Qasim786 said:
hey can i ask what your opinions of the Prophet Muhammed is and the fact he is mentioned by name in the song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16 where the word 'Muhammadim' occurs. The translators translate it as 'altogether lovely' or 'he is desirable', but you cannot translate names of people, the name should always be retained. the word is there, 'Muhammad' and 'im'. The 'im' is a plural of respect, for example the word 'ela' in hewbrew is 'God' but the word 'elohim' also means God. The 'im' is a plural of respect.
evanman said:
The word you make reference to in SoS is NOT "Muhammadim", it is the word "Machamadiym" which comes from a root word in Hebrew "Machmad" (pronounced Machmawd). It means, "delightful; hence, a delight, i.e. object of affection or desire:--beloved, desire, goodly, lovely, pleasant (thing)."
This is not a reference to Mohamed, it is a reference to the bridegroom--who is the Holy One--The Lord Jesus Christ!
Qasim786 said:
Ok, im not an expert in Hewbrew and i dont know if you are but the name is still there, you just changed the spelling, but the word is there and no matter how you try to pronounce it, you will end up with nothing less than the name of the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him), and the translation of the word given is one of the attributes that we give to Prophet and so we can have if fitting him still. You say it refers to Jesus (peace be upon him), but theres no evidenve whatsoever of it being a reference to him, so the deduction one has to make is that we must go to the hewbrew, and in the hewbrew we find it is a reference to the person who is named, namely 'mahammadim' which has a striking resemblance to 'muhammad'.
Gary: Qasim786, that is a complete twisting of Scripture, exactly what Muhammad did! At least you admit you know little Hebrew. The Jews also exposed Muhammad's lack of knowledge of Hebrew when he claimed to be a prophet. That is why Muhammad went on to murder Jews and try and drive them out of Arabia.
Let us look at the passage....
Song of Solomon 5:16
In this passage, Muslims claim that the Hebrew word
machmad ("altogether lovely") can be translated "praise" or "
Ahmad." Following is the text of the passage as translated in the Bible (NIV):
Song of Solomon 5:16: "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is
altogether lovely. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
Song of Solomon is a poetic love story between the Beloved and her Lover. It is a piece that explores the beauty of a marriage relationship between a king and his wife.
Muslims believe that the adjectival clause "
altogether lovely" can be changed to a proper noun, "
Muhammad." The text, they state, should then read, when translated into English:
"His mouth is sweetness itself; he is Muhammad. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
This rendering, however, begs a number of difficult questions according to the context of the entire book.
- (1) Who are the daughters of Jerusalem? Did Muhammad ever court one of his many wives in Jerusalem?
(2) If this is Muhammad, which of his wives is speaking? Was Muhammad ever married to a dark woman he wooed from Lebanon?
(3) Did Muhammad ever claim kingship?
What, then, is this prophecy saying? The stressed words in the text above are the English renderings of the Hebrew word,
machmad. Strong's concordance defines
machmad as:
desire, desirable thing, a pleasant thing.
So, can machmad signify Muhammad? Wise men allow that when one verse is in doubt it is justified to explain one passage of the Bible by another. The word
machmad appears another twelve times in the Old Testament. Since Muslims are so intent on finding the Arabic name of
Muhammad in the Hebrew word
machmad, it is important that they remain consistent.
Therefore, we have printed three of the twelve prophetic verses below and leave it to you to ascertain whether they fit. (Note: we have been consistent in now translating this word as the long-neglected "proper noun" which Muslims claim it to be.)
1 Kings 20:6 (Muslim version)
"Yet I will send my servants to thee tomorrow about this time, and they shall search thy house, and the houses of thy servants; and it shall be, [that] whatever is
Muhammad in thy eyes, they shall take [it] in their hand, and carry [it] away." :o
:o
Lamentations 1:11 (Muslim version)
"All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their
Muhammad things for food to relieve the soul: see, O LORD, and consider; for I am become vile." :-?
:-?
Ezekiel 24:21 (Muslim version)
"Speak to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellence of your strength, the
Muhammad of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword." :roll:
:roll:
If this mutilation of Scripture seems to you ridiculous, it is meant to be as it shows the quality of the theory behind such an idea. But don't just take our word for it. Look up the other nine references which employ machmad and see for yourself whether Muhammad would fit. They are: 2 Chronicles 36:19, Isaiah 64:11, Lamentations 1:10, Lamentations 2:4, Ezekiel 24:16, Ezekiel 24:25, Hosea 9:6, Hosea 9:16 and Joel 3:5.
When taken to its logical conclusion it makes a mockery of Hebrew grammar.
Why should an adjectival clause be translated a proper noun? Machmad already has a proper noun counterpart, 'Chemdan' (or 'Hemdan', the eldest son of Dishon of Anah the Horite). If machmad should have been written as a proper noun the author would have written Chemdan.
Source:
http://debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t05.htm#4
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