Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[Randy]

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

satan believes

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

Or he loved money more than he loved God. 30 pieces of silver was a very large sum of money for him.

 

[Chopper]

satan believes

Or he loved money more than he loved God. 30 pieces of silver was a very large sum of money for him.

I agree Randy. JLB and chessman were debating this....

So, do you think Judas will sit on a throne with the other 11 disciples?

I don't believe that Jesus Who had omniscience would have included Judas. Probably.... Acts 1:24 "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So, Matthias would sit on a throne, not Judas!!

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Jesus chose the 12 apostles and Judas because he betrayed Jesus will not set on a throne with the other 11. It is my belief that the 12th will be Paul because like the other 11 he was chosen by Jesus on the Damascus road.

 

[JLB]

So, do you think Judas will sit on a throne with the other 11 disciples?

Did Jesus say this to His twelve disciples?

The answer is yes.

Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

...you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones.

Judas was included in the twelve disciples, when Jesus said these words to them.

Judas ended up losing his place in Gods kingdom, because he became a traitor.

I think we can all learn from this example, so that we will not lose our place in God's kingdom.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, Matthias would sit on a throne, not Judas!!

That may very well be.

However, that is not how it started out, as we can see from what Jesus said.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

This was said to the twelve, Judas included.

Matthias was not with them at the time, so from the two that had been with the twelve, the lot fell on Matthias.

It was Judas who was appointed and ordained as an apostle with the others, having been faithful as a disciple.

However, he became a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-16

Just as Paul was an enemy of the Church, but became an apostle.


I would sure like to see some scriptures that teach us someone can follow the Lord for 3 1/2 years as a disciple and then be promoted to an apostle, and be sent out to preach the Gospel by Jesus Himself, but never believed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

dirtfarmer here

Jesus chose the 12 apostles and Judas because he betrayed Jesus will not set on a throne with the other 11. It is my belief that the 12th will be Paul because like the other 11 he was chosen by Jesus on the Damascus road.

It could very well be Paul, or Matthias.

However, it was Judas who originally appointed to one of the twelve thrones.

He lost his place in God's kingdom because he became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


Paul was a persecutor and enemy of the Church, then became an apostle, part of God's kingdom.

How can someone be a traitor of the Kingdom of God, who has never been a part of The Kingdom of God?

A traitor by definition is someone who defects and joins the other side, having betrayed his own country.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Jesus didn't say Judas missed out on the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and thus was never saved.

Jesus didn't say;
Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

Those are your man-made words.

Making up things Jesus didn't say, won't change what He did in fact say.

During the time you said Jesus loved Judas as the Father loves the Son and Judas was "saved for a while", Jesus said (John 6:70-71 NKJV):

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”​

John said:

He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

Jesus made an assured promise to those in the regeneration, that they would sit on 12 thrones:

Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Matthew 19:28


After Judas had been told to leave the group at The Last Supper, Jesus said to the 11:

Luke 22:28-30 (NKJV) “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” ​

Without Judas present with them, Jesus promised the Disciples the Holy Spirit:

John 14:26 (NKJV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. ​

Without Judas present the 11 disciples plus Matthias added did, in fact, receive the Holy Spirit in one accord as promised.

Acts 1:26 Acts 2:1-4 (NKJV) And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. ​

So, do you think Judas will sit on a throne with the other 11 disciples?

You quoted my question then didn't answer it.

 

[JLB]

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

Do you believe it is possible for a believer to steal and still be a believer?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus didn't say;
Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

Those are your man-made words.

Making up things Jesus didn't say, won't change what He did in fact say.

During the time you said Jesus loved Judas as the Father loves the Son and Judas was "saved for a while", Jesus said (John 6:70-71 NKJV):

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”​

John said:

He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

Jesus made an assured promise to those in the regeneration, that they would sit on 12 thrones:

Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Matthew 19:28


After Judas had been told to leave the group at The Last Supper, Jesus said to the 11:

Luke 22:28-30 (NKJV) “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” ​

Without Judas present with them, Jesus promised the Disciples the Holy Spirit:

John 14:26 (NKJV) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. ​

Without Judas present the 11 disciples plus Matthias added did, in fact, receive the Holy Spirit in one accord as promised.

Acts 1:26 Acts 2:1-4 (NKJV) And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. ​

You quoted my question then didn't answer it.

What question

 

[Chopper]

dirtfarmer here

Jesus chose the 12 apostles and Judas because he betrayed Jesus will not set on a throne with the other 11. It is my belief that the 12th will be Paul because like the other 11 he was chosen by Jesus on the Damascus road.

You are probably right. Matthias, as far as we know, did very little. The Apostle Paul, on the other hand certainly is worthy of that remaining throne. Thank you for the reminder, you old dirtfarmer. I can say that because I'm a dirt bag.

 

[Chopper]

That may very well be.

However, that is not how it started out, as we can see from what Jesus said.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

This was said to the twelve, Judas included.

Matthias was not with them at the time, so from the two that had been with the twelve, the lot fell on Matthias.

It was Judas who was appointed and ordained as an apostle with the others, having been faithful as a disciple.

However, he became a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-16

Just as Paul was an enemy of the Church, but became an apostle.


I would sure like to see some scriptures that teach us someone can follow the Lord for 3 1/2 years as a disciple and then be promoted to an apostle, and be sent out to preach the Gospel by Jesus Himself, but never believed.


JLB

Actually, my old friend, I agree with you. It would just be like Jesus to include Judas so that he would feel included with the rest of the Disciples. With the absence of Satan, Judas would have continued. Judas liked a five fingered discount, but so do lots of Believers.

 

[JohnDB]

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

Do not muzzle the oxen when treading out the grain...
A workman deserves his wages...

Paul taught these things.
How do you perceive that Judas couldn't help himself to some poor box money if he needed something?
Later Jesus himself tells them to get a coin purse (divide the money obviously) and a sword.

How is this different than what Judas did?

 

[abide]

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

How long will this post go on

 

[Chopper]

Do you believe it is possible for a believer to steal and still be a believer?


JLB

Of course. My thinking was, next to Jesus? would I steal? NO!

 

[Chopper]

How long will this post go on

If you don't like it, don't keep coming to it. We all have ideas that we like to run past our friends and find freedom in continuing a thread as long as someone has something to add.

 

[Chopper]

Do not muzzle the oxen when treading out the grain...
A workman deserves his wages...

Paul taught these things.
How do you perceive that Judas couldn't help himself to some poor box money if he needed something?
Later Jesus himself tells them to get a coin purse (divide the money obviously) and a sword.

How is this different than what Judas did?

Ok, point made, I agree.

 

[smaller]

Do you believe it is possible for a believer to steal and still be a believer?

JLB

Even the mere thought of "theft" makes the person a thief.

Matt. 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Most of your positions still suffer under the delusion that if an external act of sin is not committed, the believer is not a sinner, which of course is NOT the truth.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Seems clear enough. NO ONE will avoid being a sinner on the above basis of measure. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19. There is not one person who is EVER sinless other than Jesus, God Himself, when He was in pre-Glorified flesh. The works salvation camps have sold a lot of believers a phony bill of goods masquerading as 'real christianity.' It's not. It's just another lie.

Matt. 5:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

There isn't a person who has posted in this thread who's sin is one bit better than that of Judas.

Sorry to break y'all's bubbles.

 

[chessman]

What question

The one you quoted in reply to me but didn't answer, oddly enough. Here it is again:

So, do you think Judas will sit on a throne with the other 11 disciples?

 

[Chopper]

Even the mere thought of "theft" makes the person a thief.

Matt. 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Most of your positions still suffer under the delusion that if an external act of sin is not committed, the believer is not a sinner, which of course is NOT the truth.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Seems clear enough. NO ONE will avoid being a sinner on the above basis of measure. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19. There is not one person who is EVER sinless other than Jesus, God Himself, when He was in pre-Glorified flesh. The works salvation camps have sold a lot of believers a phony bill of goods masquerading as 'real christianity.' It's not. It's just another lie.

Matt. 5:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

There isn't a person who has posted in this thread who's sin is one bit better than that of Judas.

Sorry to break y'all's bubbles.

 

[smaller]

I think you know well enough by now that LIFE arises from the ash heap Chopper.

Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

A lot of times we get this idea we are trying to "save ourselves" but the opposite is the case. We are trying to ditch ourselves and seek only Him and His Perfection. Which only HE has to give.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

It may seem an odd turnabout to some, but by FAITH in Christ, we are to understand that technically, we don't even exist:

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are as much "nothing" as Judas is "nothing."

How much Grace and Mercy in Christ we will be led to share and see for others, such as Judas or our neighbors, will obviously vary, and that may very well be in accordance with how we see ourselves.

The "better" we see ourselves increases the probability of how much LESS we see others, such as Judas, our fellow believers, and our neighbors.

I like to see y'all as dead. No offense, but it really is 'necessary sight' for me to keep me from falling in judgment and the condemnation of the devil.

But in Christ, ALIVE, A Perfect Picture. Even though the painting isn't quite finished yet.