Jesus

[BB1956]

?

Love, Walter And Debbie

The global congregation(church) that Jesus Christ is head of, has God's Holy Spirit. From heaven, Jesus oversees the activities of YHWH God's people worldwide. Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave," a small group of mature elders also known as the Governing Body. (Matthew 24:45-47.) Like the first-century apostles and elders in Jerusalem, the Governing Body gives direction to the global congregation. (Acts 15:2) But these men are not the leaders of this organization. They look to YHWH God and his Word for guidance, and they submit to Jesus Christ headship.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

The global congregation(church) that Jesus Christ is head of, has God's Holy Spirit. From heaven, Jesus oversees the activities of YHWH God's people worldwide. Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave," a small group of mature elders also known as the Governing Body. (Matthew 24:45-47.) Like the first-century apostles and elders in Jerusalem, the Governing Body gives direction to the global congregation. (Acts 15:2) But these men are not the leaders of this organization. They look to YHWH God and his Word for guidance, and they submit to Jesus Christ headship.

Sir, I understand what you are saying, but are you also saying that your global Church of Jehovah's Witnesses is doing these practices?

 

[for_his_glory]

I also looked in the KJV, which is the Bible I grew up with way before I knew of any NWT and I haven't found anywhere in that Version of the scriptures where's it written down in scripture that Jesus spoke about any explicit doctrine of any trinity or there being three persons in a godhead. I haven't found it written in scripture that he said he was God. Like I said It's people who are saying, Jesus is God or was God, and they try to teach it in such a way that the terms ‘Christ’ and ‘God’ are interchangeable. But like I said nowhere in scripture is this true. The only thing I've found in scripture is that it says that Jesus was the Word of God, and that it says that God was in Christ, and it says that Jesus is the Son of God; but it does not say that Jesus was God.

Well, if you wouldn't ignore all those scriptures we have given you that explains this as you are only seeing it the way the JW's teach you. I don't know what more any of us can show you. I will leave you with these same scriptures again and pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to truth.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

 

[for_his_glory]

The global congregation(church) that Jesus Christ is head of, has God's Holy Spirit. From heaven, Jesus oversees the activities of YHWH God's people worldwide. Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave," a small group of mature elders also known as the Governing Body. (Matthew 24:45-47.) Like the first-century apostles and elders in Jerusalem, the Governing Body gives direction to the global congregation. (Acts 15:2) But these men are not the leaders of this organization. They look to YHWH God and his Word for guidance, and they submit to Jesus Christ headship.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah’s Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) they are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15, 1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah’s Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) they are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15, 1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

Thank you, We have heard this somewhere before.

Love, Walter

 

[BB1956]

Sir, I understand what you are saying, but are you also saying that your global Church of Jehovah's Witness is doing these practices?

I'm saying that just as others believe themselves to be in the global congregation(Church) that has Jesus Christ as it's head, and has God's Holy Spirit, Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to be Christians, and that they belong to the global church that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit. At Hebrews 2:12 it says, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee." I honestly don't believe that the only Congregation(Church) that declares God's name or give praise to him are those people in the nation of Israel.

The people who believe in the trinity say the Trinity is “the fundamental doctrine of Christianity" even saying that “Christians are those who accept Christ as God. So the trinitarians don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians. Isn't that saying that they, meaning the trinitarians, believe they are the ones who are with the true congregation(Church)that has Jesus Christ as head, and has God's Holy Spirit, but not the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Aren't those who believe in the Trinity saying all those who don't accept the Trinity as the fundamental doctrine of Christianity are those who are not in the global church that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit?

The point is I understand that other people other than Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to belong to that global church that has Jesus Christ as their head and has God's Holy Spirit.
But just as others believe that way about themselves, meaning that they are in that global congregation(Church), that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit, We, meaning, Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that we are in that global congregation(Church) that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I'm saying that just as others believe themselves to be in the global congregation(Church) that has Jesus Christ as it's head, and has God's Holy Spirit, Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to be Christians, and that they belong to the global church that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit. At Hebrews 2:12 it says, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee." I honestly don't believe that the only Congregation(Church) that declares God's name or give praise to him are those people in the nation of Israel.

The people who believe in the trinity say the Trinity is “the fundamental doctrine of Christianity" even saying that “Christians are those who accept Christ as God. So the trinitarians don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians. Isn't that saying that they, meaning the trinitarians, believe they are the ones who are with the true congregation(Church)that has Jesus Christ as head, and has God's Holy Spirit, but not the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Aren't those who believe in the Trinity saying all those who don't accept the Trinity as the fundamental doctrine of Christianity are those who are not in the global church that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit?

The point is I understand that other people other than Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to belong to that global church that has Jesus Christ as their head and has God's Holy Spirit.
But just as others believe that way about themselves, meaning that they are in that global congregation(Church), that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit, We, meaning, Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that we are in that global congregation(Church) that has Jesus Christ as it's head and has God's Holy Spirit.

We understand Sir, That Attitudes, Rules, and Limitations Of One's Beliefs are Major Factors Here,

Ephesians 1:23 KJV, But The Israel Of God Is The Way We Are Supposed To Live, Galatians 6:14-18 KJV.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[BB1956]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45.

The term "faithful and discreet slave," appears at Matthew 24:45, Mark 13:34-37, and Luke 12:12: 35-48. Jesus is using this parable to illustrate that his followers should always be ready for his return. He assures his disciples that he will appoint qualified men(elders) to provide spiritual food for his followers during the end times.(end times means, during Jesus Christ second presence)

The elder men in Jerusalem gave out spiritual decisions that were difficult for a local congregation such as Antioch to decide. I don't believe that the elders in Jerusalem were controlling Christians, just because the elders in Jerusalem gave this spiritual food to all the Gentile Congregations, in the Gentle nations(Acts 15:1-31) These men in Jerusalem were used by God to give this spiritual food, and the elders in Jerusalem gave this spiritual food to all those Gentile Christians throughout the Gentile nations. So the Jews and the Gentile nations did receive spiritual food from the elders in Jerusalem, when local congregations including Gentile Congregations couldn't come to a decision.

 

[for_his_glory]

The term "faithful and discreet slave," appears at Matthew 24:45, Mark 13:34-37, and Luke 12:12: 35-48. Jesus is using this parable to illustrate that his followers should always be ready for his return. He assures his disciples that he will appoint qualified men(elders) to provide spiritual food for his followers during the end times.(end times means, during Jesus Christ second presence)

The elder men in Jerusalem gave out spiritual decisions that were difficult for a local congregation such as Antioch to decide. I don't believe that the elders in Jerusalem were controlling Christians, just because the elders in Jerusalem gave this spiritual food to all the Gentile Congregations, in the Gentle nations(Acts 15:1-31) These men in Jerusalem were used by God to give this spiritual food, and the elders in Jerusalem gave this spiritual food to all those Gentile Christians throughout the Gentile nations. So the Jews and the Gentile nations did receive spiritual food from the elders in Jerusalem, when local congregations including Gentile Congregations couldn't come to a decision.

But, your governing body is explicit to the Watch Tower society and if you do not believe and follow everything they say you will be disfellowshipped and shunned by the whole congregation. When you compare the KJV we use with their rewritten Bible call The New World Translation KJV you will see how they add to and take away from God's word as even a word left out or added takes away from the truth of God's written word. My sister had to show me this after she left the JW as it is not easy to see how deceptive the NWT is in adding to or taking away from the word of God.

JW's do not even believe in the Jesus we serve and honor. Here is what you are taught to believe according to the Watch Tower as you are only allowed to read that of what they print.


They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

They reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.

These are heresies from the false teachings they indoctrinate their congregation into believing and anyone who does not believe these false doctrines are disfellowshipped and shunned.

The only reason I am giving you all of this is because I am concerned about you being deceived by this occult. Please look up Charles Taze Russell who is the founder of the Watch Tower Society.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

But, your governing body is explicit to the Watch Tower society and if you do not believe and follow everything they say you will be disfellowshipped and shunned by the whole congregation. When you compare the KJV we use with their rewritten Bible call The New World Translation KJV you will see how they add to and take away from God's word as even a word left out or added takes away from the truth of God's written word. My sister had to show me this after she left the JW as it is not easy to see how deceptive the NWT is in adding to or taking away from the word of God.

JW's do not even believe in the Jesus we serve and honor. Here is what you are taught to believe according to the Watch Tower as you are only allowed to read that of what they print.


They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

They reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.

These are heresies from the false teachings they indoctrinate their congregation into believing and anyone who does not believe these false doctrines are disfellowshipped and shunned.

The only reason I am giving you all of this is because I am concerned about you being deceived by this occult. Please look up Charles Taze Russell who is the founder of the Watch Tower Society.

Again, thank you.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Free]

I haven't found it written down in scripture that Jesus spoke about any explicit doctrine of any trinity or there being three persons in a godhead. I haven't found it written in scripture that he said he was God. It's people who are saying, Jesus is God or was God, and they try to teach it in such a way that the terms ‘Christ’ and ‘God’ are interchangeable. But nowhere in scripture is this true. The only thing I've found in scripture is that it says that Jesus was the Word of God, and that it says that God was in Christ, and it says that Jesus is the Son of God; but it does not say that Jesus was God.

Then perhaps you aren't reading your Bible close enough:

Psalm102: 1 O Jehovah, hear my prayer;
Let my cry for help reach you.
2 Do not hide your face from me in my time of distress.
Incline your ear to me;
…
23 He prematurely robbed me of my strength;
He cut short my days.
24 I said: “O my God,
Do not do away with me in the middle of my life,
You whose years span all generations.
25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. (NWT)

Hebrews 1: 5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.” (NWT)

The NWT shows that the writer of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote that Jesus is also the Jehovah that the Psalmist was writing about. So, why don't you believe what is plainly written? Is it because the Watchtower tells you what to believe or did you come to your own conclusion?

Further evidence that the Watchtower wants you to believe things that aren't in the Bible:

Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, (NWT, 2013)

But, is that what the Greek actually says?

Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist (NWT, 1984)

Notice in the 1984 version, "other" is in square brackets to indicate that "other" does not appear in the Greek text. Further, according to the 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, "other" is not in the Greek:

Colossians 1: 15 who is image of the God the invisible, firstborn of all creation,
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,

16 because in him it was created the all (things) in the heavens and upon the earth, the (things) visible and
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ

the (things) invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all (things) through
τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι’

him and into him it has been created; 17 and he is before all (things) and the all (things) in him
αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· καὶ αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ

it has stood together,
συνέστηκεν,

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/int/51/1#study=discover

Notice the progression:

1. The 1984 NWT has "[other]," indicating that it does not appear in the Greek text.
2. The 1985 Kingdom Interlinear shows that there is no "other" in the Greek text, which would have been known in 1984.
3. The 2013 NWT then goes one step further and simply says "other." Removing the square brackets implies to the reader that "other" is in the Greek text.

The question to ask yourself is why? Why did the Watchtower purposely add "other" initially and indicate it isn't in the Greek text, but then 29 years later suddenly imply that it is in the Greek text, when they know it isn't there, as indicated by their own interlinear translation? Why purposely do so when it clearly changes the meaning of the passage, and in the process, make it contradict John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:10-12?

 

[Fish153]

I have never read in scripture where Jesus said he was God. I do understand that there are imperfect human beings who interpret certain scriptures to make it seem the scriptures are saying Jesus is God in the flesh, but I don't follow imperfect human beings personal interpretations of scripture. That's because no one is going to convince me that God is so ignorant that it's impossible for him to inspire men to write down his thoughts accurately. So when a scripture says, "I and the Father are one" and imperfect humans interpret this scripture to mean that Jesus and God are the same person, I'm going to disagree. I can read no matter how many people say I can't read, and I can see for myself that people are taking this particular scripture out of context to prove there belief. I'm not going to agree when people taking scripture out of context to try to prove what they believe. Now I do understand that people have the right to believe their personal interpretations of scripture, or someone else's personal interpretations, they even have the right to take a scripture out of context but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

In scripture some Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal to God, Jesus replied: "Is it not written in your law, 'I said: "you are God's"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?"(John 10:34-36) Here in this scripture Jesus wasn't saying he was equal to God or that he was God, simply because he said he was God's Son.

The scriptures show us that as a son, Jesus ascribed superior authority, knowledge and greatness to his Father. He stated: "This sitting down at my right hand and at my left hand is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father"(Matthew 20:23) "concerning that day or that hour nobody knows, neither that angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."(Mark 13:32) "The Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28) Jesus acknowledged his Father as his God. Just before his death Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"(Matthew 27:46) Then after Jesus resurrection, he told Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17)
Finally, in a revelation to the apostle John, Jesus Christ identified himself as the first of God's creations, saying: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Revelation 3:14; John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.)

So the testimony of Jesus Christ respecting himself while on earth reveals that he was not just some wise man nor was he God in the flesh, but he was the perfect human Son of God. The record concerning Jesus words and deeds served to establish this truth. Wrote the apostle John: "Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."(John 20:30,31)

Jesus never said "I am God". But there are MANY passages that do prove He indeed is God. One example:

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20: 26-28)

Please note that Jesus does not tell Thomas "Don't call me God". In fact, after Thomas falls down and worships him and says "My Lord and MY GOD" Jesus says "Because you have seen me you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". Jesus is clearly ACCEPTING the worship, and ACKNOWLEDGING that what Thomas has said is true.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Then perhaps you aren't reading your Bible close enough:

Psalm102: 1 O Jehovah, hear my prayer;
Let my cry for help reach you.
2 Do not hide your face from me in my time of distress.
Incline your ear to me;
…
23 He prematurely robbed me of my strength;
He cut short my days.
24 I said: “O my God,
Do not do away with me in the middle of my life,
You whose years span all generations.
25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. (NWT)

Hebrews 1: 5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.” (NWT)

The NWT shows that the writer of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote that Jesus is also the Jehovah that the Psalmist was writing about. So, why don't you believe what is plainly written? Is it because the Watchtower tells you what to believe or did you come to your own conclusion?

Further evidence that the Watchtower wants you to believe things that aren't in the Bible:

Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, (NWT, 2013)

But, is that what the Greek actually says?

Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist (NWT, 1984)

Notice in the 1984 version, "other" is in square brackets to indicate that "other" does not appear in the Greek text. Further, according to the 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, "other" is not in the Greek:

Colossians 1: 15 who is image of the God the invisible, firstborn of all creation,
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,

16 because in him it was created the all (things) in the heavens and upon the earth, the (things) visible and
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ

the (things) invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all (things) through
τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι’

him and into him it has been created; 17 and he is before all (things) and the all (things) in him
αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· καὶ αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ

it has stood together,
συνέστηκεν,

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/int/51/1#study=discover

Notice the progression:

1. The 1984 NWT has "[other]," indicating that it does not appear in the Greek text.
2. The 1985 Kingdom Interlinear shows that there is no "other" in the Greek text, which would have been known in 1984.
3. The 2013 NWT then goes one step further and simply says "other." Removing the square brackets implies to the reader that "other" is in the Greek text.

The question to ask yourself is why? Why did the Watchtower purposely add "other" initially and indicate it isn't in the Greek text, but then 29 years later suddenly imply that it is in the Greek text, when they know it isn't there, as indicated by their own interlinear translation? Why purposely do so when it clearly changes the meaning of the passage, and in the process, make it contradict John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:10-12?

Thank you, Free

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[BB1956]

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20: 26-28)

Jesus said at John 20:17 that he has a Father and God who is his apostles Father and God. I'm not going to believe Jesus to be a liar because of what Thomas said. Also Thomas knew what Jesus said at John 20:17 so I don't believe Thomas thought Jesus to be a liar either.

 

[BB1956]

Jesus never said "I am God". But there are MANY passages that do prove He indeed is God. One example:

If it was so important that a person believe Jesus to be God because people say you have to believe Jesus is God. Trinitarians say you must believe Jesus to be God to be saved, so why is it that Jesus didn't say he was God if it was necessary for salvation to be saved that a person believes Jesus is God. The scripture at John 3:16 says, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." This is a scripture written down saying it's the only begotten Son of God that God sent to mankind to save mankind. Exercising faith that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God that he sacrificed his human life for mankind was resurrected on the third after his death by God is how you get everlasting life, not believing that Jesus is God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

If it was so important that a person believe Jesus to be God because people say you have to believe Jesus is God. Trinitarians say you must believe Jesus to be God to be saved, so why is it that Jesus didn't say he was God if it was necessary for salvation to be saved that a person believes Jesus is God. The scripture at John 3:16 says, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." This is a scripture written down saying it's the only begotten Son of God that God sent to mankind to save mankind. Exercising faith that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God that he sacrificed his human life for mankind was resurrected on the third after his death by God is how you get everlasting life, not believing that Jesus is God.

Hello BB1956, I noticed you have not responded to post 147 of this thread, would you please? thank you.

Love, Walter

 

[Fish153]

Jesus said at John 20:17 that he has a Father and God who is his apostles Father and God. I'm not going to believe Jesus to be a liar because of what Thomas said. Also Thomas knew what Jesus said at John 20:17 so I don't believe Thomas thought Jesus to be a liar either.

BB---- You are really making a stretch on 20:17. Yes----Jesus did say "My God and your God". But Thomas is DIRECTLY addressing Jesus after he sees his wounds and exclaims "My Lord and My God". Jesus does not tell Thomas "don't call me God". He accepts what Thomas says as truth and says "Because you have seen you believe..blessed are those who do not see yet believe". There are many instances (starting from the time Jesus is a baby) when men bow down and "worship" Him. Many times. Jesus also forgives sins. Jesus never said "I am God" but it is very clear He is God--look at all the I AM statements in John. I AM the bread of Life, I AM the water of Life, I AM the Good Shepherd, I AM the Resurrection and the Life... It is clear that Jesus is proclaiming He is God. That's why the jews so often pick up stones to stone him because "he being a man calls himself God".

 

[for_his_glory]

BB1956

The New World Translation that the Watch Tower Society rewrote in KJV form compared to the Holy Bible - KJV
I present this to you as I have been working on this for quite awhile today after downloading the NWT to compare the scriptures. I pray this will open your eyes to the deceit of the Watch Tower Society and their teachings about Jesus.

NWT Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

KJV Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(Cross reference to John 1:1-2, 14)

NWT John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a god.

KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(also read John 1:14 as the word became flesh)

NWT Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

KJV Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Notice both versions call Jesus the mighty God, everlasting Father)


NWT John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

KJV John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

(Both versions say Jesus and the Father are one as being part of the full Godhead)



NWT Romans 9:5 to whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ sprang according to the flesh: God, who is over all, be blessed forever.

KJV Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(It's the flesh in whom we call Christ Jesus as being fully man and fully God)

NWT Colossians 2:9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.

KJV Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(All the fullness of the Godhead as all being the Spirit of God as being divine nature that is God)



NWT Philippians 2:5 5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, l gave no
consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture
stake.

KJV Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(Notice the crucifixion as NWT says stake and KJV says cross. JW's reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.)



NWT 1John 5:7 For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

KJV 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

(Notice the difference between the NWT says three are in agreement as, KJV says these three agree in one. The three are all a part of the Godhead that is in Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9. NWT Colossians 2:9 uses the words "divine quality dwells bodily and the KJV uses the words "the fulness of the Godhead bodily".)



NWT Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

KJV Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

(Both are using "the Almighty" as both being God)

 

[Fish153]

If it was so important that a person believe Jesus to be God because people say you have to believe Jesus is God. Trinitarians say you must believe Jesus to be God to be saved, so why is it that Jesus didn't say he was God if it was necessary for salvation to be saved that a person believes Jesus is God. The scripture at John 3:16 says, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." This is a scripture written down saying it's the only begotten Son of God that God sent to mankind to save mankind. Exercising faith that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God that he sacrificed his human life for mankind was resurrected on the third after his death by God is how you get everlasting life, not believing that Jesus is God.

BB--- Jesus DOES say it is necessary that one believe He is God to be saved. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24 KJV)

Note that in the KJV the "I AM he" has "he" in italics. The actual Greek has "I AM" at that place in the verse. Jesus is literally telling the Jews that if they don't believe he is "I AM" (GOD) they will die in their sins. This is in the same chapter where Jesus tells the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58).

You have to realize that the Devil's goal is to either TAKE AWAY from the power of the cross, or to ADD TO what Jesus did on the cross. He "takes away" from the power of the cross by attempting to diminish the Person of the one who was on the cross. The Gospel teaches us that GOD HIMSELF came down to earth (The WORD was made flesh) to die on a cross for us. The Devil seeks to diminish that and state God SENT a created being to die on the cross. He wants to take glory away from God and what God has done for us! BB---you need to believe Jesus is God and accept what he did for you on the cross. Don't believe the lie that Jesus is not God, and that he was a created being.

Even the Jews realized Jesus was calling himself God. Look at the times the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus because "He being a man makes himself God". In Mark 2 Jesus forgives a man's sins and the Jews proclaim "only God can forgive sins". Yes---Jesus did not state "I am God"---but he didn't need to---it was obvious who He was.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

BB--- Jesus DOES say it is necessary that one believe He is God to be saved. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24 KJV)

Note that in the KJV the "I AM he" has "he" in italics. The actual Greek has "I AM" at that place in the verse. Jesus is literally telling the Jews that if they don't believe he is "I AM" (GOD) they will die in their sins. This is in the same chapter where Jesus tells the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58).

You have to realize that the Devil's goal is to either TAKE AWAY from the power of the cross, or to ADD TO what Jesus did on the cross. He "takes away" from the power of the cross by attempting to diminish the Person of the one who was on the cross. The Gospel teaches us that GOD HIMSELF came down to earth (The WORD was made flesh) to die on a cross for us. The Devil seeks to diminish that and state God SENT a created being to die on the cross. He wants to take glory away from God and what God has done for us! BB---you need to believe Jesus is God and accept what he did for you on the cross. Don't believe the lie that Jesus is not God, and that he was a created being.

Even the Jews realized Jesus was calling himself God. Look at the times the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus because "He being a man makes himself God". In Mark 2 Jesus forgives a man's sins and the Jews proclaim "only God can forgive sins". Yes---Jesus did not state "I am God"---but he didn't need to---it was obvious who He was.

Hello Fish153, What is your understanding when Jesus said God Is A Spirit?

Love, Walter