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Jesus Is God: Part 1

Putting Clarke's commentary aside, and leaning on Him, I read Jesus who is the image of the invisible God as meaning Jesus as the image of God the Father not presently seen, but we will because Jesus said we will in Heaven in John 16:23-28

Thank you for sharing. I hope you have a good night.
I don't see it that way, you said putting Adam Clark aside,
image
[ˈimij]

NOUN
  1. a representation of the external form of a person or thing in art.
    "her work juxtaposed images from serious and popular art"
    synonyms:
    likeness · resemblance · depiction · portrayal · representation · statue ·
    [more]
  2. the general impression that a person, organization, or product presents to the public.
    "she strives to project an image of youth"
    synonyms:
    public perception · public conception · public impression · persona · profile · face · identity · front · facade · mask · guise · role · part · portrayal · depiction
  3. a simile or metaphor.
    "he uses the image of a hole to describe emotional emptiness"
    synonyms:
    simile · metaphor · metonymy · figure of speech · trope ·
    [more]
VERB
  1. make a representation of the external form of.
    "artworks that imaged women's bodies"
 
I don't see it that way, you said putting Adam Clark aside,
image
[ˈimij]

NOUN
  1. a representation of the external form of a person or thing in art.
    "her work juxtaposed images from serious and popular art"
    synonyms:
    likeness · resemblance · depiction · portrayal · representation · statue ·
    [more]
  2. the general impression that a person, organization, or product presents to the public.
    "she strives to project an image of youth"
    synonyms:
    public perception · public conception · public impression · persona · profile · face · identity · front · facade · mask · guise · role · part · portrayal · depiction
  3. a simile or metaphor.
    "he uses the image of a hole to describe emotional emptiness"
    synonyms:
    simile · metaphor · metonymy · figure of speech · trope ·
    [more]
VERB
  1. make a representation of the external form of.
    "artworks that imaged women's bodies"
Thanks for sharing but I do prefer to align applications of His words as the actual meaning, has to align with other scriptures since scripture cannot go against scripture.
 
Thanks for sharing but I do prefer to align applications of His words as the actual meaning, has to align with other scriptures since scripture cannot go against scripture.
What have I said against scripture? but the way that you have not understood.
 
What have I said against scripture? but the way that you have not understood.
Well since it is on God to cause the increase on either one of us, we can pray for each other as well as for ourselves for the Lord to minister to see the truth in His words.

By the way, are you both present when you guys post a response after talking it over or is it mainly Walter or mainly Debbie that is posting? Just wondering.

I almost signed off wishing you a good night "brother" but then I forgot there is another name to your nick and so brother & sister? Not sure how to sign off to you for the night, but do have a good night.
 
Well since it is on God to cause the increase on either one of us, we can pray for each other as well as for ourselves for the Lord to minister to see the truth in His words.

By the way, are you both present when you guys post a response after talking it over or is it mainly Walter or mainly Debbie that is posting? Just wondering.

I almost signed off wishing you a good night "brother" but then I forgot there is another name to your nick and so brother & sister? Not sure how to sign off to you for the night, but do have a good night.
Thanks.

Walter
 
If we were to take Jesus at His words; He had a celestial form before His incarnation that was seen by men in the Old Testament.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I would imagine it was that day in Genesis 18 chapter when He came and sat and drank with 2 other angels along with Abraham & Sarah when He announced Sara would have a son. I would think that would be cause for his rejoicing in Him in that day.

There were other days when it was written that the Lord had appeared unto Abraham like in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1 and then unto Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2 and again that night in Genesi 26:24 & then unto Jacob in his wrestling with Him in Genesis 32:24-30, but I think that day in Genesis 18:1 was when Abraham had rejoiced to see Him.

Greetings, Golgotha. My apologies for the late reply. I have been away from this forum for awhile.

Your post is thought-provoking. If I can state so politely, however, I would have to disagree with your premise here. I do believe both the Son and the Father have a form like that of man, but when Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day," He was talking about Abraham witnessing the coming of the promised Messiah from Paradise in the Underworld. If you'll notice, Abraham told the following to the rich man when he complained about suffering in torment:

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented." This suggests Abraham and the other Old Testament saints were able to see the things going on in the earth from their vantage point in the Underworld, just as scripture says we have a cloud of witnesses who are seeing us live out our lives in the earth right now.

This I believe is the accurate meaning of what Jesus meant by, "Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced." The Pharisees then asked when he had ever seen Abraham rejoice, and Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I Am," meaning "I have seen even more than Abraham has, for I exited from the beginning."

I'll try to catch up on the rest of your post and the rest of this thread if I can. Looks like it has received some interesting activity.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 
Greetings, Golgotha. My apologies for the late reply. I have been away from this forum for awhile.

Your post is thought-provoking. If I can state so politely, however, I would have to disagree with your premise here. I do believe both the Son and the Father have a form like that of man, but when Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day," He was talking about Abraham witnessing the coming of the promised Messiah from Paradise in the Underworld. If you'll notice, Abraham told the following to the rich man when he complained about suffering in torment:

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented." This suggests Abraham and the other Old Testament saints were able to see the things going on in the earth from their vantage point in the Underworld, just as scripture says we have a cloud of witnesses who are seeing us live out our lives in the earth right now.

This I believe is the accurate meaning of what Jesus meant by, "Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced." The Pharisees then asked when he had ever seen Abraham rejoice, and Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I Am," meaning "I have seen even more than Abraham has, for I exited from the beginning."

I'll try to catch up on the rest of your post and the rest of this thread if I can. Looks like it has received some interesting activity.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
No apologies necessary. Everything is on God for it is His ministry for why His yoke is easy & His burden is light. He leads us and helps us to serve Him for why we are profitless servants. There is joy in seeing Him work.

Thank you for sharing but there is one point regarding Jesus talking about Abraham that almost got Him stoned to death.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So Jesus had existed before His incarnation for Him to say Abraham had seen Him.

And Genesis 18:1 was when the Lord appeared to Abraham when Abraham invited the Lord and the other 2 to stay and dine with them and He & they did. Abraham rejoiced that day because that was when the Lord told him that Sara would have a son.

Then Jesus answer in John 8:58 can be applied to His deity and how man was created in His image and after His likeness.

May Lord be willing to have us continue in our discussion as I hope for His ministry in causing this iron sharpen iron to take place to grow in the knowledge of Him.

Otherwise, we shall know in full when we are face to face with the Lord in Heaven, Lord be willing for that too as I hope in the Lord Jesus Christ for that too.

I hope you have a good night, brother.
 
Thank you for sharing but there is one point regarding Jesus talking about Abraham that almost got Him stoned to death.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So Jesus had existed before His incarnation for Him to say Abraham had seen Him.

Gracious post. I think you make a jump from arguing the verse says that Jesus was pre-existent to having it say that Abraham saw Him in a pre-existent form, but not worth arguing over.

Blessings to you as well, and a pleasure reading some of your posts. Lord willing He will give us some time to discuss the scriptures in depth together.

In Christ Jesus,
Hidden
 
Putting Clarke's commentary aside, and leaning on Him, I read Jesus who is the image of the invisible God as meaning Jesus as the image of God the Father not presently seen, but we will because Jesus said we will in Heaven in John 16:23-28

Thank you for sharing. I hope you have a good night.
Sir, of course, this is your understanding, but it is not mine at this time, thanks for sharing.

Walter and Debbie
 
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Sir, of course, this is your understanding, but it is not mine at this time, thanks for sharing.

Walter and Debbie
Hi Golgotha, thank you for your prayers, Brother, I just had to get back to our discussion, and I had been praying for God to show us what we need to do about accepting each other views with an open mind concerning His words in sharing with others.

Walter
 
Hi Golgotha, thank you for your prayers, Brother, I just had to get back to our discussion, and I had been praying for God to show us what we need to do about accepting each other views with an open mind concerning His words in sharing with others.

Walter
Have a good night Brother :pray

Love, Walter
 
Greetings Hidden In Him, and how are you all? I tell you from the OP/Jesus Is GOD, is the way that I long ago used to believe, but now I know from the scriptures which can not be broken, in which Jesus said himself that GOD is Spirit/John 4:24.

But it is evident from others also that they too are following Him in knowing Him to be The Son Of The Living GOD, The Only Begotten of The Father.

Love, Walter and Debbie

Hi Walter!

I was never the indoctrinated type, so I came to taking the orthodox position by my own study. But it's one of the tougher questions to debate from the original languages, so I hold to my position while allowing others to hold to theirs. Jesus becomes the Son of God to those He reveals Himself to as such.

God bless! And hope you and your wife are having a nice holiday season!
 

I briefly read through your link.

If you'd like a response, I think your writer misinterprets Paul's use of the expression, "[Christ] is the image of the invisible God."

To quote him:

JESUS OUR LORD WHILE ON EARTH WAS THE IMAGE OF GOD. IF ONE THING IS THE “IMAGE” OF ANOTHER THING, THEN THE “IMAGE” AND THE “ORIGINAL” ARE NOT THE SAME THING. THE FATHER IS GOD, AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS NO VERSE THAT CALLS THE FATHER THE IMAGE OF GOD. THE APOSTLE PAUL STATED JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF GOD. THE APOSTLE PAUL RESTATED THE STATEMENT OF JESUS, “ANYONE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER” (JOHN 14:9 AND 10).

What Paul was doing in this passage is using the analogy of Christ as a firstborn son in the natural; i.e. of a son being made in the physical likeness of his father because they have the same genetic make up. So it's an analogy. Paul is not literally saying Jesus was made in the physical image of the Father, so much as using the analogy to say that He is the firstborn Heir to the Father's kingdom. This is what Paul meant by the following:

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation...
 
I briefly read through your link.

If you'd like a response, I think your writer misinterprets Paul's use of the expression, "[Christ] is the image of the invisible God."

To quote him:

JESUS OUR LORD WHILE ON EARTH WAS THE IMAGE OF GOD. IF ONE THING IS THE “IMAGE” OF ANOTHER THING, THEN THE “IMAGE” AND THE “ORIGINAL” ARE NOT THE SAME THING. THE FATHER IS GOD, AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS NO VERSE THAT CALLS THE FATHER THE IMAGE OF GOD. THE APOSTLE PAUL STATED JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF GOD. THE APOSTLE PAUL RESTATED THE STATEMENT OF JESUS, “ANYONE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER” (JOHN 14:9 AND 10).

What Paul was doing in this passage is using the analogy of Christ as a firstborn son in the natural; i.e. of a son being made in the physical likeness of his father because they have the same genetic make up. So it's an analogy. Paul is not literally saying Jesus was made in the physical image of the Father, so much as using the analogy to say that He is the firstborn Heir to the Father's kingdom. This is what Paul meant by the following:

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation...



John 1:1​

1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 14:28 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 17:1-5

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Read full chapter

Love, Walter

 

John 1:1​

1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 14:28 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 17:1-5​

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Read full chapter

Love, Walter

Also:

John 16:1:1-33

Jesus' Warning

(Acts 23:12-22)

1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

The Holy Spirit Promised

(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

The Disciples' Grief will Turn to Joy

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. 19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? 20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. 22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Ask and You will Receive

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Love, Walter
 
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The Holy Spirit Promised
Just for clarification, but the promise and all the words the Holy Spirit relays to us are from Jesus Christ since Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church & the Bridegroom.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

In these latter days, a lot of believers & churches are saying holy Spirit this and Holy Spirit that, but since the role of the indwelling Holy Spirit is still pointing us to come to God the Father by the only way provided and that is by the Son, to testify of Him in seeking His glory, we need the scripture in know how the Holy Spirit is speaking.

Think Spirit of Christ for how the Holy Spirit is fulfilling that role as speaking from Him.
 
Just for clarification, but the promise and all the words the Holy Spirit relays to us are from Jesus Christ since Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church & the Bridegroom.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

In these latter days, a lot of believers & churches are saying holy Spirit this and Holy Spirit that, but since the role of the indwelling Holy Spirit is still pointing us to come to God the Father by the only way provided and that is by the Son, to testify of Him in seeking His glory, we need the scripture in know how the Holy Spirit is speaking.

Think Spirit of Christ for how the Holy Spirit is fulfilling that role as speaking from Him.
Thank you

Walter
 
Greetings all. I posted this elsewhere and thought maybe I would share it with my new forum as well, since I have a few days off for a little forum activity. There are a lot of non-Trinitarians on the forum where I initially posted this, which is why I thought it might be helpful in illuminating the Biblical text, and providing a support base for the teaching of the early church. There is a Part 2 and Part 3, but all center on passages that I feel non-Trinitarian arguments don't do very good job of refuting.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is one non-Trinitarian argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________


The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
The problem with this post is that Jesus is talking to someone else. If that someone else is God, then how is Jesus?
 
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