Jesus is not YHVH

[Brother Mike]

Apparently, He thought it was the best thing to do. God only and always does the best things so, I figure that it was exactly what He needed** to do. (**God doesn't "need" to do anything but He does anyway out of love.)



Unfortunately, that is impossible. Also, there is no promise of resurrection or eternal life in the Law. The promise was: (Deu 5:31-33) But as for you, stand here by Me, and I will speak to you all the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments which you shall teach them, that they may observe them in the land which I am giving them to possess. Therefore you shall be careful to do as the LORD your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. You shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess. (Live long an prosper.)

The purpose of the law was to make men aware of their sin. (Rom 7:7b) ... I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” And to lead us to Christ. (Gal 3:24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

No one's walk is perfect and without sin. (Rom 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and (1Jo 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



Tell Job that when you meet him; he may have a different view. Everything that happened to Job was the result of God making a bet with the devil. (Job 1:6-12 and 2:1-6) (I wonder if that was the inspiration for the movie "Trading Places.")

But I get your drift and agree. (For whatever my agreement might be worth!)



That is a truth that not may people have the clarity and courage to state for fear of being (figuratively) stoned and given the left foot of disfellowship.

iakov the fool

Yes, It's impossible for a man to have walked perfect. So, you send God the Son, who has always been, and knows the Father. His view of Earth is far different than any man born on Earth. He has a flesh body, so Satan can't scream foul.

As for Job. What bet are we making with the Devil here? God said choose death or life, blessing or cursing that your seed may live. Job's kids were murdered by Satan. Scripture does not change, God does not change, so the only logical conclusion a person could make comparing scriptures is that Job messed up, not some deal with the devil by God. Otherwise, God has committed extreme evil here.

But we know God did not do that. In fact, God would have to violate a whole bunch of other things He had said in His Word, if He had made some deal with the devil.

Elihu:
Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
(Job 34:10-12 KJV)

Now if God made a deal with the devil against someone that obeyed him and God considered perfect in His ways, that ended up in the man suffering grief and the death of His children, then that would be classified as Wicked.

Believers come and say, "Ya, but God Gave Job double, after God did evil to Him, so it's all good."

OK, so let's just murder your kids with the promise of you getting double kids later. You OK with that? Less mouths to feed, right?

NO, No, No and NO.

That is not at all how it went down. There was no deal, there was no bet. There was the liar Satan, and God watching Satan mess with Job. Satan's theme He sold Job was Curse God and die.

If something bad happens Job, and God does not help, would you curse God?
You know Job, if you curse God, then you just die.
What about your kids Job, they party, they drink, they could be cursing God in their heart.
your kids are going to die Job. You better start sacrificing for them, just in case. You could lose them.
God will kill those kids outright Job, God may have made you rich through obeying Him, but don't think for a second God won't take it all away, and kill your children.

Off Job Goes, full of fear of loose and says continually it may be my kids cursed God in their heart, I don't want God to kill them.

What about the Sabeans and Chaladeans Job? You know if they attack, not a thing you can do about it. You will have a loss of everything when that day comes. You better prepare, better not rest to much. They are coming Job, nothing you can do but continue to be afraid and prepare.

Well, that will all be for nothing anyway Job, if you get sick and can't take care of your estate. Then what you going to do Job?

God is watching the whole thing.

Satan shows up, God knows why He is there.
Satan says, You Hurt Job God, I bet Job will claim you did him wrong. (Cursed is actually Barak in Hebrew and means to salute or bless back, it's not like Curse as in other Hebrew words used. Why it was translated curse is a mystery to me)

Hurt Him God, Watch what Job Does.

God says, No stupid, I am not hurting Job, Pay attention, Job had been listening to you, he is in your power.

For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
(Job 3:25-26 KJV)

God is not going to over ride what He said about having Fear, He is not going to just violate his own Word and stop Satan. This is what Elihu was talking about. We are told 58 times in scripture to fear not for a reason.

It was fear of the wind that stopped Peter's greatest Miracle so far. We can't pretend that Job's fears had nothing to do with giving the devil a place.

Curse God. Even Job's wife said, why hold onto your integrity, curse God and die. The whole lie Satan Sold to Job, and it cost him acting on what the devil was saying to him.

Little God's:

Since the term God in scripture is not associated with power, but a class of something....... False god's, Satan god of this World, so on. Just meaning immortal being (Deity) Theos.

Then to be god like the Father God, would be a nature of something. The World Fights this, NASA is Hell bent making sure people don't know this, and sadly christains have joined the forces of evil to say this.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(Mat 5:41-48 KJV)

God loves, and gives everything.
God takes no thought of wrong done to Him.
God turns the other cheek.
God blesses those who hate him.
God loved those that did not love him.

If your not like God, then you have no chance to match and be like Him.

Even if man does not have the law, He still is without excuse because the man would take up the nature of the one he was created in the same similitude. GOD.

Now if you look at Quantum physics. and the Slit Experiment. It's mind boggling what they found. It's hated, but can't be disproven. Even Einstein tried but failed, calling it the spooky thing.

Thank you for taking time to read if you have gotten this far my Brother. Be blessed, great things are coming for us.

Mike.

 

[Jim Parker]

As for Job. What bet are we making with the Devil here?

Did you read the verses I referenced? The "bet" is spelled out there.

so the only logical conclusion a person could make comparing scriptures is that Job messed up,

The scriptures specifically say that Job was blameless.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

Job 2:3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

Now if God made a deal with the devil against someone that obeyed him and God considered perfect in His ways, that ended up in the man suffering grief and the death of His children, then that would be classified as Wicked.

That was Job's complaint and God's statement, that God destroyed him without cause. (Job 2:3)

Then to be god like the Father God, would be a nature of something.

We remain by nature creatures and do not change our nature from creature to divine. We partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by being "in Christ" and by being dwelt by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My understanding is that believers are a new creation of God-bearing human beings of whom Jesus was the firstborn from the dead. That's my best shot.

iakov the fool



Verses quoted are NKJV.

 

[Brother Mike]

Did you read the verses I referenced? The "bet" is spelled out there.



The scriptures specifically say that Job was blameless.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

Job 2:3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”



That was Job's complaint and God's statement, that God destroyed him without cause. (Job 2:3)



We remain by nature creatures and do not change our nature from creature to divine. We partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by being "in Christ" and by being dwelt by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My understanding is that believers are a new creation of God-bearing human beings of whom Jesus was the firstborn from the dead. That's my best shot.

iakov the fool



Verses quoted are NKJV.

Yes, Job was blameless, God thought so. Job 2:3 though needs to be read a bit different. The KJV sort of gives the indication that God is destroying Job without cause.

Of Course God would destroy nobody without cause, or even unjustly.

Then GOD said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job? There's no one quite like him, is there--honest and true to his word, totally devoted to God and hating evil? He still has a firm grip on his integrity! You tried to trick me into destroying him, but it didn't work."
(Job 2:3 MSG)

This translation is not super Great. I don't think Satan would have any delusion that He could trick God, but the Hebrew moved against means to entice, or pull.

1) to incite, allure, instigate, entice
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to incite (to a request)
1a2) to allure, lure
1a3) to instigate (bad sense)

In other Words, God is telling Satan your trying to get me to harm job without any cause. God saw no reason to harm Job at all, nor would God make a deal with a liar who can not even tell a bit of truth. (John 8:44)

Job is a story about a believer who knew God as the Almighty, but did not know God as the protector and God of Love. Job served God out of awesome fear. Doing good works, obedience, is a key to being blessed, but fear and lack of faith in God's goodness like His Children is siding with the devil.

We are warned over 58 times to fear not.
48 times to be not afraid.
and many times to take no thought, be careful for nothing, but think on these things.

Anti-faith in God is fear. Fear is actually faith in the devil's ability to bring to pass something you do not want to happen in the future. Fear is faith in a future event.

This was Job's issue. It's why Jesus got upset when fear showed up or unbelief. Jesus knew what unbelief was connected with.

Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Job said only those things He feared came on him. One would have to at least wonder in comparing all the scriptures about fear, if this had anything to do with why God stepped aside and let Satan do what He wanted.

If God just steps in and stops Satan, then God has to violate His own Word. That day will never happen for Satan.

Now if Job was Like David, things would have been much different. David would have asked the Lord if He should go after the Chaladeans and Sabeans and take all back that was taken. The Lord would have said go, you shall recover all.

Job sat around saying the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed (Barak) be the name of the Lord.

The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee (BARAK)!'
(Job 1:11 YLT)
and he saith, `Naked came I forth from the womb of my mother, and naked I turn back thither: Jehovah hath given and Jehovah hath taken: let the name of Jehovah be blessed.' (Barak)
(Job 1:21 YLT)

Job did exactly what Satan Said Job would do, but the thing is, Job could have and would never have committed the sin. God knew this also, because Job did What Satan said He would but not out of a foolish heart, but out of a sincere heart not understanding.

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

There was no deal, Satan was just lying and blowing smoke as always.

Be blessed.

 

[JLB]

"God", when used by English speaking Christians, can only refer to the one true God.

So now you presume to speak for English Speaking Christians.

Most English speaking Christians refer to Jesus as the Lord God and Savior.

Here is what Most Hebrew Speaking Christians say: From your website you posted.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Is_Christ_Jewish_/is_christ_jewish_.html


This site confess Jesus as YHWH.

He is the Lord God, our Savior. Titus 2:13, Isaiah 43:1, Zechariah 14:5



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is not my own theory, but our Savior taught it as well. In John 10:34-36;

Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (Hebrew "elohim", Greek "theoi")?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say you of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?

You left out what Jesus said that caused the Jews to want to stone Him, from John 10.

This is not my theory, but are the words of Jesus Christ, who is the Truth.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them,“Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:25-33


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why do we capitalize theos or elohim when it is used of the Son even though the NT tells us he was a man (1 Timothy 2:5)?

God became flesh, and dwelt among us.

He was made a little lower than the angels.

He had to be man, the Son of Man, in order for the sins of mankind, which came through Adam, to be removed.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:12,19

The Lord God, YHWH became flesh in order to take away the sins of the world, for those who believe. He is our great God and Savior.

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


He will come again with all His saints, to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


JLB

 

[WIP]

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From SoF:
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

 

[Brother Mike]

That is not what the Father said. Psalm 45:6, which is where Heb 1:8 comes from, uses the Hebrew word "elohim", not "God". "God", when used by English speaking Christians, can only refer to the one true God. "Elohim", however, can refer to the one true God or to angels, or to men. Since, according to Yeshua's own words in John 17:3 in which he excluded himself, there is only one true God (his Father), then the Hebrew word "elohim" in Psalm 45:6 must be used in a different sense than saying the Son is the one true Elohim. The same is true of the Greek word "theos. It can apply to men, angels or the only true God. Therefore, whenever "theos" is applied to the son, it must be understood in a lesser sense than him being the only true God.

No, we are gods, just like the Father, gods is not used as a lesser sense. We are not some half a cut above a monkey as some believers claim, we are not just Humans with flesh and blood and nothing else. We are like the Father, made in His image.
Even cursing man is bad, because that man is the very image of God. It's like cursing God.

NASA, the Government's and Christians want to rip the divinity out of us. Make us think we are just some creature created by cosmic chance. That we are nothing, just poor sinners living in a ever expanding galaxy full of other planets like ours.

We are the offspring of God, His Children, the center of the universe. We are important, and our nature is like His. Men act like beast though, because they are told they just fell from the tree's not long ago.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If we are not God's Offspring, like Him, then Jesus is not God the Son, He is just a mere Human and nothing more as we are like Him in this World.

So, you don't believe Jesus is any type of god, or like His father at all, would that be correct, because that is what your implying. If we are not gods, created in the image of the Father, then we are nothing like Jesus, and John lied.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

As usual, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua and falsely accused him. He was not making himself God. By referring to his "Father" in verse 30, he was declaring himself "the SON of God".

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
​

So you make the same mistake the Jews made.

Yes, Jesus is the Only begotten Son.


as it is written -

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5-8

and again

And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Hebrews 1:10-13

This is the testimony of God the Father, about His Son:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes, Jesus is the Only begotten Son.


as it is written -

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5-8

and again

And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Hebrews 1:10-13

This is the testimony of God the Father, about His Son:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


JLB

There is no possibility that Jesus is the Father. In Fact, Trinity's own doctrine do not make them one in Scriptures, only by the application of the mystery of Christian faith. There is a creator, the Father, the God of Israel, the Lord God. One Lord Jesus Christ in Whom all things consist. If we read scriptures, it's not that complicated.

View attachment 8018
I am not saying I buy into the Trinity stuff, but you can have trinity if you like by the Mystery of the Christian faith. Trinity keeps all 3 separate in scriptures. You can have your cake, and eat it if you like.

 

[smaller]

Yes, Job was blameless, God thought so. Job 2:3 though needs to be read a bit different. The KJV sort of gives the indication that God is destroying Job without cause.

Of Course God would destroy nobody without cause, or even unjustly.

Then GOD said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job? There's no one quite like him, is there--honest and true to his word, totally devoted to God and hating evil? He still has a firm grip on his integrity! You tried to trick me into destroying him, but it didn't work."
(Job 2:3 MSG)

This translation is not super Great. I don't think Satan would have any delusion that He could trick God, but the Hebrew moved against means to entice, or pull.

1) to incite, allure, instigate, entice
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to incite (to a request)
1a2) to allure, lure
1a3) to instigate (bad sense)

In other Words, God is telling Satan your trying to get me to harm job without any cause. God saw no reason to harm Job at all, nor would God make a deal with a liar who can not even tell a bit of truth. (John 8:44)

Job is a story about a believer who knew God as the Almighty, but did not know God as the protector and God of Love. Job served God out of awesome fear. Doing good works, obedience, is a key to being blessed, but fear and lack of faith in God's goodness like His Children is siding with the devil.

We are warned over 58 times to fear not.
48 times to be not afraid.
and many times to take no thought, be careful for nothing, but think on these things.

Anti-faith in God is fear. Fear is actually faith in the devil's ability to bring to pass something you do not want to happen in the future. Fear is faith in a future event.

This was Job's issue. It's why Jesus got upset when fear showed up or unbelief. Jesus knew what unbelief was connected with.

Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Job said only those things He feared came on him. One would have to at least wonder in comparing all the scriptures about fear, if this had anything to do with why God stepped aside and let Satan do what He wanted.

If God just steps in and stops Satan, then God has to violate His own Word. That day will never happen for Satan.

Now if Job was Like David, things would have been much different. David would have asked the Lord if He should go after the Chaladeans and Sabeans and take all back that was taken. The Lord would have said go, you shall recover all.

Job sat around saying the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed (Barak) be the name of the Lord.

The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee (BARAK)!'
(Job 1:11 YLT)
and he saith, `Naked came I forth from the womb of my mother, and naked I turn back thither: Jehovah hath given and Jehovah hath taken: let the name of Jehovah be blessed.' (Barak)
(Job 1:21 YLT)

Job did exactly what Satan Said Job would do, but the thing is, Job could have and would never have committed the sin. God knew this also, because Job did What Satan said He would but not out of a foolish heart, but out of a sincere heart not understanding.

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

There was no deal, Satan was just lying and blowing smoke as always.

Be blessed.

There are better explanations Mike.

Paul tells us this:

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

What we almost always fail to see is that BOTH of these Divine Acts transpire with each of us.

Satan is not some abstract non-existing external entity, but the evil in our own hearts. Job was, in short, not alone. His sins were no different than ours. 1 John 3:8. No amounts of pious activity could bless the other side of the ledgers. And yes, God does deal adversely with the sin, which is of the devil, in all of us.

Blessing and cursing applies to the same man, whom we view wrongly, when seeing just a man, singular. That isn't the case.


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No one avoids paying the wages that God Himself ordained to the flesh, and the wicked contrariness therein. Gal. 5:17

 

[smaller]

There is no possibility that Jesus is the Father. In Fact, Trinity's own doctrine do not make them one in Scriptures, only by the application of the mystery of Christian faith. There is a creator, the Father, the God of Israel, the Lord God. One Lord Jesus Christ in Whom all things consist. If we read scriptures, it's not that complicated.

View attachment 8018
I am not saying I buy into the Trinity stuff, but you can have trinity if you like by the Mystery of the Christian faith. Trinity keeps all 3 separate in scriptures. You can have your cake, and eat it if you like.

All the "is not" lines are not necessarily accurate either, as these too imply divisions of some sort. It tries to play it both ways. I might prefer the inner circle encompass the entire diagram myself, with God IS and do away with the is not's.

There is for example, no "is not's" provided for here:

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

How are we going to make "is not" lines there? Doesn't work.

As for ourselves, as believers, were it not for the fact of our own "vile body" with flesh that is contrary to the Spirit, (Phil. 3:21, Gal. 5:17) we could perhaps go the same way.

1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

That is why our participation is noted as the "seed" and not the entirety, presently.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is seed, and there is present planting ground. The Garden of The Lord.

Isaiah 61:
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

 

[Brother Mike]

There are better explanations Mike.

Paul tells us this:

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

What we almost always fail to see is that BOTH of these Divine Acts transpire with each of us.

Satan is not some abstract non-existing external entity, but the evil in our own hearts. Job was, in short, not alone. His sins were no different than ours. 1 John 3:8. No amounts of pious activity could bless the other side of the ledgers. And yes, God does deal adversely with the sin, which is of the devil, in all of us.

Blessing and cursing applies to the same man, whom we view wrongly, when seeing just a man, singular. That isn't the case.


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No one avoids paying the wages that God Himself ordained to the flesh, and the wicked contrariness therein. Gal. 5:17

Well, What if God endured with much long suffering the vessel fitted for Wrath. There are reasons people were used as examples who would not listen to God. Judgement does come, so it's not the idea that God just wigs out one day and decides to destroy someone.

I know Job had issues like we all have issues, but for God's observation, Job was doing pretty Good.

My thing is, what if Job was David? Had the courage of David? What if Job had no fear? Only the things Job feared came on him.

I would much rather look at other scripture evidence than to think God has his crazy days at times.

Are we safe to just ignore all those warnings about having fear? Fear Not is in scripture more than thou shall not kill. Is it better to Kill people then,?

Just saying.

 

[smaller]

Well, What if God endured with much long suffering the vessel fitted for Wrath. There are reasons people were used as examples who would not listen to God. Judgement does come, so it's not the idea that God just wigs out one day and decides to destroy someone.

The flesh is slated for destruction/death, because of sin. And, we know that sin is quite attached to the devil. There is no such thing as just man, singular, which was the general observation. Good and Evil are in the same location. And yes, God did set before us both LIFE and DEATH, good and evil. We don't avoid one by choosing the other.

I know Job had issues like we all have issues, but for God's observation, Job was doing pretty Good.

We should view Job just as we'd observe any other person. With sin in the flesh, which is of the devil. There is no man, singular. Paul lays this identical sight upon himself in 2 Cor. 12:7 for example, and in Romans 7, extensively, showing the working of lusts and temptations in his flesh, which are DEMONIC.

My thing is, what if Job was David? Had the courage of David? What if Job had no fear? Only the things Job feared came on him.

David was no different than Job. Howso?

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

That provocation was INTERNAL and a working of the other party who was NOT David. No different than with David's other sins. They are demonic and a working of Satan, the devil in the flesh. God DOES raise this evil up, to resist His Word. That's how Satan is raised up. Where the Word is sown, Satan arrives "in the heart" to RESIST it. Mark 4:15. This places TWO separate entities in ONE location.

We are no different when we come to God in Christ in prayer. We have an evil conscience present with us. And we should have ZERO expectations of God's Blessings upon same.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

A "true" heart is an HONEST heart, even if the conclusion is unpleasant. That is also why this sinner was blessed and justified, because he KNEW he needed God's mercy, because he was a factual sinner:

Luke 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

It is entirely God's Choice to be merciful, OR NOT. If we stand before him as a lying hypocrite, deceived, God could care less to even listen.

I would much rather look at other scripture evidence than to think God has his crazy days at times.

I expect God to always be against evil, even though He created it to be against to begin with. This shows His Sovereignty over ALL.

Are we safe to just ignore all those warnings about having fear? Fear Not is in scripture more than thou shall not kill. Is it better to Kill people then,?

Just saying.

I'd just say, have an accurate picture. Man is not alone in heart. Our sin is of the devil. We should not expect "only blessings" on that basis. We should just as much expect the other side of the ledgers, just as Job experienced.

And, yes, on this basis we have great reasons to fear God. This is the beginning of Wisdom.

Job feared God on this basis:

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

But, Job received his particular evils because of this:

Job 34:36
My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.

When Job saw that God can deal the deck either way to ANY MAN and be ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN DOING SO, he shut his mouth.

 

[Jim Parker]

The KJV sort of gives the indication that God is destroying Job without cause.

Yes it does. So do all of the following:

NKJV: "without cause.”
NLV: "without cause.”
NIV: "without any reason.”
HCSB: "without just cause.”
NASB: "without cause.”
NET: "without reason."
ASV: "without cause"

What shall I conclude since all the translators and scholars of all those versions settled on "without cause"?

Of Course God would destroy nobody without cause, or even unjustly.

That's not what the book of Job says. It specifically says that God destroyed Job without cause.(Job 2:3) And after all of Job's crying out for a reason for his suffering, when God responds, He does not answer Jobs question "why?". (Job 38:1-40:2) God essentially says, "Who are you to question what I do?".

You tried to trick me into destroying him, but it didn't work." (Job 2:3 MSG)

Ah! The Message Bible! An "idiomatic" translation. You might notice that absolutely NO other Bible renders the Hebrew "cuwth" as "You tried to trick me". Strong's does not support such a rendering. So, that rendering appears to be, IMHO, the insertion of Rev. Peterson's personal bias.

People like to put God in a box made of the verses of the book of Proverbs where, if you're good, God will bless you and, if you're bad, God will curse you just like ti says in the Law of Moses.

One of the lessons of Job is that we don't get to put God in a box. He does what He does and doesn't answer to anyone. So we must never think that because we do (whatever) God must respond just like it says He will in Proverbs.

iakov the fool

 

[Brother Mike]

The flesh is slated for destruction/death, because of sin. And, we know that sin is quite attached to the devil. There is no such thing as just man, singular, which was the general observation. Good and Evil are in the same location. And yes, God did set before us both LIFE and DEATH, good and evil. We don't avoid one by choosing the other.

Job 34:36
My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.

When Job saw that God can deal the deck either way to ANY MAN and be ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN DOING SO, he shut his mouth.

We had this conversation before. Ya, we are human and have evil intentions at times. It does not make God crazy, or a God that believes the lies of the devil and makes deals with the devil.
Job got exactly what Job was suppose to get, He did not trust God, and believed the devil.

Yes it does. So do all of the following:

Ah! The Message Bible! An "idiomatic" translation. You might notice that absolutely NO other Bible renders the Hebrew "cuwth" as "You tried to trick me". Strong's does not support such a rendering. So, that rendering appears to be, IMHO, the insertion of Rev. Peterson's personal bias.

People like to put God in a box made of the verses of the book of Proverbs where, if you're good, God will bless you and, if you're bad, God will curse you just like ti says in the Law of Moses.

One of the lessons of Job is that we don't get to put God in a box. He does what He does and doesn't answer to anyone. So we must never think that because we do (whatever) God must respond just like it says He will in Proverbs.

iakov the fool

Ya, no question Job wrongly accused God of destroying Him without cause. In fact Job went on and on about How unfair God is, and not one time asked God for help. Nope, Job just sat there wanting God to show Job what He did Wrong.

I also stated the the Message was not the best translation, but it shows God thought everything done to Job was without cause. God is not doing things without a reason, and God was not the one destroying Job, the devil was.

Your also missing the point of all the other scriptures that warn us not to fear. Job violated that, He was afraid and all that He feared came on him.

So we just ignore all those scriptures about fear because God is going to do what the Heck God wants despite what God said and warned us about?

Not buying it.

Thank you for the respons.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

We had this conversation before. Ya, we are human and have evil intentions at times. It does not make God crazy, or a God that believes the lies of the devil and makes deals with the devil.
Job got exactly what Job was suppose to get, He did not trust God, and believed the devil.

It was never a question of "just Job" to start with, as duly noted prior. 1 John 3:8 shows the basis of God's ILL dealings, and that they are justified, whichever way the chips fall, even in dealing out evil.

We all have a vile body, Phil. 3:21 with flesh that is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

God will deal the deck as He Pleases, either way, without answering to anyone about it, and be entirely justified in doing so.

God is not our sock puppet on a string dancing, to our tunz. Children might get their way a time or 2 by crying to daddy, but at some point things turn the other direction and they have to grow up and take the bad news that they don't get everything they want all the time, and not everything goes their way all the time.

I quit worshipping the bless me only Lord because it was a god of my own fanicful imaginations.

 

[Jim Parker]

Job got exactly what Job was suppose to get, He did not trust God, and believed the devil.

That is not what the scripture says.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Those verses say that Job was perfect and upright; that he feared God and rejected evil and that God destroyed him without cause NOT because he deserved it.

[Edited. Too inflammatory. WIP]

 

[Jim Parker]

It was never a question of "just Job" to start with, as duly noted prior. 1 John 3:8 shows the basis of God's ILL dealings, and that they are justified, whichever way the chips fall, even in dealing out evil.

All we know about Job is what God said about him.

GOD called job "my servant" and GOD said "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" and who still "holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." (Job 2:3)

That is GOD's personal and specific testimony about Job.

[Too inflammatory. WIP]

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

His friends told him that his calamity was due to his sin and due to his lack of faith and that God never destroys a just man who keeps God's word. They placed the blame on Job as you are attempting to do. But God said they sinned by misrepresented Him. He told them to offer sacrifice for their sin and have Job pray for them so that He did not punish them for their false words about Him. (Job 42:7-8)

iakov the fool

 

[Sinthesis]

As usual, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua and falsely accused him. He was not making himself God. By referring to his "Father" in verse 30, he was declaring himself "the SON of God".

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
​

So you make the same mistake the Jews made.

Jesus offended the Jewish status quo by accepting the title 'Son of God'.

Jhn 5:15 - The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Jhn 5:16 ¶ And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jhn 5:17 - But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:​