John Calvin's Heretical Teaching

[atpollard]

Simple question, are you a Calvinist

No, I am a Reformed Baptist (I follow Reformed Theology and Baptist Distinctives ... I have never read any of Calvin's books) ... However, I found that the 4 truths that I discovered reading the Bible already had a name and an acronym (T.U.*.I.P.) - I had never even thought to ask "who did Jesus die for?" Jesus died for ME, so I was happy for that - anyone else seemed more "His business" than "my business".

Does that answer your question?
If not, then please define "Calvinist" since the word means different things to different people, and I will attempt to answer with a simple YES or NO.

 

[atpollard]

You must not believe that Christs blood was shed only for them He saved by His Blood. If you say it was sufficient to save the non elect, then you mean it was shed for them in some degree. And if it was shed for them in some degree, and it didn't save them, that's putting the deficiency in the blood of Christ,

non sequitur ... you answered NEITHER question asked of you:

1. So you are saying that Jesus wanted to save the non-elect but ran out of BLOOD?
2. You are saying THE BLOOD WAS INSUFFICIENT ... that is the reason many are not saved?

In contrast, I answered your question about what I believe as completely as I was able [and you completely ignored it].
Until you choose to DIALOGUE, I am finished talking to you. [You are not listening.]

 

[atpollard]

You must not believe that Christs blood was shed only for them He saved by His Blood.

Read ...

Those who are UNSAVED (eternally damned, passed over, reprobate) DO NOT DESIRE TO B E SAVED ... therefore the BLOOD OF CHRIST is not wasted being shed for those that do not desire it!

 

[electedbyHim]

Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas

Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas "And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he...

christianforums.net

So, if Christ's blood atoned for every person who ever lived, that would mean that His blood covered all of their sins, even the sin of unbelief.

Every human who ever lived is in heaven and going to heaven because Christ's blood covered their sins.

Is this correct.

 

[SolaScriptura]

So, if Christ's blood atoned for every person who ever lived, that would mean that His blood covered all of their sins, even the sin of unbelief.

Every human who ever lived is in heaven and going to heaven because Christ's blood covered their sins.

Is this correct.

Only when a sinner repents of their sins and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, will the Blood be applied to their sins. it is conditional

 

[electedbyHim]

Only when a sinner repents of their sins and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, will the Blood be applied to their sins. it is conditional

So, God works under conditions whom He will allow to be saved, or man is sovereign and puts conditions on God if he wants to be saved.

 

[Fastfredy0]

How was ANYONE saved pre-Moses? (no LAW)?
How was ANYONE saved pre-Incarnation (no Christ)?

This is debatable and does not address my question. (don't answer a question with a question )
Aside: Seems to me close to 0% saved from Moses time (Amos 3:2 ... but again... we digress)

I think it was Romans 1 and Romans 2 that deals with that esoteric theological question.
However, I was focused more on POST CRUCIFIXION. Are all babies DAMNED simply because they have not obtained cognitive language skills yet? ... Or is GOD able to save ANYONE that HE grants the gift of FAITH!

Another question that does not address my question. The Age of Accountability is another topic. Glad to go there later.
Aside: If babies etc. go to heaven then 95% of people in heaven are there because didn't reach the age of accountability (that not be the first cause) and abortions have favorable eternal result.

PS: The exact Quote was "I agree that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has the opportunity to be saved 'IF they WANT to be'" ... It is critical that "they want to be saved" because that desire can only come from God as a gift. If God gives the DESIRE, Christ supplied the BLOOD to make it possible!

Ah, an answer. I agree with that explanation. Basically you're saying EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has no opportunity to be saved via their own independent volition; that God's has to step in and in that circumstance it's a 100% guarantee.
Aside: I usually think of the definition of "opportunity" as a chance of more than one outcome .... but with salvation it's a 'done deal' one way or another (Eph. 1:4)

Thx for your response ... as usual, I agree with you.

 

[atpollard]

Ah, an answer. I agree with that explanation. Basically you're saying EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has no opportunity to be saved via their own independent volition; that God's has to step in and in that circumstance it's a 100% guarantee.
Aside: I usually think of the definition of "opportunity" as a chance of more than one outcome .... but with salvation it's a 'done deal' one way or another (Eph. 1:4)

Thx for your response ... as usual, I agree with you.

While the RESULT is a foregone conclusion (no opportunity), I suspect that the PROCESS and REALITY has a bit more subtlety to it. For example, Romans 1 states that all men are without excuse. This would suggest that HARD DETERMINISM (people are robots that do as God forced them to do) is false. Therefore, even the REPROBATE had an opportunity to repent and be saved … in spite of the fact that they cannot (because of their fallen nature) and will not (because they have no desire to - John 3:19-20). However, they received a warning and knew they were doing evil and SHOULD repent (just like every SMOKER knows they should quit smoking even if they never even try to quit).

Does that make any sense?

 

[SolaScriptura]

So, God works under conditions whom He will allow to be saved, or man is sovereign and puts conditions on God if he wants to be saved.

The Triune God has made provisions for the salvation of every single sinner of His Creation, it is up to them to accept what God has done, or reject it. This is very clear in Paul's Second Letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 2:

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These "DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, SO THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED". This means that they REJECTED the Gospel Message for their salvation.

And, it is because of their actions, that God sent them a "strong delusion that they should believe the lie". Exactly what happened to Pharaoh, who first hardened his own heart, and then God hardened it also.

Verse 12 says, these are condemned, not because of Jesus not dying for them, but, they REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH of the Gospel, and actually "had pleasure in unrighteousness"

Very clear that God did not want these to go to hell, but they CHOSE to do so!

Also, in Acts chapter 13, verse 46

"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles"

These Jews REJECTED the Gospel of their salvation, and it was THEM, and not God, who considered themselves, "unworthy of everlasting life"

 

[brightfame52]

non sequitur ... you answered NEITHER question asked of you:

1. So you are saying that Jesus wanted to save the non-elect but ran out of BLOOD?
2. You are saying THE BLOOD WAS INSUFFICIENT ... that is the reason many are not saved?

In contrast, I answered your question about what I believe as completely as I was able [and you completely ignored it].
Until you choose to DIALOGUE, I am finished talking to you. [You are not listening.]

No matter how you slice it,

You believe in some sense Christ died for the none elect and yet His death for them didnt save them. So you either believe His death lacked the efficacy to save them or they didnt perform the condition the condition of faith or believing in Him, which makes for them salvation by works. You are stuck in a compromise with calvinism and arminianism. Heres Jesus words to those who waver between the two Rev 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[atpollard]

No matter how you slice it,

You believe in some sense Christ died for the none elect and yet His death for them didnt save them. So you either believe His death lacked the efficacy to save them or they didnt perform the condition the condition of faith or believing in Him, which makes for them salvation by works. You are stuck in a compromise with calvinism and arminianism. Heres Jesus words to those who waver between the two Rev 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[electedbyHim]

The Triune God has made provisions for the salvation of every single sinner of His Creation, it is up to them to accept what God has done, or reject it. This is very clear in Paul's Second Letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 2:

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These "DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, SO THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED". This means that they REJECTED the Gospel Message for their salvation.

And, it is because of their actions, that God sent them a "strong delusion that they should believe the lie". Exactly what happened to Pharaoh, who first hardened his own heart, and then God hardened it also.

Verse 12 says, these are condemned, not because of Jesus not dying for them, but, they REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH of the Gospel, and actually "had pleasure in unrighteousness"

Very clear that God did not want these to go to hell, but they CHOSE to do so!

Also, in Acts chapter 13, verse 46

"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles"

These Jews REJECTED the Gospel of their salvation, and it was THEM, and not God, who considered themselves, "unworthy of everlasting life"

How do you explain these verse.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Obviously there are others.

Lets have a civil conversation.

 

[brightfame52]

Lol, thats your best bet at this point. You seem to promote what is called calminianism or amyaldism !

 

[atpollard]

Lol, thats your best bet at this point. You seem to promote what is called calminianism or amyaldism !

Nope [5 pointer].
Still waiting for you to actually ANSWER a question (but not holding my breath).

 

[brightfame52]

Nope [5 pointer].
Still waiting for you to actually ANSWER a question (but not holding my breath).

You have my answer, you dont like it though !

 

[Fastfredy0]

While the RESULT is a foregone conclusion (no opportunity), I suspect that the PROCESS and REALITY has a bit more subtlety to it. For example, Romans 1 states that all men are without excuse. This would suggest that HARD DETERMINISM (people are robots that do as God forced them to do) is false. Therefore, even the REPROBATE had an opportunity to repent and be saved … in spite of the fact that they cannot (because of their fallen nature) and will not (because they have no desire to - John 3:19-20). However, they received a warning and knew they were doing evil and SHOULD repent (just like every SMOKER knows they should quit smoking even if they never even try to quit).

Does that make any sense?

I think we're in agreement save for semantics.
I don't think people have an opportunity to be saved because God determines it 100% of the time. Since we can't change God's decree of the future I don't see there being an "opportunity" as I define the word.

Romans 1 states that all men are without excuse. This would suggest that HARD DETERMINISM (people are robots that do as God forced them to do) is false.

I would say we are without excuse because God says so and not because man has the ability to independently do "A" or not "A". To illustrate, I can show God is unjust from a human stand point. Consider:
Premise 1: John 3:18 but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God .... people who never heard of Christ go to hell (not talking about age of accountability ... let's keep it simple)
Premise 2: Billions are dead that never heard of Christ (keep it simple so talking about after Christ died)
Conclusion: God is not just because He has requirements for humans that they cannot achieve... now GOD is just so it must be true, but from a human standpoint the above does not seem just. Same idea with the word EXCUSE (giggle ... looks for lightning bolt to hit ... I'll probably get balled out like Job)

Similarly.... I think we have no choice when it comes to being given a 'sin nature'. It's not my pick, I was born with with evil desires (Romans 7:18). Being created with with an evil disposition seems like an good excuse from a human point of view ... Looks for lightning bolt again.

In the final analysis God is the potter and we are the clay and if He makes one vessel to be adopted as His son and another vessel to go to hell then that is justice even though neither vessel determined its fate (hard determinism). We are 'responsible' because a higher authority (the potter) says we are responsible and not because we are capable of obeying.
God is not partial to anyone (Job 37:7-8; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 4:19; Romans 9:11; Acts 10:34; Romans 11:34-35); He determines all things, everything goes His way. God accomplishes His purpose and not ours. We have no intrinsic worth. We work as designed; there is no other First Cause.

If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him [as Free WIllyism or compatibilism suggests], he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no other source of information but himself; and therefore what is eternally known by God must be initiated by God. Stephen Charnock and some of my editing

 

[electedbyHim]

I think we're in agreement save for semantics.
I don't think people have an opportunity to be saved because God determines it 100% of the time. Since we can't change God's decree of the future I don't see there being an "opportunity" as I define the word.


I would say we are without excuse because God says so and not because man has the ability to independently do "A" or not "A". To illustrate, I can show God is unjust from a human stand point. Consider:
Premise 1: John 3:18 but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God .... people who never heard of Christ go to hell (not talking about age of accountability ... let's keep it simple)
Premise 2: Billions are dead that never heard of Christ (keep it simple so talking about after Christ died)
Conclusion: God is not just because He has requirements for humans that they cannot achieve... now GOD is just so it must be true, but from a human standpoint the above does not seem just. Same idea with the word EXCUSE (giggle ... looks for lightning bolt to hit ... I'll probably get balled out like Job)

Similarly.... I think we have no choice when it comes to being given a 'sin nature'. It's not my pick, I was born with with evil desires (Romans 7:18). Being created with with an evil disposition seems like an good excuse from a human point of view ... Looks for lightning bolt again.

In the final analysis God is the potter and we are the clay and if He makes one vessel to be adopted as His son and another vessel to go to hell then that is justice even though neither vessel determined its fate (hard determinism). We are 'responsible' because a higher authority (the potter) says we are responsible and not because we are capable of obeying.
God is not partial to anyone (Job 37:7-8; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 4:19; Romans 9:11; Acts 10:34; Romans 11:34-35); He determines all things, everything goes His way. God accomplishes His purpose and not ours. We have no intrinsic worth. We work as designed; there is no other First Cause.

If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him [as Free WIllyism or compatibilism suggests], he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no other source of information but himself; and therefore what is eternally known by God must be initiated by God. Stephen Charnock and some of my editing

Very well written.

 

[JJonas]

or they didnt perform the condition the condition of faith or believing in Him, which makes for them salvation by works

Do you equate “believing in Him” with “salvation by works”?!?

“Perform the condition of faith” is a fanciful statement, because faith isn't created by any performance from man, but alone from the Word of God (Rom 10:17)

 

[brightfame52]

JJonas

Do you equate “believing in Him” with “salvation by works”?!?

If you make believing a condition one must perform before God saves them, YES its works

 

[JJonas]

JJonas



If you make believing a condition one must perform before God saves them, YES its works

Did you read Rom. 10:17 which I mentioned?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

There is no such thing in the Bible as believing to be something that someone could perform. Faith, through which we are saved, has nothing to do with man's performance, but finds its origin in the Word of God, so that God gets all the glory for our salvation:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

It is however true that the Bible commands men to believe (e.g. John 14:11), but this fact can in no way nullify the testimony that the Bible gives on the Faith as originating from the Word of God and as being a free gift of God! By the way, the command to believe also belongs to the Word of God, which can therefore produce faith in those who heard it!

Instead of making non-biblical assumptions, can you please stay on the ground of the biblical revelation (Titus 1:9) so that we can have a fruitful discussion that can edify us in our holy faith (Jude 1:20)?