No, we're saved by grace through faith. The parenthesis was added, but it's given more fully here....a couple of verses down.
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No, we're saved by grace through faith. The parenthesis was added, but it's given more fully here....a couple of verses down.
About 40 years of free will teaching in my head/heart. When i read your ( Daz Grub) postings they most definitely tip the scales.
I see in your posts a slight lack of regard for the the sovereignty of God. In no way am i implying you do not love the Lord or do i doubt your salvation.
There is absolutely no lack of regard for the sovereignty of God.
As I said, this was God's plan...not ours.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
glory
No I am not ! I am declaring the Truth.
I agree with that. Where have I said anything about He did not ? You are getting off into another subject.
The point I have made is that if one is saved because of something they did, that voids out Christ work alone as being that which saved one.
Now you have stated that Christ's work alone for the sinners that He died for, does not save them. Did you not ?
BTW When I say His Death, that includes His Resurrection !!
You're reaching a little too far with this one, SBG.
No I am not ! I am declaring the Truth.
The Lord discerns the intents of man's heart.
I agree with that. Where have I said anything about He did not ? You are getting off into another subject.
The point I have made is that if one is saved because of something they did, that voids out Christ work alone as being that which saved one.
Now you have stated that Christ's work alone for the sinners that He died for, does not save them. Did you not ?
BTW When I say His Death, that includes His Resurrection !!
I was very careful in my wording.my words ... I see in your posts a slight lack of regard for the the sovereignty of God. It is there to my heart/mind. That lack, is a lot of the reasons i have my thoughts on free will. Free will as suggested by those who believe as you do. I am not surprised you don't see it i didn't for a million years.There is absolutely no lack of regard for the sovereignty of God.
As I said, this was God's plan...not ours.
We can all end our statements similar to:
As I said, this was God's plan...not ours.
I read 'your' scriptures i read "SbyG" scriptures all scripture is of God.. it is how we read/grasp/feel/think them. The act of pulling them all together is what this is about.
I was very careful in my wording.my words ... I see in your posts a slight lack of regard for the the sovereignty of God. It is there to my heart/mind. That lack, is a lot of the reasons i have my thoughts on free will. Free will as suggested by those who believe as you do. I am not surprised you don't see it i didn't for a million years.
We can all end our statements similar to:
I read 'your' scriptures i read "SbyG" scriptures all scripture is of God.. it is how we read/grasp/feel/think them. The act of pulling them all together is what this is about.
We're to walk by faith not by sight.
When you suggest you were once blind, as I am, and now you can see, you do border a bit on presumption.
I, too, have walked closely with the Lord for a great many years, so I'm unabe to give what you've said above a great deal of merit. If you "see" "a slight lack of regard for the the sovereignty of God" in my posts, then you're not seeing clearly, for there is none there.
Also, I don't post "my scriptures." All of scripture is there for all of us to read. We can only be taught by the Holy Spirit and our understanding is never as perfect as the whole Word of God.
glory
No I am not ! I am declaring the Truth.
I agree with that. Where have I said anything about He did not ? You are getting off into another subject.
The point I have made is that if one is saved because of something they did, that voids out Christ work alone as being that which saved one.
Now you have stated that Christ's work alone for the sinners that He died for, does not save them. Did you not ?
BTW When I say His Death, that includes His Resurrection !!
I'll refer you back to post 217. You must have blocked some of it out.
Also, I don't post "my scriptures." All of scripture is there for all of us to read. We can only be taught by the Holy Spirit and our understanding is never as perfect as the whole Word of God.
Ok i see you do not want conversation with me so i will move on.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
I'll refer you back to post 217. You must have blocked some of it out.
I don't have an issue with none of the verses quoted there, in fact I believe them.
However neither one of them says that believing is not something man does. Jn 6:29 does not say believing is not something that man does, now does it ?
Do you believe that believing is something man does ? When Paul was asked by the Jailor this Acts 16:30
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Paul responded vs 31
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Was Paul instructing him TO DO SOMETHING ?
Grubal Muruch
Member
gm
I know that. But you deny that it is the work Christ did alone, that saves. You teach that man must do something required first. So you teach man is actually saved by him doing what is required.
That is Salvation by works !
No. Christ did ALL the work on the cross, in order for us to receive the benefits of His sacrifice, we must place our "faith" in Him. If it makes it easier to think of our faith being a work, then so be it. Either way, our faith is necessary...
Grubal Muruch
Member
About 40 years of free will teaching in my head/heart. When i read your ( Daz Grub) postings they most definitely tip the scales.
I see in your posts a slight lack of regard for the the sovereignty of God. In no way am i implying you do not love the Lord or do i doubt your salvation.
what do you mean by, "a slight lack of regard for the sovereignty of God??" Whats your definition of "Sovereignty?"
Grubal Muruch
Member
You're reaching a little too far with this one, SBG.
The Lord discerns the intents of man's heart. He alone knows if there is true repentance there.
It's the work of God that we believe.
AMEN&
AMEN
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gm
I agree with that. But you do not believe that those whom Christ died for receive the benefit of His sacrifice, by His death alone. You believe man must do something or he wont receive it. Thats works.
Its the Truth. Believing is something man does. That makes it a work. So you believe in Salvation by works which the bible condemns. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
No. Christ did ALL the work on the cross, in order for us to receive the benefits of His sacrifice,
I agree with that. But you do not believe that those whom Christ died for receive the benefit of His sacrifice, by His death alone. You believe man must do something or he wont receive it. Thats works.
If it makes it easier to think of our faith being a work, then so be it.
Its the Truth. Believing is something man does. That makes it a work. So you believe in Salvation by works which the bible condemns. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Last edited by a moderator:
Grubal Muruch
Member
gm
I agree with that. But you do not believe that those whom Christ died for receive the benefit of His sacrifice, by His death alone. You believe man must do something or he wont receive it. Thats works.
Its the Truth. Believing is something man does. That makes it a work. So you believe in Salvation by works which the bible condemns. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You, left out the rest of my statement, so here it is,"No. Christ did ALL the work on the cross, in order for us to receive the benefits of His sacrifice, but, we must place our faith in Him. If it makes it easier to think of our faith being a work, then so be it. Either way, our faith is necessary...If your going to quote someone, please don't just place a partial of that quote, to make it sound like they agree with you. I'm asking this with respect. And I will do the same for you...
sbg57----I agree with that. But you do not believe that those whom Christ died for receive the benefit of His sacrifice, by His death alone. You believe man must do something or he wont receive it.That's works.
Grubal----As I've made "very clear" Christ did do all the work on the cross, but, man must place his faith in Christ before he (man) receives the benefits...
sbg57----Its the Truth. Believing is something man does. That makes it a work. So you believe in Salvation by works which the bible condemns. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grubal--- Again, no matter "your interpretation" man "must" place his "faith" in Christ's finished work on the cross, in order to be saved. If you want to call that a "work," so be it, (perhaps you could call it a "Spiritual work") it does not change the fact...That, we "must" place our faith...So you and I will have to agree to disagree on this issue... And that's OK...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gb
I know exactly what you stated, and you are teaching salvation by works. You are saying one cannot be saved by Christ work alone, but must do something, in this case, the doing is must receive by their Faith. Thats works salvation and condemned by scripture.
Receiving is action,its a verb. For example in John 1:12
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Now the word here for received is lambano and it is a action verb that means:
to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
So to receive is an action done by man, do you deny that ?
A Spiritual work ? It is a Spiritual work. Now what kind of man can do a spiritual work ? Can a Lost man do a spiritual work ?
You, left out the rest of my statement, so here it is,"No. Christ did ALL the work on the cross, in order for us to receive the benefits of His sacrifice, but, we must place our faith in Him.
I know exactly what you stated, and you are teaching salvation by works. You are saying one cannot be saved by Christ work alone, but must do something, in this case, the doing is must receive by their Faith. Thats works salvation and condemned by scripture.
Receiving is action,its a verb. For example in John 1:12
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Now the word here for received is lambano and it is a action verb that means:
to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
So to receive is an action done by man, do you deny that ?
If you want to call that a "work," so be it, (perhaps you could call it a "Spiritual work") it does not change the fact
A Spiritual work ? It is a Spiritual work. Now what kind of man can do a spiritual work ? Can a Lost man do a spiritual work ?
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gb
This appears that gb is admitting that he believes in salvation by works. A spiritual work of man.
This is condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Believing is something man does ! Even if its spiritually done, its done by man. The word done is the greek word poieo and means:
to perform
It means works
Matt 7:22
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matt 23:5
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Salvation by works is a False Gospel ! Salvation is by Grace through Faith not of works Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Once one enters into the equation something man does, as believe to get saved, grace is denied and salvation by works is affirmed. That is what gb affirms.
If you want to call that a "work," so be it,
This appears that gb is admitting that he believes in salvation by works. A spiritual work of man.
This is condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Believing is something man does ! Even if its spiritually done, its done by man. The word done is the greek word poieo and means:
to perform
It means works
Matt 7:22
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matt 23:5
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Salvation by works is a False Gospel ! Salvation is by Grace through Faith not of works Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Once one enters into the equation something man does, as believe to get saved, grace is denied and salvation by works is affirmed. That is what gb affirms.
Grubal Muruch
Member
gb
I know exactly what you stated, and you are teaching salvation by works. You are saying one cannot be saved by Christ work alone, but must do something, in this case, the doing is must receive by their Faith. Thats works salvation and condemned by scripture.
Receiving is action,its a verb. For example in John 1:12
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Now the word here for received is lambano and it is a action verb that means:
to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
A Spiritual work ? It is a Spiritual work. Now what kind of man can do a spiritual work ? Can a Lost man do a spiritual work ?
sbg57----But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
Grubal-----There it is, "But as many as "receive" Him." You have to "do" something to "receive" something...
sbg57----So to receive is an action done by man, do you deny that ?
Grubal---- I have no problem with that. It's pretty simplistic and to the point... I agree, with the Scripture, we must do something, and that is, place our faith (believe) And of course you'll come back with, "see, that's a work and that's earning our salvation, that's salvation by works." Thought I'd save you some writing...
sbg57-----A Spiritual work ? It is a Spiritual work. Now what kind of man can do a spiritual work ? Can a Lost man do a spiritual work ?
Grubal-----God created man with an ability to choose. (free-will) Therefore, man can "choose" what he will believe. That's fairly simple...Once he hears the word, the Spirit convicts that man of his sin. Man realizes he has a "sin" problem and needs a "solution" He must now, make a decision to "believe" or not...
Grubal Muruch
Member
gb
This appears that gb is admitting that he believes in salvation by works. A spiritual work of man.
This is condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Believing is something man does ! Even if its spiritually done, its done by man. The word done is the greek word poieo and means:
to perform
It means works
Matt 7:22
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matt 23:5
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Salvation by works is a False Gospel ! Salvation is by Grace through Faith not of works Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Once one enters into the equation something man does, as believe to get saved, grace is denied and salvation by works is affirmed. That is what gb affirms.
sbg57----This appears that gb is admitting that he believes in salvation by works. A spiritual work of man.
Grubal-----You might be able to "call" it "a Spiritual act, due to the fact, that after we hear the word the Holy Spirit uses that word to convict us. So therefore, the Spirit "is" involved" at that time of the "process..."
sbg57-----Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Grubal----These are those who were "never" truly saved. Not, those who received Christ through faith...
sbg57-----But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Grubal-----This is, in reference to the "Pharisee's...Who, by the way rejected Christ as their "messiah." By far, not a good example...
sbg57-----Salvation by works is a False Gospel ! Salvation is by Grace through Faith not of works Eph 2:8-9
Grubal-----Yes, Salvation is, by God's Grace (and initiated through our "faith")
sbg57-----For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Grubal-----For by Grace are Ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves (what is, not of ourselves, it's talking about, the grace of God not being of ourselves. Not our faith)
sbg57----- lest any man should boast
Grubal----That's true, no man can boast. Salvation "is" not of works, it is the "gift" of God...
sbg57-----Once one enters into the equation something man does, as believe to get saved, grace is denied and salvation by works is affirmed. That is what gb affirms.
Grubal----Once we place our faith in Christ the Salvation process begins...And that's a work of the Holy Spirit...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gb
It is, and you admit that you are saved by works. Thats not bible salvation , sorry pal. Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grubal-----You might be able to "call" it "a Spiritual act
It is, and you admit that you are saved by works. Thats not bible salvation , sorry pal. Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gb
gb admitting again,that he is saved by his works. This teaching is against scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
gb does not believe that, he believes that we must do something.
There it is, "But as many as "receive" Him." You have to "do" something to "receive" something...
gb admitting again,that he is saved by his works. This teaching is against scripture. Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
gb does not believe that, he believes that we must do something.
SbyG Some where along the road we do do something. George is saved while setting on the bar stool. Does he set there tell death? Nope, he will do something. Something that will announce in some form he is a new creature Christ. Maybe my words are bit off but please read the idea... i have a bit of trouble grasping the very subtle differences between what you say and the other guys here say.
We do act on our salvation, With our salvation. because of our salvation.
Yet i hold to:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We do act on our salvation, With our salvation. because of our salvation.
Yet i hold to:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: