Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

Hi chessman. What do you think about this verse made by Jesus....John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That's a great scripture, sir.

Thank you for your honesty when looking into the whole counsel of truth.

If one of His apostles became lost, then that means at one time they were His, they belonged to Him, and became lost.

This is what Jesus teaches us in the parable of the lost sheep.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

A person who is one of "His sheep", and then becomes lost, is likened to a "sinner" in need of repentance.


Likewise, the parable of the prodigal son, teaches us exactly the same principle, using the same language.

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32

• Lost = Sinner in need of repentance. Dead to God.
• Found = Restored to God. Alive to God.

JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Jesus did empower Judas Iscariot to do these things, which is why I believe Judas Iscariot believed for a while.

The act of betrayal by Judas Iscariot was for ordained. (John 17:11-13) (Zach. 11:12 + Matt. 26:14-15) (Psalms 55: 12-18 + (Matt. 26:50) Matt. 26:49-50) (Zach. 11:13 + Matt. 27:5-7) 9Rom. 9:14-24) (Zach. 13:7 + Matt 26:56). None of the disciples were saved at this time, it was only after the resurrection that salvation was possible. They were kept safe for the salvation that was to come. Book of Acts.

 

[Chopper]

That's a great scripture, sir.

Thank you for your honesty when looking into the whole counsel of truth.

If one of His apostles became lost, then that means at one time they were His, they belonged to Him, and became lost.

This is what Jesus teaches us in the parable of the lost sheep.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

A person who is one of "His sheep", and then becomes lost, is likened to a "sinner" in need of repentance.


Likewise, the parable of the prodigal son, teaches us exactly the same principle, using the same language.

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32

• Lost = Sinner in need of repentance. Dead to God.
• Found = Restored to God. Alive to God.

JLB

That is how I understand it my friend. Lost is lost.

 

[chessman]

What do you think about this verse made by Jesus....John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I think Jesus told the Truth. None of His real disciples perished. Judas was a false friend in accordance with Psalm 41. Judas was the one who Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him, way before it ever happened. He even revealed that truth to His disciples at the first of His ministry and at the last, before Judas guided the guards.

John 6:70-71 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him. ​

John 13:11 (LEB) For he knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.” ​

John 17:11-12, 20-21 (LEB) And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. When I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given to me, and guarded them, and none of them has perished except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture would be fulfilled. ​

Judas perished (was lost to destruction/perdition) because God's Word said it would happen in Psalm 41 and 109 , John 6 and John 13. It had to happen that Judas' days were few but the one's given to Jesus by the Father have endless days (eternal life). Just as it has to be True that all who believe will never perish. Jesus prayed for it to be this way. Poof, Case closed.

“And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, ​

"All" believers never perish. He even told us why this has to be True:

in order that the world may believe that you sent me. ​

 

[Chopper]

I think Jesus told the Truth. None of His real disciples perished. Judas was a false friend in accordance with Psalm 41. Judas was the one who Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him, way before it ever happened. He even revealed that truth to His disciples at the first of His ministry and at the last, before Judas guided the guards.

John 6:70-71 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him. ​

John 13:11 (LEB) For he knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.” ​

John 17:11-12, 20-21 (LEB) And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. When I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given to me, and guarded them, and none of them has perished except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture would be fulfilled. ​

Judas perished (was lost to destruction/perdition) because God's Word said it would happen in Psalm 41 and 109 , John 6 and John 13. It had to happen that Judas' days were few but the one's given to Jesus by the Father have endless days (eternal life). Just as it has to be True that all who believe will never perish. Jesus prayed for it to be this way. Poof, Case closed.

“And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, ​

"All" believers never perish. He even told us why this has to be True:

in order that the world may believe that you sent me. ​

Ok chessman. Thank you for putting it plain out there. Like you say "Case Closed"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JLB]

I think Jesus told the Truth. None of His real disciples perished. Judas was a false friend in accordance with Psalm 41.

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18

The scripture does not say Judas was a false friend, which of course is why you didn't quote the scripture, but only tagged your opinion with a scripture reference.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9


This says Judas was a familiar friend that was trusted, in which we know that later turned against Jesus and betrayed Him.


Judas went from being a disciple, an apostle and trusted friend of Jesus, who believed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God, to becoming a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

The act of betrayal by Judas Iscariot was for ordained. (John 17:11-13) (Zach. 11:12 + Matt. 26:14-15) (Psalms 55: 12-18 + (Matt. 26:50) Matt. 26:49-50) (Zach. 11:13 + Matt. 27:5-7) 9Rom. 9:14-24) (Zach. 13:7 + Matt 26:56). None of the disciples were saved at this time, it was only after the resurrection that salvation was possible. They were kept safe for the salvation that was to come. Book of Acts.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.



JLB

 

[chessman]

The scripture does not say Judas was a false friend,

Psalm 41 is a prohecy about a false friend of Jesus which was fullfilled in Judas.

Psalm 41:6-9 And when he comes to see me, he speaks falsehood; His heart gathers wickedness to itself; When he goes outside, he tells it. All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. ​

 

[JLB]

Psalm 41 is a prohecy about a false friend of Jesus which was fullfilled in Judas.

Psalm 41:6-9 And when he comes to see me, he speaks falsehood; His heart gathers wickedness to itself; When he goes outside, he tells it. All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. ​

The scripture does not say Judas was a false friend.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9


This says Judas was a familiar friend that was trusted, in which we know that later turned against Jesus and betrayed Him.

Verse 6 is a reference to Davids enemies, not friends, but enemies that speak lies about him.

I said, “Lord, be merciful to me;
Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You.”
5 My enemies speak evil of me:
“When will he die, and his name perish?”
6 And if he comes to see me, he speaks lies;
His heart gathers iniquity to itself;
When he goes out, he tells it.
Psalm 41:5-6


Verse 9 from which John quotes about Judas, quotes verse 9, which contrast's the enemies and says "even my own familiar friend"...

Even my friend, as in contrast to my enemies...

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.


Judas went from being a disciple, an apostle and trusted friend of Jesus, who believed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God, to becoming a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16



JLB

 

[Chopper]

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18

The scripture does not say Judas was a false friend, which of course is why you didn't quote the scripture, but only tagged your opinion with a scripture reference.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9


This says Judas was a familiar friend that was trusted, in which we know that later turned against Jesus and betrayed Him.


Judas went from being a disciple, an apostle and trusted friend of Jesus, who believed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God, to becoming a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16



JLB

You know JLB? I really wonder just how much Judas, in his heart, knew about Jesus. Do you suppose that he believed right along with Peter and was somehow defenseless against Satan and prior prophesies that he would turn a traitor? Hmm.

 

[JLB]

You know JLB? I really wonder just how much Judas, in his heart, knew about Jesus. Do you suppose that he believed right along with Peter and was somehow defenseless against Satan and prior prophesies that he would turn a traitor? Hmm.

Judas like Peter, and the rest of us had flaws.

I just can't ignore the many things the scriptures teach us about Judas, and how he was destined to be in the book of life, and be in the eternal leadership with Jesus, sitting on one of the twelve thrones along with the other 11.

Judas was a disciple, one of His sheep, who like the parable teaches, "became lost", and never came back like the prodigal son, but hung himself in a time of bitter depression, rather than running back to Jesus to be forgiven.

The scriptures reveal that God foresaw this, from the foundation of the world.

Judas Iscariot actually walked this earth with Jesus Christ, and was a faithful disciple, when other disciples turned back from following Him.


I consider Judas a much better man than myself, and I choose to learn from his mistakes, and come to the Lord in openness and honesty confessing my sin and not trying to hide my faults and weaknesses but asking Him as a helpless child to cleanse me and lead me in the paths of righteousness, filling me with the Spirit of the fear of the Lord, so that it would become to me as a fountain of life, turning me from the snares of death.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


This attitude has been the catalyst to me being cleansed, by His grace, of many sinful habits in my life, and continues to allow me to see and believe His word, so that I may continue to grow up into Him, and not be blinded by the deception that remains in my flesh.


We can learn from Judas, that he entertained the evil that comes from the love of money, which in my opinion was how Satan gained access to Judas and ended up entering him, and manipulated Judas to conspire with the Chief priest's to murder Jesus.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Judas like Peter, and the rest of us had flaws.

I just can't ignore the many things the scriptures teach us about Judas, and how he was destined to be in the book of life, and be in the eternal leadership with Jesus, sitting on one of the twelve thrones along with the other 11.

Judas was a disciple, one of His sheep, who like the parable teaches, "became lost", and never came back like the prodigal son, but hung himself in a time of bitter depression, rather than running back to Jesus to be forgiven.

The scriptures reveal that God foresaw this, from the foundation of the world.

Judas Iscariot actually walked this earth with Jesus Christ, and was a faithful disciple, when other disciples turned back from following Him.


I consider Judas a much better man than myself, and I choose to learn from his mistakes, and come to the Lord in openness and honesty confessing my sin and not trying to hide my faults and weaknesses but asking Him as a helpless child to cleanse me and lead me in the paths of righteousness, filling me with the Spirit of the fear of the Lord, so that it would become to me as a fountain of life, turning me from the snares of death.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


This attitude has been the catalyst to me being cleansed, by His grace, of many sinful habits in my life, and continues to allow me to see and believe His word, so that I may continue to grow up into Him, and not be blinded by the deception that remains in my flesh.


We can learn from Judas, that he entertained the evil that comes from the love of money, which in my opinion was how Satan gained access to Judas and ended up entering him, and manipulated Judas to conspire with the Chief priest's to murder Jesus.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The one thing that you are ignoring is that Jesus said that Judas, the son of perdition, was lost. John 17:12

Perdition: entire loss, utter destruction.

Was Jesus lying when he said the Judas was the son of perdition?
Scripture trumps opinions.

 

[chessman]

This says Judas was a familiar friend that was trusted, in which we know that later turned against Jesus and betrayed Him.

The third stanza (v7-9) is about all those that hate him. They all merely profess friendship but secretly hate him (Him). Even the one (Judas) that was close to him (i.e. a false friend)

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Psalmist in Sickness Complains of Enemies and False Friends.

Psalm 41:7-9 All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. ​

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. ​

 

[Douglas Summers]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.



JLB

I'm sorry you thought it was an opinion. Study the Scriptures. We do not depend upon our own understanding, but the teaching of The Holy Spirit.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.



JLB

The Church: The Church in Scripture is The living body of Christ made up of all Born again believers, We are His body and He is the head of that body. (1 Cor. 12:27) (1 Cor. 12:12-13) (Rom. 12:4-5) (Eph. 1:22, Eph. 2:19-22, Eph. 4:4, Eph. 5:23) (Col. 1:24).

• The Church before the cross would have been a sinful Church
• The Church before the resurrection would have been a headless Church
• The Church before the indwelling Holy Ghost would have been a Spiritless Church
• The birth of the Church is in Acts 2:1-47

That is when Salvation had it's power over death by faith to the born again believers. Those who profess to be Christians are tares (2 Pet. 2:9-22), the Born again are wheat in God's fertile fields.

 

[JLB]

The Church: The Church in Scripture is The living body of Christ made up of all Born again believers, We are His body and He is the head of that body. (1 Cor. 12:27) (1 Cor. 12:12-13) (Rom. 12:4-5) (Eph. 1:22, Eph. 2:19-22, Eph. 4:4, Eph. 5:23) (Col. 1:24).

Do you believe that Abraham is part of God's Kingdom?



JLB

 

[JLB]

The third stanza (v7-9) is about all those that hate him. They all merely profess friendship but secretly hate him (Him). Even the one (Judas) that was close to him (i.e. a false friend)

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Psalmist in Sickness Complains of Enemies and False Friends.

Psalm 41:7-9 All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. ​

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. ​

Sorry, but the scripture is clear.

David speaks of his enemies, then says EVEN my close friend in whom I trusted...


On the one hand his enemies speak against him, on the other his close friend turns against him.



Thanks for making my point.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Sorry, but the scripture is clear.

David speaks of his enemies, then says EVEN my close friend in whom I trusted...

If you only read/accept the parts you chose to highlight, you have your own clarity already.

Thanks for making my point

 

[JLB]

If you only read/accept the parts you chose to highlight, you have your own clarity already.

Thanks for making my point

Psalm 41:7-9 All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.


Judas Iscariot was a disciple, an apostle and a close trusted friend, who became a traitor.

on the other hand

A Pharisee, who was the enemy of Jesus, became an apostle, and His friend.


In each case, they were the one thing, then became the other.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Judas Iscariot was a disciple, an apostle and a close trusted friend, who became a traitor.

And Judas Iscariot was a devil during the time you claim he was saved. Judas was chosen to specifically fulfill what was written in Psalm 41.

John 6:70-71 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

Psalm 41:7-9 All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt, saying, “A wicked thing is poured out upon him, That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.” Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. ​

Judas fullfilled all of the above even eating His bread. Which is why Jesus chose him. What he did not have, was to ever have the Holy Spirit indwelling that the others obtained at Pentecost.

The 11 became saved, not Judas.