Jesus is Presently King of the World

[glorydaz]

Can't believe this debate has gone so far.

What about all the OT Scripture about Christ's Salvation? Afterall, the OT prophets is where Christ and His Apostles were pulling from, the only Scripture written at that time; the New Testament not having been compiled yet until after Christ's death.

What about the events of Ezekiel 40 forward?

What about the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37?

What about the gathering of the 12 tribes of Israel back to the land of inheritance under Christ? It wasn't even til 1948 that part of Israel (Jews only) started gathering back to the holy land.

What about the resurrection Apostle Paul covered in 1 Thess.4 and in 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump"?

What about the "new heavens and a new earth" event that's associated with Christ's reign, as covered in Isaiah and by Apostle Peter?

What about Rev.20 and the "first resurrection" who reign with Christ at the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth?

What about Christ's literal return per Zechariah 14 and Acts 1?

What about Zech.9:10 which is about Christ's second coming?

What about the earth changes that are to occur with Christ's return? (Isaiah 11; Isaiah 25; Isaiah 27; Isaiah 43; Ezekiel 47).
.

Why does any of that negate Jesus ruling and reigning now?
The Word says He MUST reign until all enemies are under his feet.
Therefore, He reigns now.

When Jesus returns, the marriage will be consumated.

 

[veteran]

Why does any of that negate Jesus ruling and reigning now?
The Word says He MUST reign until all enemies are under his feet.
Therefore, He reigns now.

When Jesus returns, the marriage will be consumated.

The matter is not just about Christ having ascended to the right hand of The Father and to His throne. We all know that has already happened. Yet God's Word has a lot more specifics about His future reign over all nations on earth, and not just a reign over His Church on earth today. Christ's Salvation will have real 'substance' involving this earth, even with the heavenly revealed upon this earth. There's many Bible examples about that future state of a literal reign on earth, with wickedness being removed from off the earth.

Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
35 Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
(KJV)

The throne of David is still... literally manifested upon this earth among God's people. If not, then it would mean our Heavenly Father lied to His servant David and to us in the above verses. That's something to think about. Some choose to believe it actually ended with Zedekiah's reign during the time of the king of Babylon. If so, then when did the sun and moon quit existing? It is specifically that throne of David that Christ is to inherit.

Luke 1:32
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
(KJV)

How is it that many forget that throne of David has always been an earthly throne?

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
(KJV)

That's about the events written in Ezekiel 40 forward, the Milennium Temple of Ezekiel's vision, which was also shown to Apostle John at the end of Revelation. That "BRANCH" there is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.
(KJV)

There's a relation and a distinction there at the same time between The Father's throne and another throne Christ is to inherit, and it even involves those who overcome in Christ reiging on thrones with Him. That time is not yet today.

Isa 9:7
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(KJV)

That's the throne of David and the kingdom of Israel which David ruled over that Christ is to inherit. The kingdom of David's time is the blueprint, as it was on earth, involving the 12 tribes of Israel established in their inheritances in the land of promise. Ezekiel 47-48 shows the 12 tribes re-inheriting the lands of promise, with God dwelling in the midst of them forevermore. All this is a marker for Christ's future Salvation which is to have actual substance, a manifesting on earth that has not come about today.

Isa 16:5
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
(KJV)

Ezek 37:24-28
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)

Is that an Old Testament timing event? No. Is that meant only for the saved remnant of Israel? No...

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

That event of Ezekiel 37 about David being established as "prince" over the 12 tribes of Israel, with One Shepherd (Christ Jesus) over them is after the resurrection of all. David is to be literally established in rule over Israel again in Christ's Kingdom to come. Notice specifically, David is called a "prince" in that future time. It's because Christ will be our KING, even over David in that future time.

Has that "regeneration" happenned yet today? Well, does anyone see those 12 thrones of Israel with Christ's Apostles established on them manifested on earth today? Clearly not, but they will be, because what did God say back in Ps.89 about David's throne? That it and his seed would be established as the sun and moon before God. That means everlasting, never ending. David's throne has always been an earthly throne, and is connected with Gen.49:10, with one of the tribe of Judah sitting upon it until Shiloh (Christ) comes. That "regeneration" is about the hope and redemption of our body Paul spoke of in Romans 8, i.e., the resurrection of both the just and the unjust per John 5.

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(KJV)

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(KJV)

Note how that time of Christ separating His sheep from the goats (wicked that go into the lake of fire) is in the timeframe of inheriting that throne, and at His coming.

If one just skips all the OT Scripture evidence about Christ's future reign upon the throne of David, then the NT examples can be interpreted just about any way one wants. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were pulling from the OT prophets about that. We must do the same.

 

[Drew]

Why does any of that negate Jesus ruling and reigning now?
The Word says He MUST reign until all enemies are under his feet.
Therefore, He reigns now.

When Jesus returns, the marriage will be consumated.

I agree entirely. While it might seem counter-intuitive to assert that Jesus presently rules, there is nothing unBiblical about this idea. As you point out, the Bible paints a picture where the enemies are defeated progressively during Jesus's rule. I will now amplify on this through some material that I may have posted earlier:

Many Christians, perhaps most, believe Jesus is not yet king of this world. One argument advanced is that if Jesus were truly king right now, there would be no evil in the world. This argument has a simplistic appeal. However, many texts strongly suggest that Jesus is indeed presently enthroned over this present world. Does the person who denies Jesus’ present reign based on the existence of evil have a point, requiring that we re-think texts that seem to suggest He is already enthroned?

No. This particular objection to the “kingdom now†position is based on an historically inaccurate concept of kingship. To understand what it means to say that Jesus presently reigns, we need to appeal to some model of the nature of kingship. When someone says “Jesus cannot be reigning since there is still evil and deathâ€, that person implicitly appeals to a model where the king instantaneously solves all the problems in his realm. And that, as we shall see, is not likely the kingship model which the first century authors of the New Testament had in mind.

No doubt, the proponent of the view that present kingship is incompatible with the presence of evil will assert that since Jesus is specifically divine, He will be able to instantly and completely solve all the problems of the world once enthroned. In other words, while we can accept that a human king can be enthroned even while there is chaos in his realm, at least for a time, this could not be case for a divine king (such as Jesus).

Such an argument is easily undermined by the fact that God’s grand plan of redemption, beginning with the call of Abraham and climaxing centuries of years later on the cross, was decidedly not an “instant†solution. Was God not ruling over that creation during that time? Of course he was. One is being more than a little Biblically naïve if one insists that any divine rule must accomplish all kingdom objectives instantly.

In any event, the historical model of kingship that was ingrained in the mind of the 1st century Jew was one where kingship was decidedly a project that was implemented over time, and therefore not brought to full consummation the instant the king was enthroned.

In AD 130, following a successful Jewish rebellion against the Romans, the prominent Jewish Rabbi Akiba proclaimed the Jewish rebel leader, Simeon ben Kosibar, as Messiah, giving him the name “BarKochbarâ€, meaning “son of the starâ€. What happened next? They minted a coin celebrating his enthronement with the year “1†on it and bearing the image of the temple.

The temple did not exist in 130 AD. The presence of the temple image on the coin demonstrates that the 1st century Jewish kingship model entailed accomplishing objectives over time. Showing the temple on the coin and indicating a year of “1†indicates the direction that the kingdom is heading – restoration of the temple.

This coheres perfectly with another scriptural theme about the nature of kingship – the twin themes that the enthroned king will defeat the enemies of Israel and rebuild (or cleanse) the temple. These are the two main elements of the Messianic vocation. David was declared king before all of Israel’s enemies had been defeated. And it was only after he was king for a time that he planned the rebuilding of the temple, a goal that was only finally achieved during the reign of his son. Solomon. Was David not “really king†since those goals remain unfulfilled at the beginning of his reign? Of course not. We need to think Biblically about the nature of kingship.

Returning to the matter of Jesus, we see how such a model is entirely consistent the thesis that Jesus is indeed presently king over this world. We too could mint coin with an image denoting the end of the existence of evil. And just as the Jews of 130 AD acknowledged that BarKochbar was king without the temple actually yet rebuilt, and just as David was king before the actual building of the temple, so too can we coherently assert that Jesus is King right now even though evil is still present in this world. Furthermore, this picture of Jesus as king works perfectly with this dense statement from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Just as with BarKochbar and with David, Jesus’ agenda is an unfolding plan.

 

[Drew]

There's many Bible examples about that future state of a literal reign on earth, with wickedness being removed from off the earth.

Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
35 Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
(KJV)

The throne of David is still... literally manifested upon this earth among God's people. If not, then it would mean our Heavenly Father lied to His servant David and to us in the above verses. That's something to think about. Some choose to believe it actually ended with Zedekiah's reign during the time of the king of Babylon. If so, then when did the sun and moon quit existing? It is specifically that throne of David that Christ is to inherit.

I believe that you are begging the question - there is nothing in this text that requires us to think that Jesus' kingship over the world still lies in the future. This text works perfectly well with the view that Jesus is already enthroned.

Luke 1:32
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
(KJV)

How is it that many forget that throne of David has always been an earthly throne?

You are obviously correct to suggest that David's throne was "earthly". And we all agree that Jesus is not with us physically, sitting on a throne. But I think you are taking things too literally with the line you seem to be pursuing. You seem to be arguing that for Jesus to reign He has to be here on earth sitting on a literal throne, the same one David sat on.

Well, where is that throne? Is it "in storage" in some dusty basement in the middle east, awaiting Jesus' return? I doubt it.

I think the gospel writer is referring to Jesus' kingship over the Jews, not His sitting physically on a particular throne. And Jesus certainly does claim to be a king, even 2000 years ago:

You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king....

Jesus also shows that He is a king by following the very template that defined kingship in the Jewish worldview - entering Jerusalem to palm branches waving and claiming authority over the temple (through the temple-clearing action that got Him arrested). In the Jewish mindset, the king reigns in Jerusalem and has authority over the temple. Jesus clearly follows that pattern, thereby implicitly claiming the throne of David at that time.

Zechariah 14 makes the case that Jesus became King 2000 years ago. As we know, that chapter describes a great battle where YHWH personally appears. And what is said early on in that chapter?

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

Now, consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14. And in so doing, He is claiming the kingship over the whole world as per earlier in the chapter.

Jesus is not waiting to be installed as king over the world. He has already been installed in that office.

 

[glorydaz]

Veteran,
Wow...you've given so many verses I'm not sure I can really address them adequately with one post.

But first....
Perhaps we could discuss them one at a time...starting with the verses I gave.

Here's the prophecy and it's fulfillment
.
Not only is prophecy fulfilled, but it's obvious the people were hailing Jesus as King of Israel.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

[quote:1dqxkeds]Matthew 21:5 - Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

John 12:12-17 - On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

[/quote:1dqxkeds]

The church is the tabernacle built without hands
Jesus is the King...far above all powers, and we are his body.
We have a King, with subjects...what's missing?

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew,

I agree with you totally. For some reason I can't quote long posts...or even write long posts because this thing keeps jumping up and my writing disappears. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Yes, I've heard the argument that we wouldn't have sin and evil happening in the world if Jesus was ruling. God's been ruling since the beginning, does that mean He's been doing something wrong? :help
That's just plain silly. The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. The peace Jesus gives is not as the world gives. The believers are in the world but not of the world, and live under an entirely different system. The Lord's kingdom is eternal...we've entered in as new creatures.

Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Our inheritance is in heaven when we will receive our glorified (spiritual) bodies.
That it will involve a new heavens and earth is a mystery to me, but we'll have glorified bodies, so I don't see it being on this earth.

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Drew]

Drew,

I agree with you totally. For some reason I can't quote long posts...or even write long posts because this thing keeps jumping up and my writing disappears. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I had exactly the same problem with my computer! I could not figure out the problem and it seems to have gone away. Others have had this same problem (see the "suggestions" forum). One way to overcome this is to write your post in a word processor (or "word pad") and then paste it into the "reply" window.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew,

I agree with you totally. For some reason I can't quote long posts...or even write long posts because this thing keeps jumping up and my writing disappears. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I had exactly the same problem with my computer! I could not figure out the problem and it seems to have gone away. Others have had this same problem (see the "suggestions" forum). One way to overcome this is to write your post in a word processor (or "word pad") and then paste it into the "reply" window.

Thanks, I'll work on that...it's a pain. :bigfrown

 

[MimilovesBibi]

Drew,

I agree with you totally. For some reason I can't quote long posts...or even write long posts because this thing keeps jumping up and my writing disappears. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Yes, I've heard the argument that we wouldn't have sin and evil happening in the world if Jesus was ruling. God's been ruling since the beginning, does that mean He's been doing something wrong? :help
That's just plain silly. The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. The peace Jesus gives is not as the world gives. The believers are in the world but not of the world, and live under an entirely different system. The Lord's kingdom is eternal...we've entered in as new creatures.

Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Our inheritance is in heaven when we will receive our glorified (spiritual) bodies.
That it will involve a new heavens and earth is a mystery to me, but we'll have glorified bodies, so I don't see it being on this earth.

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Amen.................... :yes

 

[MimilovesBibi]

Satan is the ruler of this world.

[quote:3j0rlshh]Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;

That's a declaration. 'Now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. He didn't say when, but he said he shall be cast out.

[quote:3j0rlshh]Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

See. Jesus calls him the ruler of this world. So if Jesus calls him the ruler of this world, why do you not believe it?

Luk 10:22 `All things were delivered up to me by my Father,

Mat 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

That's right. The disciples were amazed that he could even command the sea.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

God is God of the living, not the dead. Those who he makes alive, he keeps until the resurrection when they shall see the Son of man coming in his reign.[/quote:3j0rlshh]

When he "comes in his reign" will that be the third coming? 'Cause he came back in 70 AD...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42618&p=513270#p513270[/quote:3j0rlshh]


Good research, researcher..... :biglol

 

[MimilovesBibi]

I hope no one minds if I bump this thread.

I have a couple of points to add considering Jesus' rule and reign now.

Jesus told us how he would bind satan so the Gospel could go out.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Do we see the world at peace? No, because the peace He gives is not as the world gives.
[quote="John 14:27":37oxrnqd]Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies...now.
Why? So that the powers of the church might be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10 - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Jesus came as King, riding upon an ass, as predicted.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

[quote:37oxrnqd]Matthew 21:5 - Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

John 12:15 - Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

[/quote:37oxrnqd]

There is no reason to wait for our Lord to rule and reign...He is reigning now. [/quote:37oxrnqd]

:amen

 

[researcher]

When he "comes in his reign" will that be the third coming? 'Cause he came back in 70 AD...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42618&p=513270#p513270

Good research, researcher..... :biglol

Thank you, thank you. ;) :D

 

[MarkT]

Yes, I've heard the argument that we wouldn't have sin and evil happening in the world if Jesus was ruling. God's been ruling since the beginning, does that mean He's been doing something wrong? :help
That's just plain silly.

You say God has been ruling since the beginning. That depends on what you mean by ruling. A man's mind plans his way. But God directs his steps. I would say God declared all things from the beginning.

From ancient times men turned away from God and followed false gods. And God sent prophets to warn the people, but they would not listen. The question is not whether God is powerless. The question is, who is the ruler of this world?

Was Jesus refering to God when he said, 'Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; John 12:31 RSV and, 'I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; John 14:30 RSV No. Of course not. Jesus was refering to Satan the devil.

Satan is the ruler of this world because men love this world and they love the things of this world more than they love God. They don't fear God. They hate God and they reject his Son.

 

[glorydaz]

The question is, who is the ruler of this world?

Was Jesus refering to God when he said, 'Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; John 12:31 RSV and, 'I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; John 14:30 RSV No. Of course not. Jesus was refering to Satan the devil.

No, you're right, Jesus wasn't refering to God. He was speaking of Satan's upcoming defeat at the cross when his head would be crushed.
When Jesus said the ruler of this world is coming, He was refering to the temptation and the wounding of His heel at the cross.
The work of the cross provides the answer for who rules.

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Satan is the father of the unrighteous, so, in that sense, you're right, he takes advantage of their unbelief.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus brought light and through us the light shines on the darkness... illuminating sin.
The Gospel goes out and satan has been bound...unable to stop it's spread.
Since sin and death were defeated at the cross (Jesus being the first fruits), the only thing left is the execution of judgment and the harvest when the Lord returns, .

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, I still believe Jesus rules and reigns...the Word says He MUST until all is accomplished.
He may not rule the way we think He should, but His ways are not ours. For now...we see not.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

 

[MimilovesBibi]

What about the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37?

What about the gathering of the 12 tribes of Israel back to the land of inheritance under Christ? It wasn't even til 1948 that part of Israel (Jews only) started gathering back to the holy land.

Fulfilled already:

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires F4 of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained F5 that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: F6 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


God bless!

 

[Drew]

Was Jesus refering to God when he said, 'Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; John 12:31 RSV and, 'I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; John 14:30 RSV No. Of course not. Jesus was refering to Satan the devil.

Satan is the ruler of this world because men love this world and they love the things of this world more than they love God. They don't fear God. They hate God and they reject his Son.

This is not correct and the error in this line of reasoning has been pointed out to you before.

Jesus rightly says that Satan is the ruler of the world - that statement was true at the time that Jesus made it, before His crucifixion

But for reasons that have been repeatedly pointed out, Jesus replaces Satan as ruler of the world as of the cross.

Now Satan is not "gone" - people still follow Him. But there is only King, not two. And the Bible places Jesus in that position as of the cross.

 

[MarkT]

Was Jesus refering to God when he said, 'Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; John 12:31 RSV and, 'I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; John 14:30 RSV No. Of course not. Jesus was refering to Satan the devil.

Satan is the ruler of this world because men love this world and they love the things of this world more than they love God. They don't fear God. They hate God and they reject his Son.

This is not correct and the error in this line of reasoning has been pointed out to you before.

Jesus rightly says that Satan is the ruler of the world - that statement was true at the time that Jesus made it, before His crucifixion

But for reasons that have been repeatedly pointed out, Jesus replaces Satan as ruler of the world as of the cross.

Now Satan is not "gone" - people still follow Him. But there is only King, not two. And the Bible places Jesus in that position as of the cross.

Nope. Jesus is King but he hasn't returned. When he returns, all things in heaven and on earth will be subject to him. It's nonsense to say all things are subject to him now (if you understand what 'subject to' means) when we can see things on earth are going from bad to worse. People don't have any real knowledge of God or his Son. They only believe in science. They don't care about how God made us. Even some churches have gone after Satan to be more relevant in this world. But when Jesus returns, he will sit on a glorious throne, and then all things on earth will be subject to him, as they are in heaven.

It's a question of authority. The devil tempted Jesus, saying he had the authority over the kingdoms of this world and he would give Jesus the authority over the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would worship him. Jesus resisted. And Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Stick to the facts Drew. It's one thing to say you don't know something or you don't understand something, but it's another thing to go around making stuff up.

We wouldn't have anything like this forum, we wouldn't be arguing, if Jesus was ruling on earth. No. Satan rules the hearts and minds of most people today.

Noah was vexed by the things they were doing in his generation. But this generation is worse.

 

[glorydaz]

Satan is a liar. The kingdoms of men have always been under the Lord's control.

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

When Jesus came, all power was given to Him.
This is when satan was bound so he couldn't stop the spread of the Gospel.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said the devil was the ruler of this world. What is your faith in if it isn't in the Word of God?

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus said the devil was the ruler of this world. What is your faith in if it isn't in the Word of God?

When did Jesus say the devil was the ruler of this world?
Was it before this?

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

My faith is in Jesus and His work on the cross who is....

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Satan merely rules over the darkness of this world...and then only under the parameters the Lord allows.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.