running from Jesus' Divinity like Jonah running from God. Just accept the fact and cut all your mental gymnastics, backwards-bending, and compromise with the Muslim's religion.

That's your imagination speaking. I will not run anywhere. That isn't what my name means.

No elaboration provided. "Nope-and-run" tactics, proudly presented to you by RunningAwayFromJesus Man.

Yet I am still here.

It's easy to expose your belittlement of Jesus.

No it isn't because I am not doing that. I love Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Humans sufferring in the lake of fire forever.
If Jesus is just another average joe, why would He NOT be burning forever in fire??
The only logical conclusion is Jesus IS God, otherwise you have to do immense mental gymnastics. Jesus=God is just so simple and not confusing.
God isn't the Author of confusion. But your belittling Jesus multiplies confusion. The consensus in Christianity is JESUS IS LORD.

Eternal conscious torment isn't a Biblical doctrine. Your "infinite penalty" isn't found in scripture. The only people who are immortal are those who have been given the gift of eternal life for their obedience to the gospel.

Are the Father and God seperate?? NO.
Are the Son and God seperate?? NO.
Are the Father and Son seperate? They are TWO DIFFERENT PERSONS - BUT STILL GOD!!
We will learn more on the Trinity in Heaven, i'm sure.

According to scripture the Father is the only true God. I don't claim to know it all, but you won't be taught much at all about the trinity in heaven. I guess you will be told it's wrong and given a chance to change your mind. I don't really know for sure how God handles the judgement, but there isn't anyone who ever lived who is perfect in their understanding of everything. God is merciful and fair.

You already got a bunch of them. And you just handwaved them way by arbitrarily detaching JESUS from His Divinity.

You haven't provided a verse that says what you believe yet.

YES according to Scripture.
The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14).

Then why is the "Word" not a person in 99% of the Bible? I believe John 1:1-14 is the "word" being personified. For starters, apostle John wasn't a believer in Jesus being God. He and Peter both confirmed this in their prayer in Acts 4:23-27.

Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

Begin with Philippians 2:5 where Paul was telling them to have the same mind as Jesus. Paul wasn't telling them to believe they are God because that isn't what Jesus believed. The suggest that God needed to consider equality with Himself is nonsense. Jesus denied being equal with God anyway in John 14:28.

Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

and then Ephesians 3:19 says that other people can also be filled with the fullness of God. Colossians 2:9 isn't a reference to deity.

Well you belittle Jesus into a man. Who died on the cross, according to your damaged worldview? A HUMAN WITHOUT ANY DIVINE ELEMENT. So the "not-God human" saves us, and what part does God play? You can't say because your starting point is "Jesus not God'.

The bible calls Jesus a man, with one example being John 1:30 but the Bible never calls men God. God being a man is called idolatry.

Your assumption that Jesus isNT God hinders you for the nth time. Jesus saved us BECAUSE HE WAS GOD.
Why do you think ONLY JESUS was the Son of God - and NOBODY ELSE?? BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD. FIGURE it out - WITHOUT Islamic Bias. (Jesus-belittling)

I haven't assumed anything I am just going with what the Bible says.

I'm a Christian. You are a Unitarian.

Let's see. Did you know the the Father is the only one Jesus prescribed worship, prayer and fasting to? Do you believe Jesus' teachings on this matter?

Oh, and by your logic, you are a HUMANIAN because you try to make Jesus into ONLY a human!!
And your view of Jesus is more Islamic than Christian.

You're conflating Christianity with Trinitarianism. Jesus never teached anything about a trinity God nor did anyone else in the Bible. It's just stated in your creeds and commentaries. Islam is also false and incompatible with Christianity, but as far as their belief in Jesus being a man and prophet of God they are correct.

John 17:1-3 says that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is the one God sent. That's Unitarianism. God, Jesus, and all of the disciples are Unitarians.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Then which disciples of Jesus believed Jesus is God? No one has found it yet. Will be interested to see your answer since you're claiming otherwise.

Literally 100% of them. I'd like to see their reactions to your belittlement of their King and Savior.

Being "in Christ" doesn't refer to being in a human. Being in a human isn't a Christian teaching.

YOU ARE CONFIRMING MY POINT!
Your view: Jesus = 100% human 0% God.
In Christ = in a human.
Therefore, you can't call truly yourself a Christian if you belittle Jesus.
Being in Christ, Who is 100% GOD IS a Christian teaching.

You have accidentally admitted Jesus IS God here. You will likely backtrack and deny. Don't try, it's a waste of both our times.

No one in the Bible believed it is my point.

The Bible doesn't provide a detailed account of what they believed, does it? And they didn't have all 66 Books of the Bible.

Jesus didn't do things through himself either according to scripture. All of his power came from God who made him the lord and christ and and anointed him with power.

Acts 10: 37,38
The Father helping the Son. Still don't see how this islamizes the King of the Universe.
Acts 2:36? Interpret Scripture with Scripture. God can exalt Himself anytime He wants.

That's your imagination speaking. I will not run anywhere. That isn't what my name means.

Observation, you mean.

Yet I am still here.

You are running from Jesus' Divinity. I didn't say you were running from the forums.

No it isn't because I am not doing that. I love Jesus.

Then why do you try to convince others of Him being less than He really is?
May as well say "God's not God" while youre at it.
Is Jesus alive today, in your view? He is in mine, and in reality.
Do you think Jesus is omnipotent? I know He is, but do you?

In the Beginning the WORD (Jesus) was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
Idk how youll get past that one. Mabye youll RUN!

Eternal conscious torment isn't a Biblical doctrine. Your "infinite penalty" isn't found in scripture. The only people who are immortal are those who have been given the gift of eternal life for their obedience to the gospel.

Not true.
Do you really believe sinners will just poof?? How is that just?
Will God show satan a bunch of mercy by just poofing him instead of casting him into the lake of fire, in your view?
So you backpedal. You run from more Bible truth. Compromise in one area, compromise in others. I shouldn't be surprised.
Why did Jesus die, if there is no infinite penalty??

"11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." - Revelation 14:11-20

So much for "Eternal conscious torment isnt Biblical!!"
I'm also curious how you will run from this excerpt.

According to scripture the Father is the only true God.

OK now you seem to be strawmanning the Trinity. THREE PERSONS in ONE God. NOT 'three gods'.

You haven't provided a verse that says what you believe yet.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
Try running from God's Word Who is God. Jesus: 100% GOD has a 100% HUMAN NATURE aswell.

Then why is the "Word" not a person in 99% of the Bible?

Verses?? He IS a Person. God is PERSONAL. God is HIS WORD (Jesus). Therefore, THE WORD JESUS IS A PERSON.
You are thinking of God's Word the Bible, i'd say. The Bible is probably not a Person - but its still God's Word. His WRITTEN Word.

I believe John 1:1-14 is the "word" being personified.

Where's the backup?
What then is the Word if not the Son of God?? How can God be BOTH personal AND impersonal at once? Illogical. "Jesus not God" is inherently illogical because it's false. EVEN A SMALL CHILD ACCEPTS JESUS' DIVINITY WHEN HE READS ON HIS OWN. It is a LEARNED behavior to belittle Jesus.

For starters, apostle John wasn't a believer in Jesus being God.

He and Peter both confirmed this in their prayer in Acts 4:23-27.

How can the nations of the world stand against.... A HUMAN?? Why would they target Jesus if Jesus wasn't God and not some other Godly human?? When ppl sin, they sin against GOD. Humans dont dictate morality, GOD does. Jesus is One Person in the Triune God therefore He can dictate morality.

John 14:28

Impressive. But too bad it's not as BELITTLING as you thought it was. Here's why:

The Father is greater than the Son in position, especially in regard to the incarnation. Yet the Father is not greater than the Son in essence or being; They are both equally God.

i. It is remarkable that Jesus should even say this. “That it should require to be explicitly affirmed, as here, is strongest evidence that He was Divine.” (Dods)

How can Jesus be God's Son and yet NOT be God?? If being the Son, UPPERCASE S, and SINGULAR, *AND* be referred to as God's Word, doesn't tell you "Jesus is God", then what will????
No other "sons of God" have the Divine qualifications that ONLY JESUS HAS. Stop running. Turn to Jesus.

The suggest that God needed to consider equality with Himself is nonsense.

So Phillippians is nonsense?!! Wow....

The bible calls Jesus a man, with one example being John 1:30 but the Bible never calls men God.

Not exclusively a man. The Bible also calls Him the "I AM". "Before Abraham was born I AM".

God being a man is called idolatry.

God is omnipotent. Nothing idolatrous about that.
Also, islam moment.

John 1:3

Again, you act like this is some sort of excluder. A man. But we have NO INDICATIONS that that's ALL Jesus is.

God took on a human body to save us. Is that so hard to believe?

Jesus saved us BECAUSE HE WAS GOD.
Why do you think ONLY JESUS was the Son of God - and NOBODY ELSE?? BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD. FIGURE it out - WITHOUT Islamic Bias. (Jesus-belittling)

What about the other parts of my post?

Let's see. Did you know the the Father is the only one Jesus prescribed worship, prayer and fasting to? Do you believe Jesus' teachings on this matter?

No verses given.

You're conflating Christianity with Trinitarianism.

What definition of Trinitarianism are you going by?
Three Persons, ONE GOD - no idolatry ANYWHERE in sight.

 

[Runningman]

Literally 100% of them. I'd like to see their reactions to your belittlement of their King and Savior.

Then please quote the verse or passage that proves your assertion. I say none of them believed Jesus is God.

YOU ARE CONFIRMING MY POINT!
Your view: Jesus = 100% human 0% God.
In Christ = in a human.
Therefore, you can't call truly yourself a Christian if you belittle Jesus.
Being in Christ, Who is 100% GOD IS a Christian teaching.

Christ isn't Jesus' name. Did you know that? It refers to the anointing he had. So when the Bible says "in Christ" it isn't referring to being in a human. It's referring to being in something spiritually.

You have accidentally admitted Jesus IS God here. You will likely backtrack and deny. Don't try, it's a waste of both our times.

Please explain how you believe I did that.

The Bible doesn't provide a detailed account of what they believed, does it? And they didn't have all 66 Books of the Bible.

So sola scriptura isn't useful for you?

Acts 10: 37,38
The Father helping the Son. Still don't see how this islamizes the King of the Universe.
Acts 2:36? Interpret Scripture with Scripture. God can exalt Himself anytime He wants.

Acts 10:37,38 prove that Jesus wasn't anointed with the holy spirit and power until his water baptism of repentance and that the works he did were not of his own power, but because God was with him.

Acts 2:36 proves that Jesus was not the Lord and Christ until God made him such. There was a point in which God had to make God the Lord and Christ? Then Jesus isn't God.

You are running from Jesus' Divinity. I didn't say you were running from the forums.

Actually, I would believe Jesus was God if he would just say so. He denied it many times. You are running from the truth, but it's chasing you now.

Then why do you try to convince others of Him being less than He really is?
May as well say "God's not God" while youre at it.
Is Jesus alive today, in your view? He is in mine, and in reality.
Do you think Jesus is omnipotent? I know He is, but do you?

I am just showing you what the Bible says. It's your choice to believe it or not. So do you believe a human is God?

In the Beginning the WORD (Jesus) was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
Idk how youll get past that one. Mabye youll RUN!

1 John 1:1-3 says in the beginning the Word of Life was an it that manifested in a man. What's your work around for John 1:1 saying the word was God and that 1 John 1:1-3 saying the word is not God?

Not true.
Do you really believe sinners will just poof?? How is that just?
Will God show satan a bunch of mercy by just poofing him instead of casting him into the lake of fire, in your view?
So you backpedal. You run from more Bible truth. Compromise in one area, compromise in others. I shouldn't be surprised.
Why did Jesus die, if there is no infinite penalty??

So those who disobey the gospel also get eternal life? That isn't scriptural. I suggest you read John 3:16. Only those who believe in God's begotten Son will have eternal life. All others perish. Do you believe that?

"11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." - Revelation 14:11-20

Doesn't say anything about eternal torment. It only mentions the smoke rising forever. Nice try.

OK now you seem to be strawmanning the Trinity. THREE PERSONS in ONE God. NOT 'three gods'.

Three persons who are each called God are three Gods, but let's get a baseline on what you believe exactly. Do you adhere to the trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
Try running from God's Word Who is God. Jesus: 100% GOD has a 100% HUMAN NATURE aswell.

Not according to scripture. I would like to discuss the Greek of this passage with you. There are two uses of the word for god in this verse. The first usage is "Ton Theon" which means The God (the definitive God) and theos which means a god. God was with God isn't a biblical concept. The idea being conveyed is that God was either with a lesser god or God was with something godly (God's words are godly.)

Verses?? He IS a Person. God is PERSONAL. God is HIS WORD (Jesus). Therefore, THE WORD JESUS IS A PERSON.
You are thinking of God's Word the Bible, i'd say. The Bible is probably not a Person - but its still God's Word. His WRITTEN Word.

Yes you need verses to assert your claims in a Bible discussion.

Where's the backup?
What then is the Word if not the Son of God?? How can God be BOTH personal AND impersonal at once? Illogical. "Jesus not God" is inherently illogical because it's false. EVEN A SMALL CHILD ACCEPTS JESUS' DIVINITY WHEN HE READS ON HIS OWN. It is a LEARNED behavior to belittle Jesus.

Children default to not believing humans are God because it doesn't make sense. It requires indoctrination and capitalizing on their trust and innocence to get them to believe otherwise.

How can the nations of the world stand against.... A HUMAN?? Why would they target Jesus if Jesus wasn't God and not some other Godly human?? When ppl sin, they sin against GOD. Humans dont dictate morality, GOD does. Jesus is One Person in the Triune God therefore He can dictate morality.

What are you referring to about the nations of the world standing against Jesus?

The Father is greater than the Son in position, especially in regard to the incarnation. Yet the Father is not greater than the Son in essence or being; They are both equally God.

i. It is remarkable that Jesus should even say this. “That it should require to be explicitly affirmed, as here, is strongest evidence that He was Divine.” (Dods)

You're asking good questions now. So the Father is greater than Jesus in any way? Then they aren't equal. What, God isn't equal with God? Sorry, but that's nonsense. I think you are getting on the right track now.

How can Jesus be God's Son and yet NOT be God?? If being the Son, UPPERCASE S, and SINGULAR, *AND* be referred to as God's Word, doesn't tell you "Jesus is God", then what will????
No other "sons of God" have the Divine qualifications that ONLY JESUS HAS. Stop running. Turn to Jesus.

The terms "God's son" and "son of God" are used with frequency throughout the Bible to refer to Jesus, other people, and angels who are not themselves God. I think you are looking at who God is the wrong way. God is a person. No one becomes their father regardless of how much they have in common. Does that make sense?

So Phillippians is nonsense?!! Wow....

No Philippians 2 is fine, it just doesn't make sense the way you presented it.

Not exclusively a man. The Bible also calls Him the "I AM". "Before Abraham was born I AM".

According to Acts 3:13, Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Cross reference that with Exodus 3:14,15 where the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM. Therefore, Jesus is not the I AM. We can go into all of this. You will be wishing I would actually run soon. lol

God is omnipotent. Nothing idolatrous about that.

Did you know Jesus isn't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent?

God took on a human body to save us. Is that so hard to believe?

It can be believed, you're evidence of that, but I am only interested in the truth.

What definition of Trinitarianism are you going by?
Three Persons, ONE GOD - no idolatry ANYWHERE in sight.

According to the Bible there is only one God known as YHWH, the Father. That isn't Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

God resurrected Jesus.


Please explain the "infinite penalty" you are referring to.


Verse?


Not according to scripture.


That isn't what I said. Why do you keep propping up straw man arguments?


So Jesus played no role in our salvation? Are you a Christian?


I'm a Christian. You're a Trinitarian.

Hi RM
A Trinitarian is Christian.
Plus, that statement comes really close to breaking TOS. Respect all ideas.

Also I forgot to reply to your post.
I'll look for it now.

 

[Runningman]

Hi RM
A Trinitarian is Christian.
Plus, that statement comes really close to breaking TOS. Respect all ideas.

I believe I am the Christian, but sure I won't respond in kind when people say I am not a Christian. I haven't seen anyone call them out yet, but thank you.

Also I forgot to reply to your post.
I'll look for it now.

Yes please answer at your convenience. No rush.

 

[Free]

Consider it done.

Where? Please provide a link.

In 1 John 1:1-3 the Word of Life is referred to as an it that manifested life in a human named Jesus. Jesus, in turn, revealed the life he was given by God to his disciples. In this way, since Jesus is not a he and an it then it follows John 1:3 is personification of God's word.

First, I’ve thoroughly addressed the fallacy of your argument to “it,” which you have yet to address. Second, there is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the Word in John 1:1-14 is in any way a personification. This is all the more clear with what John recorded in Revelation:

Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (ESV)

Notice what his name is. Not only that, but two verses later we see what else he is called:

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)

Of course, we already know that:

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” (ESV)

Yet, we see in 1 Tim that God is called the King of kings and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (ESV)
That fully supports the idea that the Word is true deity, truly God in nature (John 1:1c), and has always existed (John 1:1a, 2) in a loving, interpersonal relationship with God (John 1:1b, 2). That means the Word, the eternally preexistent Son, is a “person.”

Otherwise, we have to tangle with contradictions like the Father being the exclusive Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 and confirmed by Acts 17:24. For this reason, the best way to understand literal words being called a "he" is by personification. There is personification of non-person things all over the Bible... hence why the Word (logos) is not a person in 99% of the New Testament. I hope that helps.

But that is to ignore much context, some of which I gave above. Jesus is also the King of kings and Lord of lords. There is no reason to believe the Word is a personification and every reason to believe the Word is a person, the eternally pre-incarnate Son.

That would be a false dichotomy. There can be a specific context someone is speaking to, such as Paul in this case. Let's use a real life example. If I walked into a business and asked to speak to the manager, they wouldn't go down the street and find the manager of a different business and bring them to me to speak to.

When Paul is speaking to the church, saying there is "One God the Father" and "One Lord Jesus" he isn't saying there are not other lords and gods, but as far as the church is concerned there is one God known as the Father and the one God made Lord of the church is Jesus.

You’re actually not addressing the logic. Please address the logic and show precisely where the supposed false dichotomy is. Your claiming it is a false dichotomy does not make it so. How is your manager analogy relevant?

This should be clear from the previous verse. Therein lies the issue with proof texting.

1 Corinthians 8
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords),

Nothing here has to do with the logic of verse 6. But, it does seem that you have overlooked the use of “so-called.” Paul actually is saying there are no other true gods and lords.

All of Jesus' doctrines, teachings, words, etc. came from God the Father. The Father has the words of eternal life which Jesus received and gave to people who later became the church. God didn't come down and speak directly to the people who became the Jesus' disciples. Jesus is thusly the intermediary .

John 12
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”

You’re begging the question again by beginning with the assumption that God is only the Father.

Once again, it speaks to the specific context of the church. See the above example about the manager in a business. If I walked into a business and said "create me everything" and they specialize in donuts I would get one of every donut.

No. That is certainly a false analogy. It is clear from the context of Col 1:16-17, just as it is with John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6, that all things means everything thy at has ever been created. Notice both material and spiritual things are mentioned. Paul is showing us why Jesus “is the image of the invisible God.” It has absolutely nothing to with the specific context of the church. Paul is telling us who Jesus is in relation to all of creation.

Since we already established who the One God and one Lord are within their appropriate contexts then it doesn't follow this is literally about all things. Read on to verse 20 to see what the "all things" were Jesus reconciled. It refers to the sacrifice on the cross which, once again, applies exclusively to the church.

No such thing has been established; it has been claimed by you, but is certainly not established. Again, the context is about who Jesus is in relation to the entirety of creation, which, when we look at verse 20, clearly means all things in creation:

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)

Thank you for beginning that with an if because that's necessary. As demonstrated above, Jesus is not the God and he isn't the creator of the material universe according to Acts 4:24,27 and Acts 17:24. There are also a plethora of OT verses that speak directly to the fact that the Father is the sole creator.

First, you’re again fallaciously begging the question. Second, the reason I started with “if” is because I am making a logical argument—if X, then Y. It means that if X is the case, then Y must also the case. (I highly recommend taking a formal course in logic and critical thinking.)

So, the argument still stands because it is sound, technically speaking. That means both that the conclusion necessarily follows from the premises (it is valid) and the premises are true.

In other words, my argument, based on what Paul states, can only mean that Jesus (the Son) is not created and, therefore, has always existed with the Father as God. There simply is no alternative.

 

[Free]

"Universe" isn't the correct translation for this verse and I believe you know that. The correct word is "ages" which refers to a specific timeframe.

It has a number of meanings, including an indeterminate period of time, eternity, the world, and the universe. It is worth noting that it is also used here:

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. (ESV)

Hence "in the last days" God spoke through the Son. What was God saying through Jesus in the last days? Church doctrines, i.e., the Bible. The universe wasn't created in the last days and according to Hebrews 1:1 God didn't speak through the Son in the past when the universe was actually created. Context and proper exegesis clears it all up.

Except that you didn’t clear anything up.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (ESV)

This has nothing to do with whether or not the universe was created in the last days, because clearly that makes no sense. Note the use of “also” in verse 2. Just like Paul in Col 1:15-17, the writer here is simply telling us about who the Son is. That is rather the whole point of much of the whole book, including 1:10-12, where the Father says the Son is Yahweh who “laid the foundations of the earth,” etc.

No universe in Hebrews 1:2. It literally isn't there.

It literally could be there. Again, the word has a range of meanings. Even if it means “age” or “ages,” the implication is the same.

The word for universe is in John 1:10 where the Father made the literal world through His spoken word.

I’m glad you brought up John 1:10, because it is also speaking of the Word, the Son, creating the world:

Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Jhn 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Jhn 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Jhn 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Jhn 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Who did John bear witness about? Jesus, the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). So, what happened? The Son came into the world, “yet the world did not know him;” “He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.” However, “all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.”

That can only be speaking of Jesus, the Son. So, when we see in verse 10 that “the world was made through him,” we know this is talking about the Son. And, John has already told us is this in verse 3, so it is consistent.

It is also consistent with 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2, 10-12.

See above.

That’s not a useful response; that doesn’t address anything.

Now you see and agree that "all things" isn't always literally all things.

This is one area where your attempt at exegesis runs into problems. You seem to think a word always has the same meaning, but it is the context, the relationship of the words that determines the meaning.

In the case of John 14:26, Jesus very clearly tells us what he means by “all things”: “he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” While he certainly means all things that he taught them, it could also be expanded to include all things necessary for salvation and living unto God as followers of Christ. But Jesus clearly is not saying that they will come to know all things and so be omniscient, or even that they will know all things possible for humans to know.

In the other passages that are clearly talking about creation, the meaning of all things is literally everything that came into being. John 1:3 and Col 1:16-17 could not make that more clear.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe I am the Christian, but sure I won't respond in kind when people say I am not a Christian. I haven't seen anyone call them out yet, but thank you.

RM,
It's difficult to catch every single post that's breaking TOS. If you think you're being spoken to in an improper manner, we ask that you either report the post by using the REPORT button at the bottom left of each post, or by using TALK WITH STAFF.

As to what I mentioned, I'd like to say this:

I myself have said at times that one must believe in the Trinity in order to be identified as Christian.
I might have even said it to you at some time.
This does NOT mean that I think that person is not saved.

It seems to me that there are some beliefs that a Christian must have in order to be known as a Christian.
There were many heresies in the early church after Jesus ascended and the church had to decide, as a unit, which doctrine were going to be accepted by the church and which were not.

Arianism, the idea that Jesus was a man, was not accepted.
The early writings and the first Creed stated that Jesus is God.

IOW, the early church described what a Christian should believe.
And on the list of those beliefs is the belief that Jesus IS God.

Anyone can believe Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself....we do not censure on this site.
However, to tell someone that he is not Christian BECAUSE he believes in the Trinity goes against everything Christian.

Yes please answer at your convenience. No rush.

Coming up.