Bible Study Job - Book of Declaration and Transformation

[eddif]

As a side note. The full moon hit the 3rd. Not because of the moon, but because of the light of Holy Spirit in the darkness in my life: one financial deal (money management) has just had some light applied. I am not happy with what I see. Satan is trying to steal my concentration away from the book of Job (nothing new here).

I need a lot of help in Job chapter 4. On a level I am aware that Eliphaz makes a series of false doctrinal statements in chapter 4 and 5. I also know (on a level) that Job answers those false doctrinal statements with the truth in chapters 6 and 7.

Job 4:2 who can keep his mouth shut ( I previously said the prophets). What did Job counter with?
Job 6:3. My words are swallowed up.
By what? Cares of his world.

The rest of you can help search out the following verses.

Job 4:3 Job is tempted to see himself as the source of teaching (you have). What did Job counter with?

Job 6:4 the arrows of the almighty are in me. God is working in me. It is not the man Job doing the works, but God in him.

Job 4:4 your words strengthen folks.
Job says?
Job 6:5 does the wild ox bray?
We do not know how to pray but the spirit in us intercedes (job gives God the glory -- God feeds the wild animals Job 38:41).

Is that enough to jump start some others to see heresy and the answer to heresy. Eliphaz says the wrong, and Job counters with the right (Job 42:7)

Without starting at the end of the Book of Job first, it is difficult to continually point out error and truth. Holy Spirit can reveal good and evil.

Who wants to do Job 4:5 ? It might take 2 verses (?). How does Job respond.

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[eddif]

Very quiet.
Job 4:5
But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.
Job's response
Job 6:6
Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
A person who has fainted is not aware of their senses. Job, however, is talking of subtitle taste issues only an alert person could handle.

Job 4:6
Is not your fear of God your confidence, and the integrity of your ways your hope?
Job's response
Job 6.8
Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!

Job is looking to God and not himself.

The friends twist everything. Job has confidence in God.

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[Deborah13]

I see these verses differently.
Eliphaz insults Job by reminding Job of how he has given wise words to others when they were down and encouraged them in their weakness but now that the shoe is on the other foot, Job can't take his own advice all he can do is complain.
Job 4:4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.
Job 4:5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.
Job responds by pointing out that when things are good the wild ass and ox are content and don't complain, neither would he. But he is implying that if their needs weren't met they would complain and he is justified in complaining of his discomfort as well. The egg without salt is like his life, it has lost it's salt and has no flavor left.
Job 6:5 Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
Job 6:6 Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?

I agree with you about the next verses. 4:6 and 6:8.

Job's one desire is to die so his suffering will end.

This friend, Eliphaz, had heard Job encouraging others and instead of doing the same for Job, all he did was criticize him. It gets worse!

 

[eddif]

I see these verses differently.
Eliphaz insults Job by reminding Job of how he has given wise words to others when they were down and encouraged them in their weakness but now that the shoe is on the other foot, Job can't take his own advice all he can do is complain.
Job 4:4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.
Job 4:5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.
Job responds by pointing out that when things are good the wild ass and ox are content and don't complain, neither would he. But he is implying that if their needs weren't met they would complain and he is justified in complaining of his discomfort as well. The egg without salt is like his life, it has lost it's salt and has no flavor left.
Job 6:5 Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
Job 6:6 Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?

I agree with you about the next verses. 4:6 and 6:8.

Job's one desire is to die so his suffering will end.

This friend, Eliphaz, had heard Job encouraging others and instead of doing the same for Job, all he did was criticize him. It gets worse!

Good a challenge.

You seem to be looking at this as if these are two peers talking. Think of the background: Satan has talked to God, and left God's presence with the intention of wrecking Job.

Think how Eve was encouraged to doubt the statements of God (you reckon you will really die, or will you get smart like God).

Satan used the serpent in the garden, and the friends in Job's life. When Peter said not so Lord (regarding Jesus telling he must suffer and die). Jesus said sweetly ? (Get the behind me satan). Matthew 16:23 Jesus recognized the words of Peter were from satan and not Peter. No peers talking, but Eliphaz speaking under the control of the evil one.

By starting at the end of the Book of Job, we know that Job is correct and friends are not speaking the truth. From the first chapters we know satan is trying to prove the deceleration of God about Job's righteousness wrong.

Saiid another way, (remember the suffering servant ?) Job under the inspiration of God is uttering the words of God (Peter saying thou art the Christ ....). IMHO, this is a battle way beyond flesh and blood. ( I spoke of things I knew not --- not his flesh speaking). If we think our intellect is speaking, we are what? Maybe self righteous. If we realize Jesus has planted the word in our hearts; we realize our errors and his power.

Ok don't feel attacked. I know certain things have to come out of the study. Thanks so much for making comments. Bible study should be about bible. I wonder if Job's desire was to complete his learning / relationship with God? The wife said die. We are eternal we may feel forsaken in the flesh, but Jesus bore the forsaken for us on the cross. He bore our sickness by his beating he endured.

Your turn. Peer. You bless me all the time.

The jerk from Mississippi
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[eddif]

Job 4:7
Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?
Job responded
Job 6:10. (A part)
Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
(If we confess sins according to scripture)(if we say we have no sin we are a liar).
Job 6;11 (B part)
What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?

Job trusts in God for eternal life. Eliphaz is looking for physical but Job eternal strength .

At any time I can fail to connect the verses correctly. A &B parts are a challenge I missed verse 7 in chapter 6.

These here Mosquitos (skiters) is distracting.(flat tires etc.). LOL
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[eddif]

Job 4:8
Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Job's answer
Read bold section first.
Psalms 73:3
For I was envious at the foolish,when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
5 They are not in trouble as othermen; neither are they plagued likeother men.
6 Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7 Their eye bulges from fatness; The imaginations of their heart run riot.
16 When I thought to know this, it wastoo painful for me;
17 till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
(Swept away with terrors in other translations).
So now this should make sense.
Now Job's words.
Job 6:15
My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
(Other translations use wadi for stream)
Wadi is a dry river bed that floods during rain but just disappears suddenly.

A great heresy to believe Eliphaz. The wicked reap prosperity in this life, but go suddenly into hell. Again Job speaks truth and friends do not speak truth.

I will expand this more later. This is complex.

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[Deborah13]

As far, so good.
Thanks for the explanation of the wadi.

 

[eddif]

As far, so good.
Thanks for the explanation of the wadi.

Thanks for your prayers. You can jump in at any time. Of course who can tell where we are going. LOL

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[eddif]

Job 4:9
By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

Really? I thought the father sent his only begotten son to fie for sins (?). The father wants a people and had made a way for salvation.

Job's answer
Job 6:23
Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Redemption comes through repentance and understanding the work of Christ Jesus. All this is in symbol form.

Is there a hell to be? Yes. Is there redemption to be provided ? Yes. Are the teeth of the roaring lion broken? Yes. I will see if I can sort through the verses. Any help out there?


The wisdom sought later by the Queen of Sheba is possibly here in prophetic form.

I am tuckered right now.

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[eddif]

I thought I would do chapter 5 verse by verse.
Now I find that I must generalize. Eliphaz Is really tough on mankind. God made man in the image of himself.
Job 4:20
They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

The hairs of our head are numbered.
Matthew 10:30
...........
Job 5:4
His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither is there any to deliver them.

Because we read the end of Job first, we know Job's dead children are safe. We are safe because Jesus cared enough to die for our sins.
........
Job 5:7
Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

Eliphaz concentrates on birth, but God concentrates on creating / making man. God gave man dominion over the garden. Man was made with good things in mind.
Genesis 1:28
............
Job 5:26
Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.

Eliphaz stated earlier that a good man never suffers, and now he says a good man will live out his life. Jesus suffered and died early.
Isaiah 53:8
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
.........
Job 7 details the suffering of Jesus and even ties his life (it seems) to Jonah. It appears that Job describes the crucification and burial of Jesus through symbols.
Job 7:5
My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

Jesus was beat beyond recognition.
Isaiah 52;14
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Job 7:12
Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?

This is Jesus saying (my God why have thy forsaken me).
.........

Just as Jonah prayed from the depths of the sea; Jesus prayed to be raised (Father and Holy Spirit were involved)

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Jesus went into the grave, but when thy sought him he was raised from the dead and gone. Only angels were there to tell the story.

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[Malachi]

The book of Job is not all about just Job the man.
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That's for sure. It is one of the most significant books in the Bible, giving us an insight into God's mysterious ways. What many of us fail to grasp is that even while Job and his friends were discoursing about the reasons why Job was going through *Hell* on earth, the things which were being said about God and man (and man's condition) were all true. What was not true was the presumption by Job's friends that it was the sins of Job that caused his calamities.

It would be impossible to explore the depths of Job in a forum setting, but the question we must all ask is "How did Job and his friends acquire the wisdom and knowledge that they had?" Was each of those men a prophet receiving Divine revelations? Job was not even an Israelite, yet he was fully cognizant of matters which God had revealed to Israel. In fact, he spoke of things which were not even revealed to Israel. We can even see Job as a type of Christ in his sufferings and humiliation, followed by his restoration and his magnificence afterwards.

 

[eddif]

What many of us fail to grasp is that even while Job and his friends were discoursing about the reasons why Job was going through *Hell* on earth, the things which were being said about God and man (and man's condition) were all true.

I really want to consider that what was said about God:
1 what the friends said was false.
2 what Job said was true

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

The long introduction for this thread covered these points:
1 you can not believe what the friends say. (About God or IMHO Job). God declared Job righteous, but the friends declared him self righteous.

2 No matter what our buddies say Job spoke the truth . We may not agree with his theology , but God said he spoke the truth. Godly fear must be ok. Self assessment is ok.

IMHO, we can forget all the popular fear sayings , and the man is born to trouble statement.

Read the introduction .

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[eddif]

"How did Job and his friends acquire the wisdom and knowledge that they had?"

His friends evidently did not have wisdom.
Job 42:7-8

The law was added later because of transgression
Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law was to slow sin till Christ be come. The law broken allowed sin to progress, and dispersion took over. (My words).

Man knew more about God before the continual decline of sinful man caused traditions of man to be spoken above the word of God.

Interesting things to be learned; if we receive Job's words as true .

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[Deborah13]

I'd like to interject, 4:21, the last statement being that when men die,
Job 4:21 Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

Eliphaz makes this statement as though all men are destined to die without the wisdom that comes from God. He profanes God and God's ability to bring men to the knowledge of Him and His will, with this statement.
He is telling Job that Job's belief in his innocence is incorrect. That there is no way Job could be righteous before God.

 

[eddif]

I'd like to interject, 4:21, the last statement being that when men die,
Job 4:21 Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

Eliphaz makes this statement as though all men are destined to die without the wisdom that comes from God. He profanes God and God's ability to bring men to the knowledge of Him and His will, with this statement.
He is telling Job that Job's belief in his innocence is incorrect. That there is no way Job could be righteous before God.

Good post

Job is a most unique book. If you do not read the last chapters first you tend to miss your observation. What makes the friends seem credible? Well we hear almost all their opinions today. It is also possible that today, those with the friends opinions, are in danger of profaning the revealed word of God.

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[eddif]

This is a bible study. If you have scriptures please post them. Some people I know / have known - form doctrines from Job's friends statements.

I tend to realize the impact of this study. I will tend to keep on the track I started, but feel free to offer scripture proof of any challenge. We will walk in peace.

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[eddif]

Backtrack

When Israel was leaving the wilderness wandering, faith was needed to enter Canan. Because we have read. Job before, we know the power of satan is going to try and wreck his life. We are well able to study one little OT book. It will take us all though; knowing 2 1/2 tribes want to remain on the other side of Jordan.

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OK. Our memory can be triggered by our senses. We need to be aware that they could lead us down a path we should not return to.

I must be confused. Joshua and Caleb were the only grasshoppers willing to go on. What are you referring to here?

Job 42:5 I had heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth Thee;
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.
Job 42:10 And the LORD changed the fortune of Job, when he prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
I wouldn't call these symbols but things that are necessary to our salvation.

But what are the symbols that you see in Job 42?

Backtrack big time. God evidently puts these photo / map / text overlays in my mind. I see a whole picture (on my limited intelligence level), but I fail to realize the 1,000 words each layer it takes to help others understand.

We were talking about cranial nerves. Our inputs into our brain. Our natural world we live in. Food, clothing, relationships, desires we should never have.
Then God wants to move us to another level
We have to retrain our senses to accomplish God's plan. Joshua and Caleb just dropped their thoughts and wanted to enter Canaan (forgetting their former life). There were two times Joshua and Caleb stood at Jordan. One time with unbelief, and the next time after those. 20 and above had died. Today the kingdom calls to us. The kingdom will not fit in old wine skins. Our very nature resists the change. Holy Spirit works in us to will and do of God's good pleasure). Will we die to self (put to death by faith) and open the door. Revelation 3:20

The 2 1/2 tribes left their natural cranial senses open and untrained. They could just see who the old man was. Their flocks their life. We will just stay here on the wilderness side of Jordan.

As I seek to teach the book of Job, the pressures of life detract from the work. I can only confess sins. The work I have left to him .

Receiving double was necessary to build up
OC / OT faith. NT / NC Kingdom teaching puts us in the servant position. Matthew 19

Many do not see the kingdom as achievable. Job was accepting the suffering and pressing forward. We accept the suffering while alive, but continually helping others in the natural and teaching kingdom (eternal) life principles. Now faith is... Is a little different than what faith was (probably get attacked). Believing God is the same, but believing God with Holy Spirit inside is different.

Did I say anything?

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[eddif]

Oops.
The kingdom is Matthew 20
Not Matthew 19.

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[Deborah13]

Many do not see the kingdom as achievable. Job was accepting the suffering and pressing forward.

At one point I don't know that Job was wanting to press forward in this life but he never gave up his faith in God. It's a wonder he didn't considering his faithless wife and blind friends.

Receiving double was necessary to build up

He learned the perseverance of faith and the blessings one receives for that.
I image, that he learned how to be even more compassionate for others and became a better teacher of the truths of God.

Now faith is... Is a little different than what faith was (probably get attacked). Believing God is the same, but believing God with Holy Spirit inside is different.

This reminds me again what another member said in a thread about Job. That before all this happened, "Job did not have a personal relationship with God."
I believe he was correct. Job did all the things that he was suppose to do, God called him righteous. But he didn't really know God. He heard but did not see.
If you are saying that Job received the Holy Spirit, that concept is not foreign to me. To use your metaphor, I believe through all of this, God was changing Job's old wineskin heart into a new wineskin heart, that was prepared to receive the new wine.

 

[eddif]

To this point I have not much stressed the transformation of the three friends. Time to acknowledge more that the friends will avoid the wrath of God. The friends will receive forgiveness because of God and Job.

Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The message of a suffering messiah.

Does Bildad agree?
Job 8:1
Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,
2 How long wilt thou speak these things? andhow long shall the words of thy mouth be like a strong wind?
3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?
4 If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgression;
5 If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty;
6 If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous.
7 Though thy beginning was small, yet thy latter end should greatly increase.

Read and re-read.

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