Jesus Christ THE FIRST and THE LAST

[KV-44-v1]

It is a sound argument. One you, or any other, have yet to attempt to refute.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

The Word, the pre-incarnate Son, could not have not existed if this statement is true.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

1. If “one God, the Father” precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that “one Lord, Jesus Christ” precludes the Father from being Lord. That is, if we can never say Jesus is also God, we can never say the Father is also Lord.

2. If “from whom are all things” speaks of the absolute nature of God, that he is necessary being, then it necessarily follows that “through whom are all things” speaks of the absolute nature of Jesus, that is also necessary being. That is the same conclusion as John 1:3.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

If “all things were created” by the Son and if “he is before all things,” then it necessarily follows that the Son cannot have been created, or else those verses would be false.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. (NIV)

The very same logic applies here. If the universe was made though the Son, which is the same as saying “all things,” then the Son cannot be something that was created or the verse is false.


How so? It clearly states that God says of the Son, “And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands,” etc. It is God himself saying that the Son created everything “in the beginning.” That is in complete agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2.


This is fallaciously begging the question.


So, you want to see what you want and stick to your beliefs despite the obvious contradiction. At least you can admit it.

Of course all things were reconciled to God while the Son was also a man; that was rather the main point of his coming. That does not, however, negate the fact that he also created all things. The fact he did so, as attested to by several passages, is central to understanding who he is and why his sacrifice was sufficient.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ESV)
The “Fors” and “Ands” mean something. They’re conjunctions; they connect words, phrases, or clauses that are the same, or connect dependant clauses to independent clauses. They provide the flow of thought, such as in the passage above.

The “For” at the start of verse 16 provides the basis for what was stated in verse 15. The “And” in verses 17 and 18 show that the thought is continuing. Verse 19 changes direction but it is still related to what came before, hence “For,” and verse 20 continues with that particular thought.

The whole point is that redemption, reconciliation, and salvation are based on who the Son is, namely, that he is the agent by whom all things that ever came into being, came into being. Again, that means he cannot have been something that came into being.

There is simply no way to limit this to the church without doing serious violence to the text.


Context, context, context. Col 1:16-17 make it clear that “all things” means all things—“by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.”

Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Here it is clear that Jesus is talking about the things that he said to them, not everything that can be known. Omnisicence is an incommunicable attribute of God.

Love this!!
People who reject Jesus' Divinity unto death will have to give an account.

 

[Runningman]

because they are little s sons, PLURAL.
but Jesus is THE SON, singular.

Jesus = God
Jesus =/= the Father
the Father = God
God = God
Three seperate Persons in One God.


Imagine a circle, a triangle, and a square (three seperate shapes) in one BOX.
But this is an imperfect analogy because God is not a physical creation.

If the Son of God is offspring and that makes him God in your logic then why aren't God's other offspring also God?

Now we need to take into account Jesus' mother who is demonstrably not God. So did she give birth to God or a human?

 

[Runningman]

this is referring to the fact that God never lies and never changes.

Do you believe that the Bible has contradictions?

Since God said He isn't a man or son of man and He also never changes then wouldn't becoming a man be a change?

No the Bible has no contradictions when properly understood.

 

[KV-44-v1]

If the Son of God is offspring and that makes him God in your logic then why aren't God's other offspring also God?

Now we need to take into account Jesus' mother who is demonstrably not God. So did she give birth to God or a human?

Jesus was always God's Son. He never began to exist, He always existed. All 3 Persons have existed without needing a beginning.

But the little-s sons of God are created beings.

Mary gave birth to the body that God would be in.

God is omnipotent. He can dwell in a body if He so chooses.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Since God said He isn't a man or son of man and He also never changes then wouldn't becoming a man be a change?

No the Bible has no contradictions when properly understood.

1 Timothy 3:16
.

 

[Runningman]

It is a sound argument. One you, or any other, have yet to attempt to refute.

Consider it done.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

The Word, the pre-incarnate Son, could not have not existed if this statement is true.

In 1 John 1:1-3 the Word of Life is referred to as an it that manifested life in a human named Jesus. Jesus, in turn, revealed the life he was given by God to his disciples. In this way, since Jesus is not a he and an it then it follows John 1:3 is personification of God's word. Otherwise, we have to tangle with contradictions like the Father being the exclusive Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 and confirmed by Acts 17:24. For this reason, the best way to understand literal words being called a "he" is by personification. There is personification of non-person things all over the Bible... hence why the Word (logos) is not a person in 99% of the New Testament. I hope that helps.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

1. If “one God, the Father” precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that “one Lord, Jesus Christ” precludes the Father from being Lord. That is, if we can never say Jesus is also God, we can never say the Father is also Lord.

That would be a false dichotomy. There can be a specific context someone is speaking to, such as Paul in this case. Let's use a real life example. If I walked into a business and asked to speak to the manager, they wouldn't go down the street and find the manager of a different business and bring them to me to speak to.

When Paul is speaking to the church, saying there is "One God the Father" and "One Lord Jesus" he isn't saying there are not other lords and gods, but as far as the church is concerned there is one God known as the Father and the one God made Lord of the church is Jesus.

This should be clear from the previous verse. Therein lies the issue with proof texting.

1 Corinthians 8
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords),

2. If “from whom are all things” speaks of the absolute nature of God, that he is necessary being, then it necessarily follows that “through whom are all things” speaks of the absolute nature of Jesus, that is also necessary being. That is the same conclusion as John 1:3.

All of Jesus' doctrines, teachings, words, etc. came from God the Father. The Father has the words of eternal life which Jesus received and gave to people who later became the church. God didn't come down and speak directly to the people who became the Jesus' disciples. Jesus is thusly the intermediary .

John 12
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Once again, it speaks to the specific context of the church. See the above example about the manager in a business. If I walked into a business and said "create me everything" and they specialize in donuts I would get one of every donut.

Since we already established who the One God and one Lord are within their appropriate contexts then it doesn't follow this is literally about all things. Read on to verse 20 to see what the "all things" were Jesus reconciled. It refers to the sacrifice on the cross which, once again, applies exclusively to the church.

If “all things were created” by the Son and if “he is before all things,” then it necessarily follows that the Son cannot have been created, or else those verses would be false.

Thank you for beginning that with an if because that's necessary. As demonstrated above, Jesus is not the God and he isn't the creator of the material universe according to Acts 4:24,27 and Acts 17:24. There are also a plethora of OT verses that speak directly to the fact that the Father is the sole creator.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. (NIV)

"Universe" isn't the correct translation for this verse and I believe you know that. The correct word is "ages" which refers to a specific timeframe. Hence "in the last days" God spoke through the Son. What was God saying through Jesus in the last days? Church doctrines, i.e., the Bible. The universe wasn't created in the last days and according to Hebrews 1:1 God didn't speak through the Son in the past when the universe was actually created. Context and proper exegesis clears it all up.

The very same logic applies here. If the universe was made though the Son, which is the same as saying “all things,” then the Son cannot be something that was created or the verse is false.

No universe in Hebrews 1:2. It literally isn't there. The word for universe is in John 1:10 where the Father made the literal world through His spoken word.

How so? It clearly states that God says of the Son, “And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands,” etc. It is God himself saying that the Son created everything “in the beginning.” That is in complete agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2.

See above.

So, you want to see what you want and stick to your beliefs despite the obvious contradiction. At least you can admit it.

I may ask you the same.

Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Here it is clear that Jesus is talking about the things that he said to them, not everything that can be known. Omnisicence is an incommunicable attribute of God.

Now you see and agree that "all things" isn't always literally all things.

 

[Runningman]

1 Timothy 3:16
.

What about it?

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was always God's Son. He never began to exist, He always existed. All 3 Persons have existed without needing a beginning.

But the little-s sons of God are created beings.

Mary gave birth to the body that God would be in.

God is omnipotent. He can dwell in a body if He so chooses.

So Jesus "the human" isn't God. So God was dwelling in Jesus? I believe that too!

 

[KV-44-v1]

In 1 John 1:1-3 the Word of Life is referred to as an it that manifested life in a human named Jesus. Jesus, in turn, revealed the life he was given by God to his disciples. In this way, since Jesus is not a he and an it then it follows John 1:3 is personification of God's word. Otherwise, we have to tangle with contradictions like the Father being the exclusive Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 and confirmed by Acts 17:24. For this reason, the best way to understand literal words being called a "he" is by personification. There is personification of non-person things all over the Bible... hence why the Word (logos) is not a person in 99% of the New Testament. I hope that helps.

So if Jesus was not Personal, how could an impersonal Christ die for the sins of personal men??


"Jesus is not a he" - runningman in a desperate attempt to deny Jesus, 2024.

Repent!!

Jesus loves you!

John 3:16: "“For God so loved the world, that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."​

Ephesians 2:4-8: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"​

John 14:21: Whoever has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”​

 

[KV-44-v1]

So Jesus "the human" isn't God.

are you referring to that God was not His body?
God was IN the body!

 

[Runningman]

So if Jesus was not Personal, how could an impersonal Christ die for the sins of personal men??

That isn't what I said either.

"Jesus is not a he" - runningman in a desperate attempt to deny Jesus, 2024.

But that isn't what I said. Jesus is a he, words are not a he.

Repent!!

Repent of what exactly? What is my sin?

Jesus loves you!

John 3:16: "“For God so loved the world, that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."​

Ephesians 2:4-8: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"​

John 14:21: Whoever has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”​

I already believe those things.

 

[Runningman]

are you referring to that God was not His body?
God was IN the body!

Since the body is God's temple then is the temple God?

 

[Dmytro]

Well, thank you for sharing your opinion and commentary. Some of what you said I do agree with, but other parts I find to be dangerous and a path to sin.

The Bible is quite explicit about worshipping human beings as though they are God is idolatry. I hope that after all of the theology, opinions, belief, and commentary is done that we can at least find common ground there.

Perhaps rather than trying to paint your debate opponents as dangerous heretics and delusional, you should turn that mirror on yourself and simply ask "Is worshipping a man as God idolatry?" You don't need to answer here if you don't prefer to, but this is a matter between you and God. I firmly believe if you were to ask God this then this is the kind of prayer He wants to answer. If you can't hear Him, perhaps you will hear the Bible on this point.

If you have any further questions please let me know.

You didn't get my point. I'm not discussing the deity of the Son any longer since it is obvious for me. I've got no questions for you, you've made your views very clear. I didn't address my comment to you since we've got no common understanding to continue and I want to move further.

 

[Dmytro]

Hey! All who are interested we can continue here link to the new thread.

 

[Runningman]

You didn't get my point. I'm not discussing the deity of the Son any longer since it is obvious for me. I've got no questions for you, you've made your views very clear. I didn't address my comment to you since we've got no common understanding to continue and I want to move further.

You pinged my username in that comment so I responded to it. You also pinged me again in your new thread, an accident I assume, since the ping was clearly edited out. No problem. See you there.

 

[Dmytro]

You pinged my username in that comment so I responded to it. You also pinged me again in your new thread, an accident I assume, since the ping was clearly edited out. No problem. See you there.

I've corrected that new thread.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Repent of what exactly? What is my sin?

Denying Jesus. Deny a part of His Nature, deny Him.
Some people think that Jesus has both a 100% human nature AND a 100% Divine Nature.

 

[KV-44-v1]

That would be a false dichotomy.

All your examples of "JESUS NOT GOD" are false dichotomies.

 

[Runningman]

Denying Jesus. Deny a part of His Nature, deny Him.
Some people think that Jesus has both a 100% human nature AND a 100% Divine Nature.

That isn't a sin. Nothing in the Bible says that knowing Jesus isn't God is a sin nor does the gospel say "Believe Jesus is God to be saved."

 

[KV-44-v1]

That isn't a sin. Nothing in the Bible says that knowing Jesus isn't God is a sin nor does the gospel say "Believe Jesus is God to be saved."

Knowing? More like asserting.
If you belittle Jesus, then how can you consistently believe that He did what He did to save us?
You are like the Pharisees in your Jesus-denial!

Luke 14:27
How are you going to frame this verse so that HUMANS have disciples?? Lol!

2 Corinthians 5:17
Are you going to be "in a HUMAN"????
Believing that Jesus is nothing but a human is absurd, illogical, and tramples on the rest of the New Testament.

Jesus is God. Accept it, or else your understanding of the Bible will make no sense.

Acts 3:6
"In the name of a mere human whos not God, walk!!" HAAHAHAHHA - YOUR REJECTION OF JESUS IS CRAZY.

I have a tip for you, instead of reading "Son of God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" or any Name or Title referring to the Messiah, say/think "human who is only human and not God".

If you cannot see the illogic, oh well. Your choice to maintain your blindness.

Islam Jesus:


Biblical Jesus: