Jn 3:5

[Power_on_HIgh]

The King James Bible uses the term “born again” rather than born from above.

At the time Jesus was dealing with Nicodemus, the Holy Spirit was not yet given.
He came to the world in Acts 2, but was already given to the Apostles in John 20:22

So, Jesus was speaking prophetically about "born from above", as this is specifically the Holy Spirit, and was not yet HERE, when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus.

Now, the Cross is raised, ... Acts 2 is 200O yrs ago, and when we are born again, its by the Holy Spirit.

The verse says..."he that has not the Spirit of God, is none of God's.

Notice the verse does not say."he that has not the water applied, is none of God's"

Water is not a part of spiritual birth, as water is just water.

 

[Paul Timothy]

John 3:5 is very much about baptism.
Born from above (Jn 3:3-5)
“Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (or born again in some translations).’ Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.’” (Jn 3:3-5 -NRSVA)

The King James Bible uses the term “born again” rather than born from above. The Greek word anathonen in the New Testament is normally translated from above, although it can mean again. In the KJV it is only translated again in this one passage, otherwise it is translated from above. So this usage which is so crucial to the fundamentalist/evangelical notion of being “born again” seems somewhat dubious.

Jesus’ interplay with Nicodemus relies to some extent on this double usage, with Jesus meaning born from above, but Nicodemus taking it as born again and not understanding how he could be born twice literally. Moreover the born from above ties in with Jesus being the one who comes from above (verse 31).]

A full analysis of Jn 3:3-10
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
- or born again/anew; it involves a rebirth, a second birth

4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
- Nicodemus is thinking of physical birth

5. Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

6. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

7. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

8. The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9. Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood

10. Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”

- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. (Ez 36:25)
You see water and spirit.

Moreover Nicodemus should have understood that on previous occasions when God makes a new start he does so with water and Spirit:
1. At creation – Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. With the flood (Gen 7/8) God used water to cleanse the earth, then as the water subsided Noah sent out a dove “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. “ (Gen 8:11). The dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (cf Mt 3;16)

3. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to make them his people under a new covenant he took them through the waters of the red sea and protected them by a pillar of cloud and fire (the Holy Spirit) – see also 1Cor 10:2

4. Jesus, the new Adam is baptised in water and after that the Holy Spirit descends on him (Mt 3:13-16)

You see, each time water and spirit.

Immediately after this conversation with Nicodemus Jesus and his disciples go baptising with water. A co-incidence? I think not.

So where does that leave
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5)

Clearly baptism with water.

Nope. You missed how John 3:6 explains John 3:5.

Your interpretation is flawed.
Water is a natural birth and Spirit is a spiritual rebirth.
Many people get this wrong because they microfocus on the word "water" and they miss how 3:6 explains 3:5.

 

[Mungo]

At the time Jesus was dealing with Nicodemus, the Holy Spirit was not yet given.

What do you mean the Spirit is not yet given?
The Spirit is active all through the Old Testament.

 

[Mungo]

Nope. You missed how John 3:6 explains John 3:5.

Your interpretation is flawed.
Water is a natural birth and Spirit is a spiritual rebirth.
Many people get this wrong because they microfocus on the word "water" and they miss how 3:6 explains 3:5.

No I didn't miss John 3:6.
Try answering the points I raised rather than ignoring them.

 

[Mungo]

Water is a natural birth and Spirit is a spiritual rebirth.

Jesus didn't say you must be born of water and then born again of Spirit.
He said you must be born of water and Spirit.

 

[Paul Timothy]

No I didn't miss John 3:6.
Try answering the points I raised rather than ignoring them.

You misunderstand John 3:6.
I don't think I said you missed it, just that you got it wrong.

I didn't see you raise a point. How about asking a question?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Now read the explanation in John 3:6.

Why does no one ever read the entire passage as it was spoken?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Jesus didn't say you must be born of water and then born again of Spirit.
He said you must be born of water and Spirit.

In fact that is exactly what He said.

 

[Mungo]

You misunderstand John 3:6.
I don't think I said you missed it, just that you got it wrong.

I didn't see you raise a point. How about asking a question?

No I didn't get it wrong.

 

[Paul Timothy]

No I didn't get it wrong.

Sorry... yes you did.

 

[Mungo]

In fact that is exactly what He said.

Yes - born of water and Spirit. One birth from above

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"

You see - again water and Spirit.

 

[Mungo]

Sorry... yes you did.

Wrong again.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Yes - born of water and Spirit. One birth from above

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"

You see - again water and Spirit.

You are not reading the John 3:6 explanation of John 3:5.

Not "one birth" but a water birth(natural) and a spiritual birth.

Jesus explains Himself and you are ignoring His explanation.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Wrong again.

Nope.

 

[Mungo]

Nope.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

John 3:6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)
What is wrong with that explanation?

It ties in with Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"
Note that although translations say washing, the word translated as washing is loutron - a noun not a verb. And loutron is a bath (and not just any old bath).
G3067
loutron - From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.

 

[Paul Timothy]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

Incorrect... the next verse explains this one. Water is natural birth and spirit is spiritual birth. Or else 3:6 does not fit in this conversation.

John 3:6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)
What is wrong with that explanation?

Water is the natural birth. Your mothers water broke when you were born.
your exlanation is incorrect because you separate 3:5 from 3:6. They are the same idea expressed two different ways.

It ties in with Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"
Note that although translations say washing, the word translated as washing is loutron - a noun not a verb. And loutron is a bath (and not just any old bath).
G3067
loutron - From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.

And nothing in Titus 3:5 is about baptism.
Unless you are saying that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the baptizing.

The washing is the work of the Holy Spirit in the context of the passage. So it is what the Spirit does an not the act of physical washing.

 

[Mungo]

Incorrect... the next verse explains this one. Water is natural birth and spirit is spiritual birth. Or else 3:6 does not fit in this conversation.

Water is the natural birth. Your mothers water broke when you were born.
your exlanation is incorrect because you separate 3:5 from 3:6. They are the same idea expressed two different ways.

And nothing in Titus 3:5 is about baptism.
Unless you are saying that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the baptizing.

The washing is the work of the Holy Spirit in the context of the passage. So it is what the Spirit does an not the act of physical washing.

Titus 3:5 is about baptism.

The washing of regeneration is a reference to baptism in which the Holy Spirit renews us.

As I pointed out the word translated as washing is loutron - a bath.
G3067
loutron - From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.

There is one other place in the NT where the Greek loutron is used - Eph 5:25-26, where Jesus is comparing husband and wife to Christ and the Church
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath [loutron] of water with the word" NAB
(Again other translation use washing).

But loutron is important. It wasn't just any bath but a bridal bath. In Eph 5 25-26 the imagery is of the bride (us) taking a bath before the marriage. This was common practice in the Greek world that Paul was writing to and in Judaism.
"The bride, meanwhile, will often visit the ritual bath known as the Mikveh in the week before the wedding, so that she may cleanse herself spiritually and enter marriage in a state of complete purity."
(BBC on Jewish wedding rites)

The whole imagery is of a washing in water and purification, just as Paul wrote to Titus
"he saved us……, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit".

In baptism we are purified, not by the water itself but by the Holy Spirit. But the water is an external symbol of what is happening to us internally.

 

[Mungo]

Water is the natural birth. Your mothers water broke when you were born.
your exlanation is incorrect because you separate 3:5 from 3:6. They are the same idea expressed two different ways.

The "waters" breaking is a euphemism in our culture.
What is released is amniotic fluid not water.
Show me where in scripture amniotic fluid is described as water.

 

[Mungo]

Incorrect... the next verse explains this one. Water is natural birth and spirit is spiritual birth. Or else 3:6 does not fit in this conversation.

No, water is not the natural birth.
My explanation fits perfectly.

 

[Paul Timothy]

John 3:5 is very much about baptism.
Born from above (Jn 3:3-5)
“Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (or born again in some translations).’ Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.’” (Jn 3:3-5 -NRSVA)

No it isn't. Just by reading the next verse you can see it does not.

The King James Bible uses the term “born again” rather than born from above. The Greek word anathonen in the New Testament is normally translated from above, although it can mean again. In the KJV it is only translated again in this one passage, otherwise it is translated from above. So this usage which is so crucial to the fundamentalist/evangelical notion of being “born again” seems somewhat dubious.

Jesus’ interplay with Nicodemus relies to some extent on this double usage, with Jesus meaning born from above, but Nicodemus taking it as born again and not understanding how he could be born twice literally. Moreover the born from above ties in with Jesus being the one who comes from above (verse 31).]

So now you can speak ancient Greek better than Jesus and Nicodemus.

A full analysis of Jn 3:3-10
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
- or born again/anew; it involves a rebirth, a second birth

YES. The first birth is of water and the second birth is of the Spirit

4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
- Nicodemus is thinking of physical birth

Yes .. a water birth.

5. Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

Must be born naturally(water) and supernaturally (spirit).

6. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

You bracket explanation is incorrect but the other is fine.

7. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

8. The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9. Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood

10. Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”

- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27

And I put you in the same boat as Nicodemus as you obviously don't understand this teaching.

I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. (Ez 36:25)
You see water and spirit.

Now you leave John entirely, fishing for a verse to back your position.

Moreover Nicodemus should have understood that on previous occasions when God makes a new start he does so with water and Spirit:
1. At creation – Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. With the flood (Gen 7/8) God used water to cleanse the earth, then as the water subsided Noah sent out a dove “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. “ (Gen 8:11). The dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (cf Mt 3;16)

3. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to make them his people under a new covenant he took them through the waters of the red sea and protected them by a pillar of cloud and fire (the Holy Spirit) – see also 1Cor 10:2

4. Jesus, the new Adam is baptised in water and after that the Holy Spirit descends on him (Mt 3:13-16)

You see, each time water and spirit.

In you carefully selected passages where water does not have anything to do with baptism.

Immediately after this conversation with Nicodemus Jesus and his disciples go baptising with water. A co-incidence? I think not.

Where do you get immediately?
The passage basically says "later" they did stuff in another location.

So where does that leave
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5)

Clearly baptism with water.

Clearly not. Where do you get this faulty teaching and why do you refuse to see the passage in its context?