Jesse Stone
Member
(Post removed, ToS 2.14, disputing staff's actions in public. Obadiah)
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Jesus is not YHVH
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NeutralZone
Member
(Post removed, ToS 2.14, disputing staff's actions in public. Obadiah)
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NeutralZone
Member
(Post removed, ToS 2.14, disputing staff's actions in public. Obadiah)
NeutralZone
Member
Free:
You conveniently ignored Colossians 1:15, which comes directly before verse 16. (Edited, violation of ToS 2.1 continuing to argue against the basic tenets of the Christian faith by continuing to insist that Jesus was merely a created being after being warned not to do this. Obadiah)
Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version
"Who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of every CREATURE:"
A created being does not have the ability to create. Colossians 1:16 is merely informing the reader that Jesus is the means through which YHWH/Jehovah the Father did the creating. Simply put, Jehovah was the power behind the creating. And Jesus himself acknowledged this.
John 5:19 -- New Living Translation
"So Jesus explained, "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does."
NeutralZone
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15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17
Nowhere in these verse's does it say Jesus is a creature.
Read what the scripture says -
- For by Him all things were created...
If He created all things, then how could He possible be a creature.
- He is before all things...
If He is before mankind, then He is not a man, though He BECAME a man.
What do you claim He is, if He is before all things?
JLB
Obadiah
Member
Re-opening now. Please, everyone, be advised that we take the ToS seriously here, and arguing against the basic tenets of the Christian faith is not allowed per ToS 2.1. ToS 2.1 refers to the statement of faith which states that Jesus is God as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Another basic tenet of the Christian faith is that God is NOT a created being.
smaller
Member
Neutralzone's depictions are examples of cutting One Spirit into numerous separated unequal pieces. Under these kinds of postures they are at some point accompanied by various sights of angels, such as Michael or Gabriel's roles in the matters and who all these players are in the drama's, what they represent, how they operate, etc etc.
I think I've heard just about all the angel angles at this point.
At some point they'll manage to cut God in to seven separate pieces.
Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
The numbers of ways the information can be parsed/divided can be rather bulky.
You'll often end up with
God
God the Father
The Spirit of God The Father
The Son
The Spirit of God The Son, Spirit of Christ
The Holy Spirit
and on and on it goes.
Toss in a few archangels here and there and the 7 Spirits of God and the next thing you know there are so many pieces on the chessboard you really don't know who is who.
It's a rotating circus. And this is what people find in non-Trin arenas. Or it reverses hardline the other direction, to One God, period. With Jesus as a lesser separated being and the Holy Spirit somewhere else on the scale, down a notch or 2.
Some of these postures get so ridiculous it's no more than a bizarre fairy tale. Like the millions or possibly billions of separate Big G Gods with their own separate planets and heavenly families postured in Mormonism for example.
It gets just off the wall stupid at some point, doesn't it? Down to where each person just writes their own fantasy novel about the hereafter and supplicates to their respective fantasies.
I think I've heard just about all the angel angles at this point.
At some point they'll manage to cut God in to seven separate pieces.
Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
The numbers of ways the information can be parsed/divided can be rather bulky.
You'll often end up with
God
God the Father
The Spirit of God The Father
The Son
The Spirit of God The Son, Spirit of Christ
The Holy Spirit
and on and on it goes.
Toss in a few archangels here and there and the 7 Spirits of God and the next thing you know there are so many pieces on the chessboard you really don't know who is who.
It's a rotating circus. And this is what people find in non-Trin arenas. Or it reverses hardline the other direction, to One God, period. With Jesus as a lesser separated being and the Holy Spirit somewhere else on the scale, down a notch or 2.
Some of these postures get so ridiculous it's no more than a bizarre fairy tale. Like the millions or possibly billions of separate Big G Gods with their own separate planets and heavenly families postured in Mormonism for example.
It gets just off the wall stupid at some point, doesn't it? Down to where each person just writes their own fantasy novel about the hereafter and supplicates to their respective fantasies.
I did no such thing. I addressed that right at the end of the very post you quoted. I don't want to do your study for you.
(Not sure how you got the text of that post that was removed long before you posted this, but anyway, well played! You're going to have to tell me your secret {just not here in a public thread}. But I still have to remove it as a response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
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A
Arawak
Guest
(Post removed. When you get banned or suspended you may not re-join with a different screen name and continue your violations. Obadiah)
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Wait!
GK Chesterton stole MY saying!!
If you believe in everything
You believe in nothing.
Where are my copyrights??
Sorry for the interruption. I was just so surprised when I read your signature line.
I guess I could add that this whole thread is why it's important to accept the Trinity and why it has to be accepted by Christians. I really do believe that not accepting it creates big theological problems.
Wondering
Radagast
Member
Because that's what the Bible tells us. Read John 1, for example. And in Romans 10:13, Paul applies an OT text about YHWH (Joel 2:32) to Jesus.
In Colossians 1:15-17 Paul explicitly says (in line with the Gospel of John and the Epistle to the Hebrews) that "by [Jesus] all things were created."
Amen, and welcome to the Forum Brother.
Some folks just have their own version of the Gospel, that isn't found in scripture, it's always been that way, and unfortunately it will continue until He comes.
Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
Jesus Christ is the Lord God who will come with the saints.
He is our great God and Savior.
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1
and again
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Ahhhh! Another man that can be humble and just believe the Word of God.
Jim Parker
Member
It's surprising to me that this thread is still going on. (This will be post number 418!)
YHWH (Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah) is one of the names that God used at the beginning of His self revelation to mankind. (Actually אֱלֹהִים ['elohiym] was the very first name revealed at Gen 1:1. It isn't until Gen 2:4 that we are introduced to YHWH Elohiym and we don't find YHWH by itself until Gen 4:1.)
Now we have been given a fuller revelation of God as Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same one God. (in a very small nutshell)
Heb 1:1-3 (NKJV) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,...
And there is more to come.
1Co 13:12 For now we see as in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
This whole discussion has been like two people arguing and saying; "That rock is not the stone." and "That rock is a stone." "NOT the stone!" "IS a stone!" ...and 'round and 'round we go .... when it stops... well, we don't know the day or the hour.
Jesus is not YHWH (in the manner in which YHWH has been presented here or as the name was used in Genesis) but, He is most certainly God.
YHWH (Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah) is one of the names that God used at the beginning of His self revelation to mankind. (Actually אֱלֹהִים ['elohiym] was the very first name revealed at Gen 1:1. It isn't until Gen 2:4 that we are introduced to YHWH Elohiym and we don't find YHWH by itself until Gen 4:1.)
Now we have been given a fuller revelation of God as Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same one God. (in a very small nutshell)
Heb 1:1-3 (NKJV) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,...
And there is more to come.
1Co 13:12 For now we see as in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
This whole discussion has been like two people arguing and saying; "That rock is not the stone." and "That rock is a stone." "NOT the stone!" "IS a stone!" ...and 'round and 'round we go .... when it stops... well, we don't know the day or the hour.
Jesus is not YHWH (in the manner in which YHWH has been presented here or as the name was used in Genesis) but, He is most certainly God.
That makes perfect sense.
Jesus is not the Rock of the Old Testament, as presented in this thread.
But Jesus is the Rock, not the stone.
Got it.
Could you please explain in your own words, what this verse means here is Zechariah. And who it is that is coming with the saints, if not the Lord (YHWH) Jesus.
Thus the Lord (YHWH) my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Why did you translate "LORD" but not "GOD"?
"Thus the LORD (Jehovah) my God (Elohiym) will come, And all the saints with You."
Jesus is never called Jehovah (or, as you like to say "YHWH") in the NT. Rather, He is called "KURIOS" which is translated "Lord."
The revelation of names of God in the OT include; Elohiym, Yahweh, Yahweh Elohiym, El, Eloah, and others. None of them were revealed to be one God in three hypostases.
It is in the New Testament, we are introduced to the eternal Son of God, Jesus (Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous]) who was with God in the beginning and was God and is the second person of the Trinity.
So, when you are comparing Yahweh and Jesus, you are comparing two different revelations, the earlier and less complete and the later and more complete.
You are conflating the two.