Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Looking to grow in the word of God more?

    See our Bible Studies and Devotionals sections in Christian Growth

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

  • Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?

    Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15

    https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/

Jesus is not YHVH

I am in the Father, and the Father in Me

Do you think this could point to the fact that both the Father and the Son are One, as in God?

Going on that line of thought, Jesus wasn't necessarily saying He and the Father are one and the same but He bears the same character as the Father because He and the Father are both is God.
 
Last edited:
I am in the Father, and the Father in Me

Do you think this could point to the fact that both the Father and the Son are One, as in God?

Going on that line of thought, Jesus wasn't necessarily saying He and the Father are one and the same but He bears the same character as the Father because He and the Father are both is God.
No, I don't think it can point to a oneness as God based on John 17:11, 21-23 where Yeshua prayed that his followers would have the same kind of oneness that he and his Father have; not a oneness of being or of being God, but of character, purpose, etc. Verse 21 says, "one in us", meaning we are in the Father and in the Son just as they are in us, but we are not God.
 
Interesting observation. I am curious though about another part of the text I quoted. He who has seen Me has seen the Father; Using the word "seen" here seems to suggest the physical. For me, putting it together it seems that Jesus is pointing out a relationship between both His physical self and His Spiritual self. We know from Matthew 1:23 and John 1:14 that those who have seen Him have seen the Father because both "is" God. In this sense it seems that His speaking of being one with the Father might go a little deeper than what He meant in John 17.

Your thoughts?
 
God Put His Spirit Without Measure in the body, called His Son. God chose to "express" Himself in the Image of His Son.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

It is virtually impossible to "divide" The Father from His Image, His Expression, His Son, HIS LIVING WORD.

We are advised NOT to obsess about THE FLESH of His Son, just as we are advised to know no man after the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

An accurate PICTURE, if we can call it that, is that The Father Is The Spirit, without limitation or restriction, and THE SON Is His Expression in Word/Image. There are however no differences between them. God Has Chosen to Express Himself through His Son, to whom God has given "all things" which means everything in creation. God Himself can not be "a thing."

It is impossible to make God into any "thing." We might consider His Son as The Divine Interlocutor of Eternal Life between Himself and all creation/created "things." The Intention of God is to draw all things into/unto the submission of Christ. Subdued.

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.





 
God Put His Spirit Without Measure in the body, called His Son. God chose to "express" Himself in the Image of His Son.
Are you saying God's spirit became the Son when given a human body or that God gave his Son in a human body?
 
Are you saying God's spirit became the Son when given a human body or that God gave his Son in a human body?

Uh, no. But I appreciate the attempt.

The Father and The Son are, always have been, Eternal. The Son is The Expression/Image of The Father, yet are ONE. And yes, a "flesh body" was prepared for The Son.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Reflective of:

Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

among others
 
Interesting observation. I am curious though about another part of the text I quoted. He who has seen Me has seen the Father; Using the word "seen" here seems to suggest the physical. For me, putting it together it seems that Jesus is pointing out a relationship between both His physical self and His Spiritual self. We know from Matthew 1:23 and John 1:14 that those who have seen Him have seen the Father because both "is" God. In this sense it seems that His speaking of being one with the Father might go a little deeper than what He meant in John 17.

Your thoughts?
Prior to Yeshua's words in John 14:9, he said;

“The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.” John 5:37
"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46​

That tells me that when the disciples looked upon Yeshua's physical form, they were not seeing the Father. They were seeing the "express image" of the Father, but not the Father Himself. Were they seeing "God"?

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." 1 John 4:12​

The disciples were not seeing "God" either.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.' 2 Corinthians 5:19
God (Father Yahweh) was in Christ through His indwelling Holy Spirit, but he was not Christ. As Yeshua said, "and the Father in me."
 
No one has actually heard God or seen God. Never will.

What we see and hear is His, God's Image, His, God's Expression. His, God's Son.

God The Father is invisible:

Colossians 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1 Timothy 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time.
 
God (Father Yahweh) was in Christ through His indwelling Holy Spirit, but he was not Christ. As Yeshua said, "and the Father in me."

Where most of the above kinds of sights go haywire is when trying to divide the Father from the Son. They really are ONE.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.


The basic litmus test on strays is when they try to DIVIDE The Godhead. It's quite pointless to do so.
 
Where most of the above kinds of sights go haywire is when trying to divide the Father from the Son. They really are ONE.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.


The basic litmus test on strays is when they try to DIVIDE The Godhead. It's quite pointless to do so.
Ah! The old "divide and conquer" strategy. First you try and divide me from the Body by calling me a "stray", then you will conquer me with your "spiritual insights". "Godhead" is a very poor translation of three Greek words that mean "divinity" or refer to the "divine being" or "deity". "Godhead" is real convenient, though, to give the idea of a God comprised of more than one being.
 
I view the use of the word or name God as being the complete package so-to-speak which is the combination of or manifest in the three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit similar to what is depicted in the figure below.
View attachment 8012

I still think that where the rubber meets the road we are still trying to explain a Godly existence using human understanding and we are not likely to truly and completely explain or understand it until we leave this life.
 
God Put His Spirit Without Measure in the body, called His Son. God chose to "express" Himself in the Image of His Son.

It is not just God's spirit that was "in" Jesus, the fullness of God is "in" Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Your comment seems very similar to the Ebionite heresy which held that Jesus was a mere man endued with divine power and the heresy of Apollenarius who taught that the mind of Jesus was the divine Logos rather than a human mind.

The teaching of the church concerning the divine and human natures of Christ, since the council of Chalcedon (451) is as follows:

THEREFORE, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge
1 one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood,
3 truly God and truly man,
4 consisting also of a reasonable soul and body;
5 of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead,
6 and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood;
7 like us in all respects, apart from sin;
8 as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages,
9 but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer;
10 one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten,
11 recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation;
12 the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union,
13 but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence,
14 not as parted or separated into two persons,
15 but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ;
16 even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us,
and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


The Coptic (Egyptian and Ethiopian) and Assyrian churches did not accept this definition based on linguistic and semantic nuances arising from the words "in two natures" (line 11). In the Coptic and Aramaic languages, the preferred wording translated into English as "from two natures." Otherwise, they are in agreement.

God Himself can not be "a thing."

It is impossible to make God into any "thing." We might consider His Son as The Divine Interlocutor of Eternal Life between Himself and all creation/created "things." The Intention of God is to draw all things into/unto the submission of Christ. Subdued.

John specifically stated that the Word (John 1:1) "was made flesh". (John 1:14) Flesh is a "thing," a part of creation.

God the Word became man specifically to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah 53:1-5

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

God the word united with mankind so that mankind could be united with Him in His death to sin and resurrection to eternal life. (Rom 6:4-10)

... we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection. knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.


We are advised NOT to obsess about THE FLESH of His Son,

If God had not taken on flesh, died in the flesh and raised from death in the flesh, there would be no resurrection and no hope of eternal life.

Col 1:19-20 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Mazel tov!

iakov the fool
:boing
 
Ah! The old "divide and conquer" strategy. First you try and divide me from the Body by calling me a "stray",

It has nothing to do with "you." These are positions of understandings we observe.

From practical experience, when there is an attempt at division, it's usually accompanied by other forms of positions that are also not truthful to the scriptures.

then you will conquer me with your "spiritual insights".

Do I have control over you? I could care less what you believe. Nor do I care to control what you think. I've said many times I don't think we'll have to be carrying Cliff Notes or crib notes on the subject to have eternal life.

"Godhead" is a very poor translation of three Greek words that mean "divinity" or refer to the "divine being" or "deity". "Godhead" is real convenient, though, to give the idea of a God comprised of more than one being.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
 

If God had not taken on flesh, died in the flesh and raised from death in the flesh, there would be no resurrection and no hope of eternal life.

Col 1:19-20 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
 
I still think that where the rubber meets the road we are still trying to explain a Godly existence using human understanding and we are not likely to truly and completely explain or understand it until we leave this life.

ditto. Trying to "box God" is my least favorite theological endeavor. I doubt very much we'll ever come to the "end" of Him.

If nothing is impossible with God and all things are possible, we'll likely see ALL of that and more. Eternity even as a concept is impossible to grasp with our intellect. There is no looking back to find any beginning and no looking forward to any ending.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Mark 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.





 
Attempt at what? All I was doing was asking a question for clarification.

I said I appreciated it. But after posting together for how many years now was it really necessary to try to catch me with the question? Have I ever once stepped on your trinity toes? No.
 
It is not just God's spirit that was "in" Jesus, the fullness of God is "in" Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Your comment seems very similar to the Ebionite heresy which held that Jesus was a mere man endued with divine power and the heresy of Apollenarius who taught that the mind of Jesus was the divine Logos rather than a human mind.

The teaching of the church concerning the divine and human natures of Christ, since the council of Chalcedon (451) is as follows:

THEREFORE, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge
1 one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood,
3 truly God and truly man,
4 consisting also of a reasonable soul and body;
5 of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead,
6 and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood;
7 like us in all respects, apart from sin;
8 as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages,
9 but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer;
10 one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten,
11 recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation;
12 the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union,
13 but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence,
14 not as parted or separated into two persons,
15 but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ;
16 even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us,
and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


The Coptic (Egyptian and Ethiopian) and Assyrian churches did not accept this definition based on linguistic and semantic nuances arising from the words "in two natures" (line 11). In the Coptic and Aramaic languages, the preferred wording translated into English as "from two natures." Otherwise, they are in agreement.

If God had not taken on flesh, died in the flesh and raised from death in the flesh, there would be no resurrection and no hope of eternal life.


:boing

The whole problem with this topic is the over complication injected into what was suppose to be so simple to understand. Children we are not.

God did not have to take on Flesh. A man had to walk in the law perfect, without sin. Jesus came because of what Satan did, and God always keeps his Word and eternal laws. He is not lawless as many claim saying God is Sovereign, and does what he wants, to who He wants, when He wants.

Isa_53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

1Jn_4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

God Choose his Son. His Son had an advantage a man from Earth did not. He had always been with the Father, and knew how things worked.

One Asks, Is Jesus not God?
Of Course Jesus is God. His own Father said so.

Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This only gets confused using a Modalism, or Oneness doctrine. The Real Trinity Doctrine never used scripture, and they only become one by the mystery of Christian faith. Oneness and Modalism try to find their doctrine in scripture, and have to Ignore a bunch of other scriptures.

The other concept man really messes up is what is God.

Look in the mirror, for even to curse man is sin, for man is the likeness of God. Though I am working on this concept when dealing with folks who love to ignore tons of scriptures to hold on to the few to stay wrong.

There is nothing like the Father Though, hence the Lord God and the Lord Jesus mentioned separately in 52 different scriptures.
It's enough to say we are in the god class, but we are not the Father, but like Him. Jesus is the only one like us that had always also been the I Am. Always been here, we are begotten through Him, not the Father.

This World is sick, and we are not helping it out at all. Our kids are taught they live on a planet flying through space at 67,000mph and that they came from the tree's not so long ago. We are not important, there are other worlds like ours and we are just part of this great cosmic mix of space created from nothing.

There is no moral compass, because we have no moral origin or being, but that which a ape would have. Christians say we are humans, ignorant of the fact that the only thing that makes us legal here on Earth is the flesh the encases our spirit.

Now we have a World full of Me, Me, Me, Me, Me..................... Get what you can, while you can. The Love of money is the root of all evil, it's the only thing a ape/human has to show for anything.

We are suppose to be gods, like our Father, like Him, acting like Him. Instead, we are reduced to mere human components of flesh and blood, worthless as it all goes to dust. Science has done it's best to instill this idea that everyone is a part of a big cosmic nothing. An accident.

The Earth is the center of the universe, we are created Like God, we are the apple of His eye, far from the human flesh that surrounds us.

The deception is so far beyond what most believers can comprehend or understand. It won't stay so though. My hope is that it's not going to be to late for many.

Mike.
 
God did not have to take on Flesh.

Apparently, He thought it was the best thing to do. God only and always does the best things so, I figure that it was exactly what He needed** to do. (**God doesn't "need" to do anything but He does anyway out of love.)

A man had to walk in the law perfect, without sin.

Unfortunately, that is impossible. Also, there is no promise of resurrection or eternal life in the Law. The promise was: (Deu 5:31-33) But as for you, stand here by Me, and I will speak to you all the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments which you shall teach them, that they may observe them in the land which I am giving them to possess. Therefore you shall be careful to do as the LORD your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. You shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess. (Live long an prosper.)

The purpose of the law was to make men aware of their sin. (Rom 7:7b) ... I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” And to lead us to Christ. (Gal 3:24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

No one's walk is perfect and without sin. (Rom 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and (1Jo 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

He is not lawless as many claim saying God is Sovereign, and does what he wants, to who He wants, when He wants.

Tell Job that when you meet him; he may have a different view. Everything that happened to Job was the result of God making a bet with the devil. (Job 1:6-12 and 2:1-6) (I wonder if that was the inspiration for the movie "Trading Places.")

But I get your drift and agree. (For whatever my agreement might be worth!)

We are suppose to be gods, like our Father, like Him, acting like Him.

That is a truth that not may people have the clarity and courage to state for fear of being (figuratively) stoned and given the left foot of disfellowship.

iakov the fool
:boing
 
Back
Top