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John 3:16, and OSAS, A dispensatinalists conundrum.

unred typo said:
Was that intended to be a display of your amazing twisting abilities? It may have been an attempt to turn around what I said but I’m not going to let you get away with it. All I have to do is remind the reader with at least half a brain, that you asked which of my works listed for gaining salvation would cause me to lose it. The question was nonsense and I responded by trying to show you the folly of it but you seem to have it bound up in you.

If you sincerely want to know what acts would cause one to lose their salvation, (if you could possibly be sincere to know anything but your own opinion), I can only give you a reminder that one does not ‘have salvation’ from sin if they are still slaves to sin. What you seem to have is not a reading problem as I suspected but a spelling error. You believe in eternal slavation, not eternal salvation. It’s Once Slaved, Always Slaved for you. Don’t you see that you cannot be simultaneously saved from sin and still wallowing in it, Solo?
I have not wallowed in sin since I was born of God. Prior to being born of God I wallowed in sin more than the next man, therefore, I recognize fully both sides of the coin. I also recognize those who are walking according the the Spirit, and those who are walking according to the flesh. If you trust in the Word of God, read the following verses of Scripture and teach us the meaning thereof. Which verses denote losing one's salvation, and which ones guarantee not losing one's salvation?
Thanks.

Romans 5

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
Solo said:
I have not wallowed in sin since I was born of God. Prior to being born of God I wallowed in sin more than the next man, therefore, I recognize fully both sides of the coin. I also recognize those who are walking according the the Spirit, and those who are walking according to the flesh. If you trust in the Word of God, read the following verses of Scripture and teach us the meaning thereof. Which verses denote losing one's salvation, and which ones guarantee not losing one's salvation?
Thanks.

I’m not feeling much like taking an exercise in futility tonight. Why don’t you go ahead and show us which of those verses support your view and explain why you think any of these verses guarantee not losing one‘s salvation. The entire concept of losing something that one doesn’t own yet is rather misleading. As you read through them again, pay particular attention to the words and phrases like henceforth, shall be, should no longer, therefore, unto, etc. showing an ongoing process leading to a future outcome. When you’ve done your homework, I’ll see if I can correct it for you. :wink:
 
unred typo said:
I’m not feeling much like taking an exercise in futility tonight. Why don’t you go ahead and show us which of those verses support your view and explain why you think any of these verses guarantee not losing one‘s salvation. The entire concept of losing something that one doesn’t own yet is rather misleading. As you read through them again, pay particular attention to the words and phrases like henceforth, shall be, should no longer, therefore, unto, etc. showing an ongoing process leading to a future outcome. When you’ve done your homework, I’ll see if I can correct it for you. :wink:
I suspected that you would not be able to expound correctly to the passages given. You have confirmed that you have no idea of what it means to be born again. Hopefully one day you will. Your mix up between the process of justification and sanctification scream loudly in this latest post. Thank you.
 
Solo, I never said that a born again Christian could lose out on salvation. When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, we are accepted in the beloved and pass from death to life. We are Justified freely in Christ as though we have never sinned. But we are continually Sanctified daily, and Sanctification is a work of a lifetime. At times in our lives we may sin due to our human weaknesses. This is why there is a text in scripture that says:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness

But this is not the sin that Hebrews is talking about.
Just a question on this point: What is the difference between Peter’s sin and Judas’ sin? Why will Peter be with Christ on the New Earth, and Judas will not be there?

All I’m saying is that the bible says that it is possible to fall from grace and lose out on salvation, and as Hebrews 6:4-6 points out that in certain circumstances it is impossible to come back and repent.

Hebrews even goes further and points to those who willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin in their case is possible.:

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

So this OSAS business is not biblical.

God Bless

Gazzamor
 
gazzamor said:
Solo, I never said that a born again Christian could lose out on salvation. When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, we are accepted in the beloved and pass from death to life. We are Justified freely in Christ as though we have never sinned. But we are continually Sanctified daily, and Sanctification is a work of a lifetime. At times in our lives we may sin due to our human weaknesses. This is why there is a text in scripture that says:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness

But this is not the sin that Hebrews is talking about.
Just a question on this point: What is the difference between Peter’s sin and Judas’ sin? Why will Peter be with Christ on the New Earth, and Judas will not be there?
Judas was not born again. Peter was. Thomas did not believe until after Jesus' resurrection.

gazzamor said:
All I’m saying is that the bible says that it is possible to fall from grace and lose out on salvation, and as Hebrews 6:4-6 points out that in certain circumstances it is impossible to come back and repent.

Hebrews even goes further and points to those who willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin in their case is possible.:

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

So this OSAS business is not biblical.

God Bless

Gazzamor
Let me share with you a couple of verses of Scripture that show what happens to those who are born again, but continue to walk in the flesh.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile F9 the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Corinthians 3:11-17

What happens to the man whose work was burned? Is he saved or lost?
What was destroyed, his flesh or his soul?

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

What happened to the believer who was commiting fornication with his father's wife, a sin that was "not so much as named among the Gentiles"?
Was this man sent to hell for this fornication?

According to the Scripture from Romans that I posted, what part of a believer sins, the New creature or the Old creature, the New man or the Old man, the Flesh or the Spirit.

Jesus said that unless one is born again, born of God, he/she could not enter into the Kingdom of God. He explains that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Without being born of the Spirit man is just flesh and will be destroyed. The flesh of a believer will also be destroyed or changed but the born again spirit remains alive. That which is born of God, the spirit, cannot sin; but the flesh is sold under sin and must be subjected to the spirit in order to live sin free.
 
Solo said:
I suspected that you would not be able to expound correctly to the passages given. You have confirmed that you have no idea of what it means to be born again. Hopefully one day you will. Your mix up between the process of justification and sanctification scream loudly in this latest post. Thank you.

It was not a invitation to slam me, Solo. It was your chance to show me how they proved your view. They were your choice of verses. I don’t see how you have shown your expertise in interpreting them to illustrate a OSAS slant by simply proclaiming yourself more spiritual than me.
:roll:
 
unred typo said:
It was not a invitation to slam me, Solo. It was your chance to show me how they proved your view. They were your choice of verses. I don’t see how you have shown your expertise in interpreting them to illustrate a OSAS slant by simply proclaiming yourself more spiritual than me.
:roll:
:smt015 I'll wait. Perhaps you will be moved to articulate your interpretation of the verses that I have posted. :smt015
 
solo said:
According to the Scripture from Romans that I posted, what part of a believer sins, the New creature or the Old creature, the New man or the Old man, the Flesh or the Spirit.

Oh, I see you explained your reasoning in the post to gazzamor. All you did in the one to me was copy/paste the entire three chapters of Romans 5,6 & 7, without bothering to give me a hint as to how you thought they related to your version of OSAS. Now that I see your reasoning, I can give you a better view of them.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You see Paul is saying that he actually delights in the good law of God, which is love for others. He wants to give unselfishly of his food, material things and his time but his body and the flesh demands to eat, to be cared for, to sleep, to lust after things that belong to others, to exalt himself, instead of taking the attitude of a servant. When he wants to give his bread to the hungry, his own stomach doesn’t want to skip a meal. When he wants to stay up all night caring for a friend who was beaten for the preaching of the gospel, he gets tired and falls asleep. He is being tempted to lust after material things that others have and he has to constantly keep his flesh under submission or it will cause him to sin, to be angry, to want to make himself look good in the eyes of others, to want to be waited on instead of serving others first.

I don’t for a minute believe that Paul committed adultery, or stole or lied or blasphemed the name of God, because he was so disciplined and he loved the law of God (love one another). He fought the good fight and kept his flesh under submission, everyday, repenting and confessing his sins. This is what serving the law of sin is, Solo. Confession and repentance. The law of sin is that the soul that sins, it shall die. That’s why we must have the blood of Christ to pay for our sins. Even to be angry without a cause is a sin because we can harbor murder in our hearts. We must be sober and vigilant to repent of even the thoughts of jealousy, covetousness, greed, lust and pride because that is where our sin is going to originate from, from our hearts.

My guess is that Paul’s sin problem was pride and God even gave him an ‘infirmity in the flesh’ to help him remain humble. Some believe it was an eye problem to make him dependant upon others and God and not so self sufficient. The answer to your question is that the Flesh wants to do evil and if we give in to the flesh, we will be punished. If we by the spirit subdue the flesh, we will live. The war is between the Spirit and the Flesh. Satan uses the flesh to lure us from God’s way of salvation by it’s lusts and appetites. When is too much giving in to the flesh going to cause us to lose our reward of eternal life? God only knows. That’s why he is the judge and not us. We can only judge ourselves, determine when we have disobeyed either in our thoughts or deeds, and repent.

The question is, do you hate sin yet?
:smt102
 
unred typo said:
You see Paul is saying that he actually delights in the good law of God, which is love for others. He wants to give unselfishly of his food, material things and his time but his body and the flesh demands to eat, to be cared for, to sleep, to lust after things that belong to others, to exalt himself, instead of taking the attitude of a servant. When he wants to give his bread to the hungry, his own stomach doesn’t want to skip a meal. When he wants to stay up all night caring for a friend who was beaten for the preaching of the gospel, he gets tired and falls asleep. He is being tempted to lust after material things that others have and he has to constantly keep his flesh under submission or it will cause him to sin, to be angry, to want to make himself look good in the eyes of others, to want to be waited on instead of serving others first.

I don’t for a minute believe that Paul committed adultery, or stole or lied or blasphemed the name of God, because he was so disciplined and he loved the law of God (love one another). He fought the good fight and kept his flesh under submission, everyday, repenting and confessing his sins. This is what serving the law of sin is, Solo. Confession and repentance. The law of sin is that the soul that sins, it shall die. That’s why we must have the blood of Christ to pay for our sins. Even to be angry without a cause is a sin because we can harbor murder in our hearts. We must be sober and vigilant to repent of even the thoughts of jealousy, covetousness, greed, lust and pride because that is where our sin is going to originate from, from our hearts.

My guess is that Paul’s sin problem was pride and God even gave him an ‘infirmity in the flesh’ to help him remain humble. Some believe it was an eye problem to make him dependant upon others and God and not so self sufficient. The answer to your question is that the Flesh wants to do evil and if we give in to the flesh, we will be punished. If we by the spirit subdue the flesh, we will live. The war is between the Spirit and the Flesh. Satan uses the flesh to lure us from God’s way of salvation by it’s lusts and appetites. When is too much giving in to the flesh going to cause us to lose our reward of eternal life? God only knows. That’s why he is the judge and not us. We can only judge ourselves, determine when we have disobeyed either in our thoughts or deeds, and repent.

The question is, do you hate sin yet?
:smt102
So which sin of the flesh will cause you to lose God's gift of salvation, Pride or Adultery?
 
Solo said:
So which sin of the flesh will cause you to lose God's gift of salvation, Pride or Adultery?

This is an impossible question to ask. Clearly there is in the bible an unforgivable sin. Not because Christ's blood doesn't cover it, but because you are denying the very means to forgiveness.

You could say that anyone truly born again can't loose their salvation.

I could say that someone could be careless with their faith, continue to live in sin because "their sin is forgiven through Christ" and thus sin (working much like a disease) can slowly eat away at their faith until the point they are completely self-righteouss or they just forgoe God to live their own life.

But then you would respons by saying that the person was clearly not truly born again.

See the cycle we could get into?

I see the trouble with debating this issue. Do I feel as though I could loose my salvation? It's a fear that I have had before. A seminary professor often spoke of bouncing between the pillar of despair and the pillar of self-rightousness (which Luther had mentioned) with the cross in the middle of the two. And often a believer will, like a pendilum, swing between the two.

I can already see the replies this is going to get...
 
Fnerb said:
This is an impossible question to ask. Clearly there is in the bible an unforgivable sin. Not because Christ's blood doesn't cover it, but because you are denying the very means to forgiveness.

You could say that anyone truly born again can't loose their salvation.

I could say that someone could be careless with their faith, continue to live in sin because "their sin is forgiven through Christ" and thus sin (working much like a disease) can slowly eat away at their faith until the point they are completely self-righteouss or they just forgoe God to live their own life.

But then you would respons by saying that the person was clearly not truly born again.

See the cycle we could get into?

The point I see siding with the OSAS theory is that how can anyone that truly understands and is brought to faith, learns of God's love and heaven, how could you walk away from that? Truth be told, I work with someone whom has done just that.

I see the trouble with debating this issue. Do I feel as though I could loose my salvation? It's a fear that I have had before. A seminary professor often spoke of bouncing between the pillar of despair and the pillar of self-rightousness (which Luther had mentioned) with the cross in the middle of the two. And often a believer will, like a pendilum, swing between the two.

I can already see the replies this is going to get...
How about, the salvation of man is based on God's work, not man's work?

If salvation is based on man's work, one can lose their salvation because their faith is built on shifting sand, but if ones salvation is based on God's work, their faith is built on a solid Rock.
 
The difference between the two views is that one side believes man can lose his salvation by what he does, and the other believes that what you do gives evidence to who you are and have been, in Christ or not. The bible clearly backs the second view. The first is not grounded in scripture at all.
 
Solo said:
So which sin of the flesh will cause you to lose God's gift of salvation, Pride or Adultery?

God doesn’t just give the gift of salvation, he gives the gift of forgiveness, by the atoning blood, when you repent of your sin. Any sin you refuse to give up to win Christ is going to keep you from being IN CHRIST. Sin is breaking the commands of Christ, which is love for one another, humility, holiness, temperance, and forgiveness, and none of them will keep you from being in Christ when you repent of them. If your pride keeps you from repenting or following Christ, then it is the sin that will cause you to not gain eternal life because you won’t be IN Christ and your salvation is by being IN Christ. The judgment is up to God, not us, btw.
 
unred typo said:
God doesn’t just give the gift of salvation, he gives the gift of forgiveness, by the atoning blood, when you repent of your sin. Any sin you refuse to give up to win Christ is going to keep you from being IN CHRIST. Sin is breaking the commands of Christ, which is love for one another, humility, holiness, temperance, and forgiveness, and none of them will keep you from being in Christ when you repent of them. If your pride keeps you from repenting or following Christ, then it is the sin that will cause you to not gain eternal life because you won’t be IN Christ and your salvation is by being IN Christ. The judgment is up to God, not us, btw.

I am familiar with the Scripture that teaches us that believers are saved by grace through faith; not of works lest any man should boast. How is the gift of salvation different from the gift of forgiveness?

The King James Version translates the Greek word αφεσιν as remission 9 times, forgiveness 6 times, deliverance 1 time, and liberty 1 time.

In Acts 2:38 Peter said that in order to in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, one must repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

The understanding that God has given me aligns with this Scripture in that one must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God whereby one is saved, and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The Word translated repent is used 34 times in the King James New Testament; whereby 33 times it is and act to be done to become born again, 2 times for forgiving a brother who repents against you, and 9 times for those who continue to sin to repent otherwise they will be chastised. No where is the word repent used to indicate that one has lost their salvation once they have repented and have been born again.

Your understanding is that one must continue to repent for every sin in order to keep one's salvation. If this is the case, then is Peter telling those in Acts 2:38 that they need to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" each time you sin? I think not.

Sin is defined in the Hebrew and in the Greek words as "missing the mark" of God. Missing the righteousness of God is the meaning of the word sin. Since mankind misses the mark of God's righteousness, the righteousness of God has to be imputed to those who are called and chosen through the Saviour, Jesus Christ.
 
solo said:
I am familiar with the Scripture that teaches us that believers are saved by grace through faith; not of works lest any man should boast. How is the gift of salvation different from the gift of forgiveness?

How is the gift of a college education different from the gift of a college diploma? How is the gift of groceries different from the gift of a restaurant coupon? How is the gift of a video different than taking you to the movies? How is the gift of a guided fishing trip different from the gift of a fish? The gift of money or the gift of a job?

Ah ha, you say, one has works and the other doesn’t so one is the biblical example and the other is of works so it is not a true biblical analogy of salvation through grace. I was hoping you’d say that. :wink:

Which can you boast of paying for your own college? Which meal can you boast of earning for yourself? Which can you boast of paying to see the movie? Which fish can you boast that you paid for? Did you earn the job or the money?

The biblical example is that one cannot boast that they earned the gift of either one, the gift of the blood of Christ or the chance to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling. You can’t boast that because you did A, God was required to give you Z. You can fill the A blank in with good works, church attendance, missionary work, or obeying the gospel (whatever) and the Z with eternal life, salvation, good health, rewards, or forgiveness (whatever). God makes the rules. He didn’t HAVE to give you the chance to do anything for anything. He owes us nothing. Adam rebelled against God, and God could have cast Adam into hell right then and where would you be now?

That’s why you have such a dispensationalist conundrum.
Your example of grace and works cannot be reconciled. You split it into “before you are saved†and “after you are saved†and change the reward from “salvation†to “salvation, followed by special honors in heaven.†Such finagling with scripture will only fool the lazy, the dullard and the ungodly who want their cake and eat it too and will believe anything to attain that impossibility, and top it off with a feel-good verse or two.

:smt073
 
So every time that you sin, you must repent, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, to receive the Holy Spirit again, so that you can walk in good works again?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Also, the Scriptures teach that Salvation comes before good works.


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:4-10

It is ludicrous to think that one can do good works, and be saved so that one can continue in good works until one sins after which on falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the etc. etc. etc. etc.

A marvelous theology that you have, don't ya think?
:o
 
solo said:
So every time that you sin, you must repent, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, to receive the Holy Spirit again, so that you can walk in good works again?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Also, the Scriptures teach that Salvation comes before good works.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:4-10

It is ludicrous to think that one can do good works, and be saved so that one can continue in good works until one sins after which on falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again, and begin to perform good works again until the next time one sins, after which one falls from salvation, loses the etc. etc. etc. etc.

A marvelous theology that you have, don't ya think?

Looks like a marvelous straw man to me. I’m too busy to tear it apart right now, though it looks like fun, I have an important appointment with my grandson at the donut shop. Catch you later!


:-D
 
solo said:
It is ludicrous to think that one can do good works, and be saved so that one can continue in good works until one sins after which on falls from salvation, loses the Holy Spirit, and returns to bad works; until one repents, gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissiion of sins again, receives the Holy Spirit again,

Ok, stop. Who said, “One can do good works, and be savedâ€Â? You are not “saved†until you finish the course. You may be on the way of salvation by following Christ but until you get to the end of your life, and stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and he says, “well done, good and faithful servantâ€Â, you are not “saved.â€Â

You don’t have to be re-baptized every time you sin. Jesus said he that is washed only has to wash his feet. So when you step in it, confess, repent and know that you are clean again. That is what trusting in the blood is.

You may know you have eternal life if you have the Spirit witnessing to your spirit that you are a child of God, but you are still free to dump it all for the pleasures of this life, just as the prodigal son did. There was no guarantees made that since he was a son, he would always come back to the Father. He would always be welcomed, however.

How often can you sin against God and repent and be forgiven? Jesus said seventy times seven, and I think you might even find even more than that but if you refuse to forgive others, you won’t be forgiven by God either. You may not like it but that’s what Jesus said.

You receive the gifts of the Spirit when you repent and follow Christ, formally beginning with obedience in baptism. The Spirit indwells those who walk in love and obedience. You lose fellowship with God whenever you don’t love one another and refuse to obey the Spirit’s leading in your life to repent of sin. The Spirit continues to convict believers and unbelievers of sin, whether you are a child of God or only think you are, or whether you are an Atheist who feels God should not be meddling in his life. And there comes a day when God stops trying to bring you back and you are no longer able to even feel conviction of sin. Then you might as well die, but God may allow you to stay here for a while longer, in answer to some prayer made in your behalf. Who knows for sure? God does but he’s not telling us all the particulars.

So you see, it’s not the mess you put together and dressed fit to kill. Your little straw man fell apart and you didn’t even have to huff and puff. I picked it up and the head popped off and the stuffing dropped out.
:-D
 
unred typo said:
Ok, stop. Who said, “One can do good works, and be savedâ€Â? You are not “saved†until you finish the course. You may be on the way of salvation by following Christ but until you get to the end of your life, and stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and he says, “well done, good and faithful servantâ€Â, you are not “saved.â€Â

You don’t have to be re-baptized every time you sin. Jesus said he that is washed only has to wash his feet. So when you step in it, confess, repent and know that you are clean again. That is what trusting in the blood is.

You may know you have eternal life if you have the Spirit witnessing to your spirit that you are a child of God, but you are still free to dump it all for the pleasures of this life, just as the prodigal son did. There was no guarantees made that since he was a son, he would always come back to the Father. He would always be welcomed, however.

How often can you sin against God and repent and be forgiven? Jesus said seventy times seven, and I think you might even find even more than that but if you refuse to forgive others, you won’t be forgiven by God either. You may not like it but that’s what Jesus said.

You receive the gifts of the Spirit when you repent and follow Christ, formally beginning with obedience in baptism. The Spirit indwells those who walk in love and obedience. You lose fellowship with God whenever you don’t love one another and refuse to obey the Spirit’s leading in your life to repent of sin. The Spirit continues to convict believers and unbelievers of sin, whether you are a child of God or only think you are, or whether you are an Atheist who feels God should not be meddling in his life. And there comes a day when God stops trying to bring you back and you are no longer able to even feel conviction of sin. Then you might as well die, but God may allow you to stay here for a while longer, in answer to some prayer made in your behalf. Who knows for sure? God does but he’s not telling us all the particulars.

So you see, it’s not the mess you put together and dressed fit to kill. Your little straw man fell apart and you didn’t even have to huff and puff. I picked it up and the head popped off and the stuffing dropped out.
:-D
The judgment seat of Christ has nothing to do with Salvation for believers. When Jesus returns, those that are born again will be resurrected or changed, and Jesus has his rewards with him. Those that are not born again will be resurrected in the second resurrection. Judgment is for position in eternity for those who have eternal life, and level of punishment for those who have eternal separation from God.
 
solo said:
The judgment seat of Christ has nothing to do with Salvation for believers. When Jesus returns, those that are born again will be resurrected or changed, and Jesus has his rewards with him. Those that are not born again will be resurrected in the second resurrection. Judgment is for position in eternity for those who have eternal life, and level of punishment for those who have eternal separation from God.

That would be one theory. I really don’t care about getting those things all straight. What will be, will be. I don’t even think it will be on the entrance exam at the pearly gates. :wink: I’m going to concentrate on what I must do to be saved. I’ll let you argue the order of future events with those who care.
8-)
 
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