John 3:16, and OSAS, A dispensatinalists conundrum.

[farley]

Thessalonian,

Of course, you're right on this point.

However, in my limited experience, this issue spreads out to include all dispensationalists, such as those who are following the tenets of C.I. Scofield.

They don't just view the dispensations as OT vs NT. They chop the NT up into many pieces, or dispensations.

For example, they, being pre-millennialist's, see Rev. 3:5 as applying only to those living during the millennial reign of Christ. And, certain books, such as Hebrews and James, as relevant only to the Jews.

And so it goes, and goes, and goes...

In Christ,

farley

 

[thessalonian]

Yes, I realize there are also flavors of dispensationalists. Thanks for expounding however. I've run accross pre-mills who believe that there is not OSAS in the tribulation period. It would seem that if there were bibles around durning that time they would need to be revised. :-? :-?

 

[thessalonian]

Still hoping solo will resond.

 

[cj]

Yes, I realize there are also flavors of dispensationalists. Thanks for expounding however. I've run accross pre-mills who believe that there is not OSAS in the tribulation period. It would seem that if there were bibles around durning that time they would need to be revised. :-? :-?

The Spirit is taken out of the way, not removed entirely.

During the tribulation period men can still be saved by coming to believe in Jesus and what He has done.

The time of the change of age is when the Lord returns visibly, for at this time men will not need faith to believe for God will be before man openly.

Yet, even at this point eternal salvation is possible, just not in the same scope of the salvation that was possible during the church age.

In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

For the record, let it be stated that Mr. Solo has been notified by PM of this thread and never responded. Now I will let it rest.

Blessings

 

[Dave...]

“For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action) in him should not perish (aorist, a past point in time), but have (present, current, progressive action) everlasting life.†(KJV).

Interesting, uh? The present tense “that whosoever is believing in Him†puts a different light on the verse. One would expect the word believe to be aorist, to show it’s a “once-and-for-all†act, a “one-point-in-time†event. I used to say, “I believed in Christ on such and such a date so I know I am saved.†But now I say, I did believe in Christ, I am believing in Christ and I am being saved.†One could ask why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The present tense implies continually believing, a process of believing, and not the past mental assent I once thought.

Sounds like your argument is against Antinomianism, not Calvinism. This is common from Arminians. Even Arminians believe the same as Calvinists in that one must persevere to be saved. The difference comes in the fact that if we do not persevere, Arminians claim that we lost our salvation. Calvinist's claim that we were unmasked as a pretender. If perseverance is from God as a gift, and His Word tells us that salvation is all from Him, do we call God, or man a liar? "...let God be found true, though every man be found a liar..."

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

As far as a "“once-and-for-allâ€Â...“one-point-in-timeâ€Â" We are elected unto salvation, "unto" being the key word.

1. Classic Arminianism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.â€Â


2. Antinomianism

• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

"The believer who loses his faith is saved."


3. Classic Calvinism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

• Those who “lose†their faith never had it to begin with.

• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who los his faith never really had itâ€â€or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.â€Â

Show me someone who understands what the term Calvinism really means, and i'll show you a Calvinist. :-D

The one truth of Calvinism...God saves sinners. 8-)

Peace

 

[cj]

The one truth of Calvinism...God saves sinners.

Well, truth be told, Calvinism sort of borrowed this truth from God.

Really, there ain't no Christ in Calvinism thus there can be no truth in it either.


In love,
cj

 

[JM]

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are [judicially] passed away; behold, all things are become new [creation]" (2 Cor. 5:17).

"Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come" (Rom. 5:14).

____________________________________________________________________
F.W. Grant writes:

Many think that Adam in the Garden was actually God's first thought, instead of being merely a first step towards the accomplishment of what was really His first and eternal thought.

Thus to them "the times of the restoration of all things" becomes necessary, a getting back to a supposed Adamic state. And in this way both the state of Adam in the Garden is unscripturally exalted, and the work of Christ and its consequences really, though unintentionally, denigrated (Leaves, p. 268).

The Lord Jesus Christ's work is different in character and results, Godward, from anything that could be of Adam. It was one such as the "Only Begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father" alone could accomplish. Peerless in His person and work, the position which He has taken as the result of it with the Father is one suited not to the first man, "of the earth, earthy," "but of the Second Man, the Lord from heaven."

Taking His seat at the right hand of the Father, He is become Head of a "new creation," not Restorer of the "old." He is not the first Adam set up again, but the "Last Adam," and He is "the beginning of the creation of God." All things are restored, but not to the primitive condition before the fall. They are all "made new." The old condition of things is positionally done away (2 Cor. 5:17) (pp. 214,215).

____________________________________________________________________

"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him" (Col. 1:16).

"God sending His own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

"The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also, and the works that are in it, shall be burned up ....

"Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:10,13).

New Creation

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation" (Gal. 6:15).

"So reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God in Jesus Christ." Also in verse 23, "The wages of sin is death"--that is the old creation--"but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"--that is the new creation. Romans 6:11

"God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation" (Gal. 6:14,15).

I guess it's St. Pauls mess as well.

Peace,

jason

 

[Dave...]

Well, truth be told, Calvinism sort of borrowed this truth from God.

Really, there ain't no Christ in Calvinism thus there can be no truth in it either.

Fair enough. I should have said 'the one truth from God's Word that Calvinism teaches, God saves sinners.'


Jesus is God.

 

[cj]

Fair enough. I should have said 'the one truth from God's Word that Calvinism teaches, God saves sinners.'

Perhaps, in a limited, narrow, and short sense, but according to the truth that scripture reveals, what Calvinism "teaches" is not just individual divine truths, but these truths mixed with false human concepts.

God is quite clear that the leaven cannot be seperated from the fine flour, and that even the smallest amount of leaven corupts the entire batch of fine flour.

Therefore, remaining true to this divine principle, there really is not truth that Calvinism can teach.

I believe a perfect example of this can be seen with John McArthur. This believer is a fine, historically accurate, and for the most part well-centered teacher of the letter of the scriptures. Yet, unfortunately, when it comes to the things of the Spirit he is to be found lacking, and hence his teaching is in death and not life, corrupted by short human concepts and thus of no positive use to the work of the Lord in building His church.

Jesus is God.

He is also the only foundation and cornerstone of the builded-up church.

And this truth is the only light we need to come to possess.

In love,
cj

 

[gazzamor]

As far as once saved always saved goes: You are once saved always saved as long as you keep on being saved.
Or: you are once married always married as long as you keep on being married.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So it is possible to fall from grace and lose out on salvation.


God Bless

Gazzamor

 

[Solo]

As far as once saved always saved goes: You are once saved always saved as long as you keep on being saved.
Or: you are once married always married as long as you keep on being married.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So it is possible to fall from grace and lose out on salvation.


God Bless

Gazzamor

Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible to be brought back to repentance if they fall away. What does that mean. If you fall away into sin, and you cannot repent, are you lost? If you answer yes, then explain the letters that Jesus gives to the seven churches in Revelation 2-4. If you can repent, then why does Hebrews 6 say that it is impossible?

 

[unred typo]

Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible to be brought back to repentance if they fall away. What does that mean. If you fall away into sin, and you cannot repent, are you lost? If you answer yes, then explain the letters that Jesus gives to the seven churches in Revelation 2-4. If you can repent, then why does Hebrews 6 say that it is impossible?

Hebrews is the specific sin of falling back into the sacrificial system, “counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.†Further, this sin is committed after having been born again, which is not the same as claiming to have been born again. If you are truly born again, this return to Judaism would be willful rejection of your savior, not just ignorance of the same.
:o

 

[Solo]

Hebrews is the specific sin of falling back into the sacrificial system, “counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.†Further, this sin is committed after having been born again, which is not the same as claiming to have been born again. If you are truly born again, this return to Judaism would be willful rejection of your savior, not just ignorance of the same.
:o

Those who are born of God cannot sin. Those who have not been born of God continually attempt to work out their own salvation without including the works of God.

 

[unred typo]

Those who are born of God cannot sin. Those who have not been born of God continually attempt to work out their own salvation without including the works of God.

What works of God am I not including in my salvation, Solo? You mean the teaching of Christ to love and forgive one another? You mean the repentance from sin that Jesus taught? You mean the blood of Christ which I claim daily to cover my sin? You mean the Holy Spirit that leads me into truth as I read the scriptures? You mean the God of creation that I continually implore to show me more of his presence in my life?

Perhaps you mean the audacity to call myself “born of the Spirit†and “sinless,†all the while rejecting the teaching of Christ and the commands he gives in the gospels?

 

[Solo]

What works of God am I not including in my salvation, Solo? You mean the teaching of Christ to love and forgive one another? You mean the repentance from sin that Jesus taught? You mean the blood of Christ which I claim daily to cover my sin? You mean the Holy Spirit that leads me into truth as I read the scriptures? You mean the God of creation that I continually implore to show me more of his presence in my life?

Perhaps you mean the audacity to call myself “born of the Spirit†and “sinless,†all the while rejecting the teaching of Christ and the commands he gives in the gospels?

Which of your works will cause you to loose your salvation?

 

[unred typo]

Which of your works will cause you to loose your salvation?

Do you mean lose my salvation? Let me see. Of the ones I listed: none. They were all works of faith. You’re the one who believes works of faith are cause for God to strike our names from the book of life. I would say that it’s not a sin to love and forgive one another, nor is the repentance from sin, nor is it a sin to claim the blood of Christ daily, nor is reading the scriptures or imploring God to show me more of his presence in my life. Which of my works do you suppose will cause the loss of my salvation?
:smt102

 

[gazzamor]

I reiterate again that under certain circumstances, it is impossible to repent and come back once a person has gone down a certain track. And the only sin that the bible hold out on this is the unpardonable sin.

a good commentary on this passage of scripture is Matthew Henry, which I tend for you to peruse.

The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.

So again I say: It is possible to fall from grace, and lose out on salvation.

God Bless

Gazzamor

 

[Solo]

Do you mean lose my salvation? Let me see. Of the ones I listed: none. They were all works of faith. You’re the one who believes works of faith are cause for God to strike our names from the book of life. I would say that it’s not a sin to love and forgive one another, nor is the repentance from sin, nor is it a sin to claim the blood of Christ daily, nor is reading the scriptures or imploring God to show me more of his presence in my life. Which of my works do you suppose will cause the loss of my salvation?
:smt102

Well then you agree that one who is born again cannot lose their salvation. Great. We can move on to the next lesson. You choose the subject.

 

[unred typo]

Well then you agree that one who is born again cannot lose their salvation. Great. We can move on to the next lesson. You choose the subject.

Was that intended to be a display of your amazing twisting abilities? It may have been an attempt to turn around what I said but I’m not going to let you get away with it. All I have to do is remind the reader with at least half a brain, that you asked which of my works listed for gaining salvation would cause me to lose it. The question was nonsense and I responded by trying to show you the folly of it but you seem to have it bound up in you.

If you sincerely want to know what acts would cause one to lose their salvation, (if you could possibly be sincere to know anything but your own opinion), I can only give you a reminder that one does not ‘have salvation’ from sin if they are still slaves to sin. What you seem to have is not a reading problem as I suspected but a spelling error. You believe in eternal slavation, not eternal salvation. It’s Once Slaved, Always Slaved for you. Don’t you see that you cannot be simultaneously saved from sin and still wallowing in it, Solo?