It seems to me if people want others to believe the truth about Jesus and if it actually was written down in scripture, that Jesus said he was God, they would know the scripture where that is written down and give that scripture to them. I'm not talking about a scripture that's taken out of context or some imperfect persons interpretation of a scripture, I'm talking about where it's written down that Jesus said he was God.I'm quite sure if you keep reading scripture you will eventually stumble on it.
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Jesus
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Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Yes after Jesus was resurrected from the dead, he said to Mary at John 20:17 that he has a Father and God who was his disciples Father and God. So Jesus wasn't claiming to be his disciples Father and God.
Nice verses but I don't think some people care to see.
Yes, I do understand what you are saying also, I can see other references like Acts 2:36 KJV, etc.
Love, Walter And Debbie
This is just people's interpretation of these scriptures that they say Jesus is referred to as God. I disagree with this interpretation of these scriptures. But you didn't give me any scripture where its written down that Jesus said he was God. If it was so important that people believe Jesus was God why isn't it written down in scripture. People who believe in the trinity say you have to believe Jesus is God in order to get everlasting life, yet it's not written down in scripture nowhere, that Jesus said he was God. The Bible helps me to understand that everything needed to get everlasting life is written down in scripture. Yet the thing that Trinitarians say, that you have to believe Jesus is God, is written down nowhere. One thing I know for sure is that it's not imperfect human beings interpretation of scripture that gets a person everlasting life.
Yet here's the thing, it's written down in scripture that Jesus said after his resurrection from the dead at John 20:17, that he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. So it's written down in scripture that Jesus didn't say he was his apostles and disciples Father and God.
There is more context to take into account. Leaving out context most often will lead to wrong interpretation.
Of course not. That has nothing to do with the Trinity. That would be the error of Modalism/Oneness.
But it doesn't preclude him from being God.
Jesus called himself God in John 8:58 and he claimed eternal preexistence. The Jews understood Jesus's claims to be the Son of God as claiming to be equal to the Father. Throughout the NT he is implied to be God and has titles and attributes of God applied to him.
It's impossible to have a correct understanding of Scripture and not believe that Jesus is God.
What is written down in Scripture is that one must believe Jesus is who he said he is in order to have salvation. If you have the Son you have the Father; if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father. Without believing Jesus is the one God in human flesh--not the Father, but the second person of the Trinity--there is no salvation.
Hello BB1956, actually, that has been the interpretation of the historic Christian Church (the entirety of it, that is, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) for 2,000+ years now.
I will grant that we bicker and fight about MANY different things (oft times ad infinitum ad nauseam, sadly, or so it seems anyway), but when you come upon doctrines where we've all stood/continue to stand in lockstep together, AS ONE, it seems to me that that should be reason enough for someone (such as yourself) who questions what we teach (in regard to the doctrines of the Trinity and/or the Deity of Christ in this case) to pause and reconsider those doctrines once again.
That the Lord Jesus referred to Himself as God (in both word and deed) was not lost on the Jews of His day (who asked the same question that you just did and then tried to stone Him for blasphemy when they heard His answer). For instance,
John 10 24 The Jews then gathered around Jesus and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, ~make Yourself out to be God.~”
God bless you!!
--David
p.s. - there are a couple more things from your post that I'd like to comment on, but I'll have to do so tomorrow (Dv).
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Apparently you did not read them because I gave no interpretation, but scripture only. If you disagree with those scriptures then you should just tear them out of your Bible. Here is CF statement of faith and if you disagree with this then maybe this is not the Christian forum for you. (not telling you to leave)
Doctrinal Statement of Faith
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.
The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).
We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Furthermore, We believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state. (Deuteronomy 1:39) Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).
The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been immersed in the baptismal waters. Those baptized as infants, whether immersed or sprinkled will not be excluded. (Matthew 28:19).
We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell. They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.
We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell.
We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.
We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.
free said,
"Of course not. That has nothing to do with the Trinity. That would be the error of Modalism/Oneness."[/QUOTE\]
When trinitarians claim Jesus to be God they are saying that Jesus is YHWH God, so yes they are saying that Jesus is the disciples Father and God when they say Jesus is God. The only true God is YHWH, and he is the Father and God of Jesus Christ. Here on this Christian forum I have had many trinitarians that have texted me that Jesus is YHWH God. YHWH God is the only true God and he is the Father and God of Jesus Christ.
John 3:16 says, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
The apostle John said at 1 John 4:9 "By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.
So the apostle John repeatedly describes the Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) But this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Logos or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”(1John 4:9)
YHWH God truly sent his only begotten Son to mankind to save mankind by the only begotten Son of God sacrificing his sinless human body.
Others can deny that God sent his only begotten Son to mankind but there those of us who will not deny that. Saying Jesus is God or saying the Word is God is denying Jesus is YHWH God's only begotten Son that he sent to mankind.
I know that has been the interpretation of the Catholic, Orthodox and protestant churches for centuries now. But I disagree with this interpretation because I honestly believe it denies Jesus to be the only begotten Son of YHWH God.
Whenever I listen to those who believe in the trinity and they say the Word is God instead of believing and teaching that the Word is the only begotten song of God, and I can see where scripture says at John 1:14 that the Word became flesh these trinitarians say it was God who became flesh, this is why they Jesus is God incarnate. But I believe the Word is the only begotten Son of YHWH God, I don't believe the Word to be YHWH God. At John 1:1 which says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," I don't believe when John was inspired to write John 1:1 he was saying, "In the beginning was YHWH God, and YHWH was with YHWH God." So no.I don't believe the Word to be YHWH God I believe the Word to be the only begotten Son of YHWH God.
But, and this is very important, everything John says about Jesus in his gospel has its foundation in John 1:1-18. Nothing he says throughout his gospel can contradict what he states the prologue, namely, that the Word existed prior to creation (1:1-2). And that is supported by the claim that not a single thing came into existence without the Word (1:3), where the only logical conclusion is that the Word must necessarily have always existed. The Word cannot have come into existence, but has absolute existence, just as the Father has absolute existence. To deny that conclusion and say that the Word came into existence, is to say that John lied. Yet, we know that John fully affirms monotheism.
John also states in 1 John 4:8, 16 that "God is love." However, if the Word, the Son of God, does not have absolute existence, then it is impossible for God to be love, since the highest form of love is action between two or more persons. If there was a time when the Son was not, then the God that results cannot be the God of the Bible.
Not at all. Jesus is the only-begotten Son who is also God in nature just as the Father is God in nature, since all sons are of the very same nature as their fathers. The Jews understood that and wanted to kill Jesus for claiming to be the Son of God.
This what you have texted above is not written in scripture. This is an interpretation of the scriptures.
A Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”(New Catholic Encyclopedia)
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: “Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.” And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”
in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: “The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the “Old Testament”] suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”
An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments above. So, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
Jesuit Fortman states: “The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”—Origin and Evolution of Religion.
Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
So, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.
I understand that many people who are trinitarians want me to go by their interpretation of scripture. But as I said in post # 115 there is nothing written down in scriptures about there being three persons in a godhead. Trinitarians interpret from the scriptures that there are three persons in a godhead.
Trinitarians rightly acknowledge:
1. Monotheism
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God
3. The Father isn’t the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit
Those things are very clear and they are what we must make sense of. And the Trinity makes the best sense of it.
I highly suggest watching the video as he goes into the history of the doctrine and explains a lot of what you posted about. The main point is that later, more technical language simply builds on earlier, more simple language. It doesn’t mean that the doctrine or its foundations came about later. The Church has long believed—continuously believed—in the foundations of the Trinity I gave above.
Oh, so now you are going to take the Catholic Encyclopedia over the word of God, wow!!!
1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.
2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21
3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15
Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.
Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Last edited: