Jn 3:5

[Paul Timothy]

That would read:
Jn 3:5 born of water, born again of the spirit.

You are trying to say you know better than Jesus what He was talking about.

But it really says:

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You forget that Jesus went on to clarify exactly what He was talking about in the very next verses.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So if you put John 3:5 next to John 3:6 we have the water being fleshly birth and Spirit being Spiritual new birth.

Both water and the spirit!

Where do you find water? River!

Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Baptismal regeneration!

John 3:22 shows that Jesus, AFTER His conversation with Nicodemus, went to a DIFFERENT location and did some baptizing. John 3:22 does not say Nicodemus went with them or anything of that nature. The narrative just continues.

Why are you pushing your faulty ideas here? Why not have a honest Q/A about these many problems with your ideology.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Born of (both and) water and the spirit not spirit alone!

Thanks

Water and the Spirit... yes.
But the water is your mothers amniotic fluid.
And the Spirit is Gods Spirit.

 

[Mungo]

Water and the Spirit... yes.
But the water is your mothers amniotic fluid.
And the Spirit is Gods Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible does it call amniotic fluid water.
Water is H2O.

 

[Mungo]

You are trying to say you know better than Jesus what He was talking about.

You forget that Jesus went on to clarify exactly what He was talking about in the very next verses.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So if you put John 3:5 next to John 3:6 we have the water being fleshly birth and Spirit being Spiritual new birth.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

John 3:6
What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

 

[Paul Timothy]

Nowhere in the Bible does it call amniotic fluid water.
Water is H2O.

Incorrect.

Job 38:8

 

[Paul Timothy]

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

John 3:6
What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

John 3:6 is a repeat of John 3:5 as an explanatory attribute.
I don't think you are reading things clearly.

 

[Mungo]

Incorrect.

Job 38:8

Ridiculous.
God is referring to the creation of the world not a mother giving birth.

 

[Mungo]

John 3:6 is a repeat of John 3:5 as an explanatory attribute.
I don't think you are reading things clearly.

No, I don't think you are.
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood because he is mistakenly thinking that Jesus is talking about two births.
So Jesus has to reprove him
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”
- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
You see water and spirit.
Moreover Nicodemus should have understood that on previous occasions when God makes a new start he does so with water and Spirit:

1. At creation – Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. With the flood (Gen 7/8) God used water to cleanse the earth, then as the water subsided Noah sent out a dove “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. “ (Gen 8:11). The dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (cf Mt 3;16)

3. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to make them his people under a new covenant he took them through the waters of the red sea and protected them by a pillar of cloud and fire (the Holy Spirit) – see also 1Cor 10:2

4. Jesus, the new Adam is baptised in water and after that the Holy Spirit descends on him (Mt 3:13-16)

You see, each time water and spirit.

 

[Mungo]

Irenaeus was an important early father of the Church of the 2nd century. He was born about the year 130 and brought up in Smyrna and was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Bishop there. Polycarp himself was a disciple of the apostle John, So Irenaeus was a second generation disciple of John.
This is what he said about baptism:
For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, Ch. 34 21 [AD 180])

 

[Mungo]

Justin Martyr was another important 2nd century writer.
He said about baptism:
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

 

[Paul Timothy]

No, I don't think you are.
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood because he is mistakenly thinking that Jesus is talking about two births.

Yes. Nicodemus mistakenly thought Jesus was talking about two PHYSICAL births.
Jesus was explained the difference between a water birth, natural birth, physical birth... and a spiritual birth.

So Jesus has to reprove him

Jesus did not reprove him. He corrected him by explaining Himself.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”
- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
You see water and spirit.
Moreover Nicodemus should have understood that on previous occasions when God makes a new start he does so with water and Spirit:

1. At creation – Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nothing to do with baptism.

2. With the flood (Gen 7/8) God used water to cleanse the earth, then as the water subsided Noah sent out a dove “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. “ (Gen 8:11). The dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (cf Mt 3;16)

Nothing to do with baptism.

3. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to make them his people under a new covenant he took them through the waters of the red sea and protected them by a pillar of cloud and fire (the Holy Spirit) – see also 1Cor 10:2

Nothing to do with baptism.

4. Jesus, the new Adam is baptised in water and after that the Holy Spirit descends on him (Mt 3:13-16)

You see, each time water and spirit.

You have your head shoved so far up your theology that you can't understand basic conversation.
Just read the story as a conversation between a confused seeker after Christ and a loving response from Christ.
I don't understand why you even put so much effort into defending such a weak position as this.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Justin Martyr was another important 2nd century writer.
He said about baptism:
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

So even the early church fathers can get things wrong some times.
Remember that even Peter wanted to build 3 tabernacles and that was a mistake.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Justin Martyr was another important 2nd century writer.
He said about baptism:
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

Nothing in this post says that in John 3:5 the mention of water means baptism.
In fact this quote backs my position more than yours.
If you read carefully there is no mention that the water does anything.
This passage just says that they would go to be baptized but the work was not done by the water, but by Christ.
And the work was done before your highlighted section.

 

[Free]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)

Verse 5 is a further explanation of verse 3. That is, to be "born again" is to be "born of water and the Spirit." So, it makes no sense that "born of water" refers to physical birth. The most natural understanding of "born of water" to Nicodemus is likely that of John's baptism of repentance and perhaps, to a lesser extent, the baptism of Jewish proselytes. The implication of either is that of purification. But, water baptism is pointless without the work of the Holy Spirit.

Is it a coincidence that John the Baptist said, "I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mark 1:8, ESV)? Or, what about what Paul later writes:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (ESV)

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

Or, what of the prophecy in Ezekiel:

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV)

And, then, of course, we have the Great Commission:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

And this is what we see throughout the book of Acts. People come to faith and the first thing they do is get baptized in water.

As a side note, it is also worth mentioning that if we are to understand "born of water" as physical birth, then that excludes all victims of miscarriages and abortions from ever being able to enter the kingdom of God. Maybe some believe they don't go to heaven, but I certainly don't.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)

Verse 5 is a further explanation of verse 3. That is, to be "born again" is to be "born of water and the Spirit." So, it makes no sense that "born of water" refers to physical birth. The most natural understanding of "born of water" to Nicodemus is likely that of John's baptism of repentance and perhaps, to a lesser extent, the baptism of Jewish proselytes. The implication of either is that of purification. But, water baptism is pointless without the work of the Holy Spirit.

Is it a coincidence that John the Baptist said, "I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mark 1:8, ESV)? Or, what about what Paul later writes:

But Nicodemus makes absolutely no mention of baptism, John or Jewish washing ceremonies.
Nicodemus only references birth... so the water is natural birth.
This is your own logic working against your argument.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (ESV)

The word is water not the water is the word.
So this does not refer to baptism.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

Washing of regeneration. Not the washing with water.
Again this is not about baptism but the work of the Holy Spirit which baptism indicates to others.

Or, what of the prophecy in Ezekiel:

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV)

And here we have the work of God not the washing by the hands of man.

And, then, of course, we have the Great Commission:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Sure baptize disciples but there is no reference to baptism doing anything... other than be a symbol.

And this is what we see throughout the book of Acts. People come to faith and the first thing they do is get baptized in water.

References required. If the Acts references are as weak as the references in this post, I do not predict much success for you.

As a side note, it is also worth mentioning that if we are to understand "born of water" as physical birth, then that excludes all victims of miscarriages and abortions from ever being able to enter the kingdom of God. Maybe some believe they don't go to heaven, but I certainly don't.

You are welcome to your personal beliefs but please don't teach them as doctrine.

 

[Mungo]

Yes. Nicodemus mistakenly thought Jesus was talking about two PHYSICAL births.
Jesus was explained the difference between a water birth, natural birth, physical birth... and a spiritual birth.

Exactly. And Jesus wasn't referring to two births but one new birth - by water and spirit.

Jesus did not reprove him. He corrected him by explaining Himself.

Ok, if you prefer that. And Jesus was correcting him because Nicodemus was thinking of two births and Jesus wasn't referring to two births but one new birth - by water and spirit.

Nothing to do with baptism.

Yes it is

Nothing to do with baptism.

Yes it is

Nothing to do with baptism.

Yes it is

You have your head shoved so far up your theology that you can't understand basic conversation.
Just read the story as a conversation between a confused seeker after Christ and a loving response from Christ.
I don't understand why you even put so much effort into defending such a weak position as this.

The position is very strong and a correct understanding of what Jesus said.

 

[Mungo]

So even the early church fathers can get things wrong some times.
Remember that even Peter wanted to build 3 tabernacles and that was a mistake.

It's not just the two I quoted - there are at least 3 more.

But hey - they are all wrong and you are right?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Exactly. And Jesus wasn't referring to two births but one new birth - by water ans spirit.

John 3:6 says you are wrong.

Ok, if you prefer that. And Jesus was correcting him because Nicodemus was thinking of two births and Jesus wasn't referring to two births but one new birth - by water ans spirit.

John 3:6... two births. John 3:5 separates water from Spirit as well.

Yes it is



Yes it is


Yes it is

No. No. No.
Unless you can actually show your work.
Did your math teacher never teach you to show your work?

The position is very strong and a correct understanding of what Jesus said.

Nope. I just poked holes in every argument you made.
And I am binge watching an old series on the computer.
This argument does not even take a fraction of my energy.
So not very strong argument.
Address my argument. Instead of just screaming that you are right.... prove me wrong... using my argument and references.

 

[Paul Timothy]

It's not just the two I quoted - there are at least 3 more.

But hey - they are all wrong and you are right?

I showed you how one of your references backs my position and not yours.
So your cache of sources against me grows smaller every time you bring them up.
So I guess you can bring up another and I could shoot it down for you... if you wish.

 

[Mungo]

Nothing in this post says that in John 3:5 the mention of water means baptism.
In fact this quote backs my position more than yours.
If you read carefully there is no mention that the water does anything.
This passage just says that they would go to be baptized but the work was not done by the water, but by Christ.
And the work was done before your highlighted section.

Really nothing to do with water!
Then they are led by us to a place where there is water
Nothing to do with water?

and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water.
Nothing to do with water?

Nothing to do with being reborn?

For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles".
Nothing to do with nothing reborn?
And they learnt of this from the apostles.