Jesus is not YHVH

[JLB]

I ignored nothing. As much as I would like to reply to them the forum rules will not allow it. It would be considered a "hostile act" (Tos 2.1).

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


You've ignored this scripture and many others like, because it proves that Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH.


JLB

 

[Barth Jones]

I'd be interested in seeing that, and discussing this one further.

Did you catch my answer? Are we still going to have that discussion?

 

[jocor]

Did you catch my answer? Are we still going to have that discussion?

Can you please post your "answer" again?

 

[Free]

I'll try this again:

P1 One of God's names in the OT is YHWH.
P2 The God of the OT is the same God of the NT.
C1 Therefore, one of the names of the God of the NT is YHWH.

P3 The Son is God, as the Father is God.
C2 Therefore, the Son is YHWH, as the Father is YHWH.

 

[Jim Parker]

P1 One of God's names in the OT is YHWH.
P2 The God of the OT is the same God of the NT.
C1 Therefore, one of the names of the God of the NT is YHWH.

That makes sense except for the fact that YHWH does not appear in the New testament.

mazel tov

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

I'll try this again:

P1 One of God's names in the OT is YHWH.
P2 The God of the OT is the same God of the NT.
C1 Therefore, one of the names of the God of the NT is YHWH.

P3 The Son is God, as the Father is God.
C2 Therefore, the Son is YHWH, as the Father is YHWH.

Please provide the scriptures on which P3 is based.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please provide the scriptures on which P3 is based.

John 1:1; 14
Luke 1:35

 

[jocor]

John 1:1; 14
Luke 1:35

Thanks for your reply, but I wanted Free's evidence for that.

Luke 1:35 simply calls him "the Son of God". That does not necessarily equate with the Son being "God, as the Father is God".

 

[Free]

Please provide the scriptures on which P3 is based.

There are many:

Matt 1:23, John 1:1-3, 8:58, 10:30, Rom 10:9, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:15-18 among others. Not to mention that one of the overarching themes of Scripture is that God himself will save his people, that He alone is their savior, and we see that in the person of Christ. This is particularly clear in all three chapters of Titus where both God and Jesus are called "our Savior." It is also seen in Revelation where the same titles are used of God and Jesus--"the alpha and the omega," "the first and the last," "the beginning and the end."

And, the phrase "Son of God," is a claim to deity.

 

[jocor]

There are many:

Matt 1:23, John 1:1-3, 8:58, 10:30, Rom 10:9, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:15-18 among others. Not to mention that one of the overarching themes of Scripture is that God himself will save his people, that He alone is their savior, and we see that in the person of Christ. This is particularly clear in all three chapters of Titus where both God and Jesus are called "our Savior." It is also seen in Revelation where the same titles are used of God and Jesus--"the alpha and the omega," "the first and the last," "the beginning and the end."

And, the phrase "Son of God," is a claim to deity.

Thanks. I was just curious to know if you had evidence I was unaware of. Each reference you provided can easily be refuted, but as you know, the ToS forbids such a refutation.

 

[Free]

Thanks. I was just curious to know if you had evidence I was unaware of. Each reference you provided can easily be refuted, but as you know, the ToS forbids such a refutation.

I have yet to see any refute them, although many have tried.

 

[Jim Parker]

Luke 1:35 simply calls him "the Son of God".

It isn't Luke who calls Him the Son of God or the scriptures. It is the angel who announced that Jesus would be called the Son of the Highest and the Son of God. The angel didn't just make that up; he was delivering word for word the message that God had sent him to deliver. So, it is, in fact, God who decided that Jesus should be called His Son.

God confirms it at Jesus' baptism (Mat 3:17) and again at the transfiguration. (Mat 17:5) Peter testified to it (2Pe 1:17) and even the demons knew He was the Son of God. (Mar 5:7)

I think there is ample evidence that God considered Jesus is Son in a unique way different from believers being sons of God.

That does not necessarily equate with the Son being "God, as the Father is God".

True. John 1:1 does that. I suspect it was John's specific intention to put any question, as to the deity of Christ, to rest once and for all.

 

[WIP]

Whenever I read John 14:7-10 I can't help but picture the Warner Bros. cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn saying, "I keep pitchin’ ‘em and you keep missin’ ‘em!"

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." NKJV

 

[Jim Parker]

Whenever I read John 14:7-10 I can't help but picture the Warner Bros. cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn saying, "I keep pitchin’ ‘em and you keep missin’ ‘em!"

HAH! That's good!

 

[jocor]

It isn't Luke who calls Him the Son of God or the scriptures. It is the angel who announced that Jesus would be called the Son of the Highest and the Son of God. The angel didn't just make that up; he was delivering word for word the message that God had sent him to deliver. So, it is, in fact, God who decided that Jesus should be called His Son.

God confirms it at Jesus' baptism (Mat 3:17) and again at the transfiguration. (Mat 17:5) Peter testified to it (2Pe 1:17) and even the demons knew He was the Son of God. (Mar 5:7)

I think there is ample evidence that God considered Jesus is Son in a unique way different from believers being sons of God.

I totally agree. We were not directly begotten by YHWH the way Yeshua was.

True. John 1:1 does that. I suspect it was John's specific intention to put any question, as to the deity of Christ, to rest once and for all.

That could be true if one chooses to read Messiah into the text of John 1:1.

 

[jocor]

Whenever I read John 14:7-10 I can't help but picture the Warner Bros. cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn saying, "I keep pitchin’ ‘em and you keep missin’ ‘em!"

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." NKJV

Are you suggesting John 14:7-10 teaches us that the Son is the Father? If so, how does that harmonize with the trinity doctrine which states the Father is NOT the Son?
View attachment 8009

 

[WIP]

See bold type?

 

[jocor]

See bold type?

That does not tell me how YOU are understanding the bold type.

 

[Sinthesis]

Suppose Philip asked you to show him the Holy Spirit? You couldn't, yet you could demonstrate what the Holy Spirit is like through your actions over time.

 

[jocor]

Suppose Philip asked you to show him the Holy Spirit? You couldn't, yet you could demonstrate what the Holy Spirit is like through your actions over time.

I totally agree with that! Yeshua was showing them over time what the Father was like. He was not telling them that he himself was the Father. Like Father like Son.