Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Hopeful]

The Words name for repentance is John (sent by the Father who has many names).

John?
You lost me there.

The Words name for empowerment to witness is Holy.

John, Jesus, Holy.

One name for salvation - Jesus, but other names for other actions.

Titles are legal descriptions of offices of something.

Personally I think we argue ( terrible ) over splitting our understanding, rather than embracing what we share.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

John?
You lost me there.

Acts 19;3 kjv
3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism
4. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

The name of John was associated with the baptism of repentance.

The baptism of John does not save, but is a baptism.

The baptism of Jesus saves for eternity. The one baptism you may be saved by.

Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit and fire. Holy is the name. The Holy Spirit baptism is the power to witness.

Mississippi redneck (what could I know)
eddif

 

[Randy]

The only begotten Son would only hold to the incarnation. The first and the last. The Angels of God are begotten by God. Though the church has maintained Jesus was begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. They would state the Angels were formed by God. Regardless the Angels are begotten Sons.

About the Lords anointed (Christ)
Psalm 2
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Jesus Himself is certainly 1st in everything as in before the creation of worlds or all other beings not meaning the Father.
"The firstborn of all creation"
Col 1:17
He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Paul, Hebrews and John all state the creation was made by Him as in through Him and Paul adds for Him.

Hebrews states God, as in the Father, made all thing through Him (Christ Jesus)

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

Paul -"all things were made through Him and for Him" - Which speaks of another.
Paul "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" Which speaks of the will of another
-Hebrews in regard to the Son - "The exact imprint of Gods being"
So Jesus is all that the Father is - God

The Oneness between Jesus and the Father
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John still referred to Jesus the Son of man as the word of life.

1John

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ

One would need to believe in Jesus in a way that "He" is one that you go to in regard to in receiving life.

I had a recent back and forth dialogue with a JW and in was clear to me they don't believe in Jesus that way. They won't even pray to Jesus. I showed where Jesus said you can ask Him anything. The reply was "then Jesus lied" . Unbelievable.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The verse says He feels our infirmities as He was once tempted, but being fully God and fully man He could not fall to those temptations. If He would have then He would not have been the Messiah.

JLB . My home forum has been overrun by Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians lately, and while this passage should be proof enough of the Divinity of Christ, I noticed the JWs switch the placement of "is" in verse 8 to read, "God is your throne forever and ever," thereby deflecting away from Jesus to God. I noticed they also continually manipulate the word "Lord" to deny His Divinity as well, translating it as "Jehovah" when it suits their doctrine, but "Lord" if translating it as "Jehovah" in such instances will imply that Jesus is God. It seems entirely arbitrary, and based on their refusal to accept the Trinity.

for_his_glory. I wanted to ask you a question: I noticed there is no Jehovah's Witness or Unitarian responses in this thread yet. Is that because they're not allowed to post on this forum, or simply because they are not well-represented here? Just curious. I'm wondering about the rules here, and how well they are enforced. Thanks, HiH.

 

[Hidden In Him]

had a recent back and forth dialogue with a JW and in was clear to me they don't believe in Jesus that way. They won't even pray to Jesus. I showed where Jesus said you can ask Him anything. The reply was "then Jesus lied" . Unbelievable.

LoL. I've seen the "Then Jesus lied" argument a lot lately myself.

In truth, I've been looking at a lot of the Jehovah's Witness arguments lately, and if you look at things in the Greek they actually do (unfortunately) have wiggle room to pull off many of the translation/interpretation tricks they like to use much of the time, so I'm realizing why debating them can be a bit of a stickler.

But their translation of Hebrews 1:8 is dubious at best, and as referred to in my previous post, their manipulation of the Greek word κύριος on a continual basis, to suit their liking, is a tremendous red flag IMO.

 

[eddif]

LoL. I've seen the "Then Jesus lied" argument a lot lately myself.

In truth, I've been looking at a lot of the Jehovah's Witness arguments lately, and if you look at things in the Greek they actually do (unfortunately) have wiggle room to pull off many of the translation/interpretation tricks they like to use much of the time, so I'm realizing why debating them can be a bit of a stickler.

But their translation of Hebrews 1:8 is dubious at best, and as referred to in my previous post, their manipulation of the Greek word κύριος on a continual basis, to suit their liking, is a tremendous red flag IMO.

II Timothy 2:14 kjv
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

I started a Greek course years ago, and suddenly I was being shown a popular doctrine absolutely proved by the Greek at their seminary. I asked if another denominations seminary would have the same Greek rules. I got no answer and they changed the subject. To which I said (oh no I need the question answered). Finally I got a no ( the Greek rules would be different).
So
I gave up on taking Greek. Is language study helpful? Yes. Is it really difficult? For me I see traps everywhere. You even caught word highlights I changed.

Looking at the actions of Jesus help a lot at interpretation of scripture. It is a lot of work using piles of related scraps about the same thing (dividing).

I have wound up in symbolism. Most think I am from another planet.

Help keep me straight.

eddif

 

[jaybo]

Here is what that verse means in English:

2 Timothy 2:14, NET 2.1, "Remind people of these things and solemnly charge them before the Lord not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen."

It's much clearer than the KJV. I hope this helps.

 

[Hidden In Him]

II Timothy 2:14 kjv
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

I've been avoiding too much involvement with them, out of necessity in fact, since I have very little time right now anyway. But yes, when I do interact with them it will likely be very direct and to the point quickly. One of them is into debate tactics, and despite maybe his not meaning it that way he is engaging in things as if it's all a game. I'm not using "tactics" whenever I discuss doctrine no matter how much he labels my every post as an attempt at doing so.

I started a Greek course years ago, and suddenly I was being shown a popular doctrine absolutely proved by the Greek at their seminary. I asked if another denominations seminary would have the same Greek rules. I got no answer and they changed the subject. To which I said (oh no I need the question answered). Finally I got a no ( the Greek rules would be different).

I considered going to New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (even though I'm not Baptist) for a Masters in Theology after college, but in the end I declined. I decided instead to invest in a fairly large library, and just teach myself. I've always learned better on my own anyway. I'm thankful for the Lord providing me with the ability to study the languages, however, as one cannot come to precise interpretation without close examination of the texts (despite discrepancies in the manuscripts, and inexactness in the way Greek is written out that leaves room for leeway in translation and interpretation).

I gave up on taking Greek.

Should you decide to ever get back into it, let me encourage you: We are blessed to live in a day and time when you no longer have to memorize a thousand declensions to study the original. I've picked up actually reading Greek several times and dropped it just as many. But thankfully there are so many study helps out there that it's not absolutely necessary to read it in order to study it. You just need to spend some money; at least a thousand dollars to start.

I have wound up in symbolism. Most think I am from another planet.

Our citizenship is in Heaven, so maybe you actually are.

 

[JLB]

My home forum has been overrun by Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians lately, and while this passage should be proof enough of the Divinity of Christ, I noticed the JWs switch the placement of "is" in verse 8 to read, "God is your throne forever and ever," thereby deflecting away from Jesus to God. I noticed they also continually manipulate the word "Lord" to deny His Divinity as well, translating it as "Jehovah" when it suits their doctrine, but "Lord" if translating it as "Jehovah" in such instances will imply that Jesus is God. It seems entirely arbitrary, and based on their refusal to accept the Trinity.

Sorry to hear about your Forum being overrun by JW’s lately.

I have fought for years against such teachings here.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

• But to the Son He says: … (The Father is saying to the Son) - And:“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

This is a direct quote from Zechariah 12 —



The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:… “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.



Jesus the Son, the LORD, (YHWH) laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Hs hands.




Zechariah goes on to say —


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


The day of the LORD, (YHWH) is coming, and He the LORD, (YHWH) is coming with His saints from Heaven, which is a reference to Jesus coming on the Day of the Lord, with His saints.



It is the Son coming with the saints on that Day, to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture.




JLB

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

The day of the LORD, (YHWH) is coming, and He the LORD, (YHWH) is coming with His saints from Heaven, which is a reference to Jesus coming on the Day of the Lord, with His saints.

I wonder how they interpret the totality of Zechariah 14, since it appears the entire Chapter has not yet come to pass. If they acknowledge it is still future, it becomes rather difficult to deny v.5 is obviously referring to the second coming.

Ever had them answer that question for you?

 

[JLB]

I wonder how they interpret the totality of Zechariah 14, since it appears the entire Chapter has not yet come to pass. If they acknowledge it is still future, it becomes rather difficult to deny v.5 is obviously referring to the second coming.

Ever had them answer that question for you?

They can’t answer it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They can’t answer it.

Ok... they seem to have an answer for everything, LoL, so I guess I'll wait to see if that rings true with the ones I end up dealing with. But thanks for the heads up. I did notice that Zechariah 14 in particular doesn't come up in searches that provide JW pat answers to Trinitarian arguments (only Zechariah 12 verses), which means they likely may not have a very persuasive answer for it.

Thanks again for the help,
- H

 

[for_his_glory]

@for_his_glory. I wanted to ask you a question: I noticed there is no Jehovah's Witness or Unitarian responses in this thread yet. Is that because they're not allowed to post on this forum, or simply because they are not well-represented here? Just curious. I'm wondering about the rules here, and how well they are enforced. Thanks, HiH.

We get a few of both every so often, which they are more than welcomed, but just like everyone else they need to read the Community message, Statement of faith and The Terms of Service (ToS) and abide by them. We try to keep unity of love among the members, but when this does not happen by a member violation the ToS they get a notice of the violation and their post are either edited or deleted depend what they type.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Wouldn't you think the "Divine" would know when the end of the world is?
Jesus is divine now, since His ascension and the acquisition of His glorified body.

Not sure what you mean.
Since Jesus is not the Father, and he says only the Father knows, then how does anything change that?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not sure what you mean.
Since Jesus is not the Father, and he says only the Father knows, then how does anything change that?

Hello Rollo!

 

[Hopeful]

Not sure what you mean.
Since Jesus is not the Father, and he says only the Father knows, then how does anything change that?

Divinity without total knowledge?
I struggle with that idea.

 

[JLB]

Not sure what you mean.
Since Jesus is not the Father, and he says only the Father knows, then how does anything change that?

Maybe not to the day, but certainly the week and month.



We can know the time a season of the Lords return, by the signs He gave and the Spirit within us.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Maybe not to the day, but certainly the week and month.



We can know the time a season of the Lords return, by the signs He gave and the Spirit within us.

No we can't.
People being thrown into the lion's den in the colliseum thought that was the end times.
People thought when Hitler came in was the end times.
The end times may have started with the start of covid.
Who knows?
I always like to say "the end will come a week from Tuesday".
Because that's as good a guess as any.
And I've gone through a lot of Tuesdays (over 20 years worth) since I started saying that.

 

[Randy]

No we can't.
People being thrown into the lion's den in the colliseum thought that was the end times.
People thought when Hitler came in was the end times.
The end times may have started with the start of covid.
Who knows?
I always like to say "the end will come a week from Tuesday".
Because that's as good a guess as any.
And I've gone through a lot of Tuesdays (over 20 years worth) since I started saying that.

I would state Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days as I read.
The two witnesses are overpowered by the beast.
The beasts reign is 42 months.
The beast is defeated by Jesus and the armies of heaven that follow Him.

So when the signs given in Rev 11 are fulfilled one should know the Lords return is at the door.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I would state Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days as I read.
The two witnesses are overpowered by the beast.
The beasts reign is 42 months.
The beast is defeated by Jesus and the armies of heaven that follow Him.

So when the signs given in Rev 11 are fulfilled one should know the Lords return is at the door.

The word "can" is present tense.
How "can" we know when the end will come?