Judas - was he saved?

[Dorothy Mae]

Matthew 26:24; John 6:64-71; 12:1-8; 13:10-11; 13:18-19

Judas was never a true believer, but was a hypocrite, a thief and never believed in Jesus. Yes, Jesus chose him as one of the twelve, but for the fulfilling of prophecy that Jesus would be betrayed. I feel that Judas had remorse for what he did trying to give the money back and through his grief hung himself. But no, he was never saved as he died an unrepented thief.

Do you believe Judas ever had a chance to be saved?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All who deny Christ are lost to Him.

So he lost some he never had in the first place?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It had belonged to my father before me. It was never the employee's, but he lost it.

Just messin’

Cute. You’re playing with words, of course.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Matthew 26:24; John 6:64-71; 12:1-8; 13:10-11; 13:18-19

Judas was never a true believer, but was a hypocrite, a thief and never believed in Jesus. Yes, Jesus chose him as one of the twelve, but for the fulfilling of prophecy that Jesus would be betrayed. I feel that Judas had remorse for what he did trying to give the money back and through his grief hung himself. But no, he was never saved as he died an unrepented thief.

So by this way of seeing it, Jesus wasn’t really betrayed as Judas was not chosen to be a beloved disciple but to play a role. One can picture Jesus rejoicing that a scripture was fulfilled and not at all sorrowful that a trusted member of the team betrayed him.

The problem is often one looks at the end and assumes it was always that way. The possibility that men change their minds during the course of their lives is not considered.

 

[Exeter]

So he lost some he never had in the first place?

That's not how it reads. In the context He was given 12 Foundational Disciples of whom He kept 11 and lost 1. He also lost followers.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Judas acted of his own freewill from day one, so the false doctrine of Predetermined Reprobation cannot be applied to explain his act of betrayal.

John 12:5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?” 6 Judas did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money bag, he used to take from what was put into it.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[PeterJens]

What was surprising to me was the hate that some christians demonstrate towards those who don’t hold their theology. Reminds one of the hatred the religious leaders had towards Jesus or towards the true prophets of God, most of whom were murdered. It’s a lesson in character development to learn to answer with grace in those cases as well as (more importantly) not to let hatred grow in your own heart.

I agree it is hard not to be provoked to being hurt. What changes is when you understand how trapped these folk are. How can one claim to know Jesus whose central theme is letting love flow from us to others and who loved us so much He died for us, yet these folk talk as if love has never come in and transformed them. We are called to be like Jesus, follow His example, lay down our lives, not raise protest against sinners lost in sin, doomed to destruction.

One member thought sinning against me, lying, to provoke me to anger and show my pride, was the way to show me I was a sinner incapable of loving, because the love I expressed was only a learnt superficial love from church groups. He described me as like he was 20 years ago. I was not that man so he got more and more angry, because a loving response to him made no sense, unless of course I actually knew what love was and Jesus, and he was lost in this world of unresolved sinners.

I talked with him about being yoked to Jesus, learning from Him and walking as he walked. He realised this meant we are called to follow, which could be seen as conditional salvation, so rejected it. I then suggested that he was therefore rejecting Christ and His ways, and denying our need for communion and life. The next day he changed his position, realising he could not hold it and stay a follower of Jesus. I wept for him, because how lost can you be if you deny Jesus to maintain a theological position and are not struck to the heart this denies the very faith one claims to follow.

I myself can fall into this same trap, justifying some behaviour or attitude which Jesus would not have. So I am not defending my status, but rather shinning a light on the road we must follow.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's not how it reads. In the context He was given 12 Foundational Disciples of whom He kept 11 and lost 1. He also lost followers.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Judas acted of his own freewill from day one, so the false doctrine of Predetermined Reprobation cannot be applied to explain his act of betrayal.

John 12:5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?” 6 Judas did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money bag, he used to take from what was put into it.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

I agree. I was voicing their view.

 

[Exeter]

I agree. I was voicing their view.

That's good.

We can safely say that sin has Divinely Predetermined consequences.

Mat 26:21-24 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." (22) And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?" (23) He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. (24) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's good.

We can safely say that sin has Divinely Predetermined consequences.

Mat 26:21-24 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." (22) And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?" (23) He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. (24) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

Sin definitely has predetermined and sometimes quite explainable natural consequences.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you believe Judas ever had a chance to be saved?

Of course if he would have repented and turned back to God. No matter what one does they always have a chance to repent and come to God.

 

[for_his_glory]

So by this way of seeing it, Jesus wasn’t really betrayed as Judas was not chosen to be a beloved disciple but to play a role. One can picture Jesus rejoicing that a scripture was fulfilled and not at all sorrowful that a trusted member of the team betrayed him.

The problem is often one looks at the end and assumes it was always that way. The possibility that men change their minds during the course of their lives is not considered.

Jesus would have never rejoiced over the decision that Judas planned to betray Jesus as the love of money is what destroyed Judas.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians for their rebellion against Him for one example.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you believe any of the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ were saved, as they were following Him during these three and a half years?

I believe at first they knew Jesus as a prophet/teacher sent to them, but wasn't until Jesus walked on water in Matthew 14:22-33 that they believed He truly was the Son of God. IMO, I think that Judas was one who only gave lip service to the Lord, but denied the power thereof, 2 Timothy 3:5.

According to Matthew 24:13 no one is saved unless they endure in Christ until the end. (Own death or the return of Christ) Judas never endured in Christ, but through greed sold Him out to the Roman guards. It was only after seeing Jesus beaten and crucified that he felt remorse for what he did, but instead of asking God for forgiveness he hung himself instead.

 

[for_his_glory]

Judas will be saved along with all mankind and will need to endure the purifying lake of fire where he will confess Yeshua as the Christ.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The lake of fire is not a purifying fire, but final destination of eternal torment after God's final judgement for rejecting God and His Son Christ Jesus. Judas will have his part in the second death being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

According to Matthew 24:13 no one is saved unless they endure in Christ until the end.

There is no doubt that we all must endure to the end, in order to be saved. On this I believe we agree.


Of course, I don’t believe Judas was saved when he died.


However, that’s not the point I made. The point I made is about what the scriptures teach us about Judas. Based on the scriptures, I believe he was predestined to live on and reign with Christ and the other 11 in the age to come. I believe he was saved for a while, he was at one time “right with God”, or “just”, then became “lost” as teaching from the parable of the sower, illustrates he “fell away” which means he turned away or deserted Christ.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Here in verse 12, we see the reason that prevented these folks in ths verse from being saved, was the did not “believe”. Thus Jesus sets the condition for salvation, which is to “believe”.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Now in the next verse we see…

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


I believe this teaching illustrates the life of Judas Iscariot, in that he fell away from Christ; he deserted Christ.



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe at first they knew Jesus as a prophet/teacher sent to them, but wasn't until Jesus walked on water in Matthew 14:22-33 that they believed He truly was the Son of God. IMO, I think that Judas was one who only gave lip service to the Lord, but denied the power thereof, 2 Timothy 3:5.

According to Matthew 24:13 no one is saved unless they endure in Christ until the end. (Own death or the return of Christ) Judas never endured in Christ, but through greed sold Him out to the Roman guards. It was only after seeing Jesus beaten and crucified that he felt remorse for what he did, but instead of asking God for forgiveness he hung himself instead.

Judas performed all the same miracles all the others did. There’s no reason to think he was giving lip service but denying the power. He healed the sick same as the others.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is no doubt that we all must endure to the end, in order to be saved. On this I believe we agree.


Of course, I don’t believe Judas was saved when he died.


However, that’s not the point I made. The point I made is about what the scriptures teach us about Judas. Based on the scriptures, I believe he was predestined to live on and reign with Christ and the other 11 in the age to come. I believe he was saved for a while, he was at one time “right with God”, or “just”, then became “lost” as teaching from the parable of the sower, illustrates he “fell away” which means he turned away or deserted Christ.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Here in verse 12, we see the reason that prevented these folks in ths verse from being saved, was the did not “believe”. Thus Jesus sets the condition for salvation, which is to “believe”.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Now in the next verse we see…

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


I believe this teaching illustrates the life of Judas Iscariot, in that he fell away from Christ; he deserted Christ.



JLB

Well said! I agree! What we see in Judas is change over the passage of time. That probably began when he gave into temptation and started stealing money out of the purse. He stole the money needed to eat from his brothers. This was likely the false and serious step. This was also likely the point where Jesus knew he was going to betray him if he didn’t repent.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree it is hard not to be provoked to being hurt. What changes is when you understand how trapped these folk are. How can one claim to know Jesus whose central theme is letting love flow from us to others and who loved us so much He died for us, yet these folk talk as if love has never come in and transformed them. We are called to be like Jesus, follow His example, lay down our lives, not raise protest against sinners lost in sin, doomed to destruction.

One member thought sinning against me, lying, to provoke me to anger and show my pride, was the way to show me I was a sinner incapable of loving, because the love I expressed was only a learnt superficial love from church groups. He described me as like he was 20 years ago. I was not that man so he got more and more angry, because a loving response to him made no sense, unless of course I actually knew what love was and Jesus, and he was lost in this world of unresolved sinners.

I talked with him about being yoked to Jesus, learning from Him and walking as he walked. He realised this meant we are called to follow, which could be seen as conditional salvation, so rejected it. I then suggested that he was therefore rejecting Christ and His ways, and denying our need for communion and life. The next day he changed his position, realising he could not hold it and stay a follower of Jesus. I wept for him, because how lost can you be if you deny Jesus to maintain a theological position and are not struck to the heart this denies the very faith one claims to follow.

I myself can fall into this same trap, justifying some behaviour or attitude which Jesus would not have. So I am not defending my status, but rather shinning a light on the road we must follow.

God bless you

You know what might help christians in this regard? Less teaching on how God loves them the same no matter how they behave (which isn’t true) and instead teach them that they are responsible (not the Holy Spirit) for the kind of person they become and will one day stand before Jesus and give an answer as to how they talked to others (among other matters.) Paul was very aware of the judgement he would face.

 

[PeterJens]

There is no doubt that we all must endure to the end, in order to be saved. On this I believe we agree.


Of course, I don’t believe Judas was saved when he died.


However, that’s not the point I made. The point I made is about what the scriptures teach us about Judas. Based on the scriptures, I believe he was predestined to live on and reign with Christ and the other 11 in the age to come. I believe he was saved for a while, he was at one time “right with God”, or “just”, then became “lost” as teaching from the parable of the sower, illustrates he “fell away” which means he turned away or deserted Christ.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Here in verse 12, we see the reason that prevented these folks in ths verse from being saved, was the did not “believe”. Thus Jesus sets the condition for salvation, which is to “believe”.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Now in the next verse we see…

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


I believe this teaching illustrates the life of Judas Iscariot, in that he fell away from Christ; he deserted Christ.



JLB

Emotional meaning or factual meaning.
I have come to see words can speak to two different worlds. Emotionally if Judas stays in the vine, faithful and true he will reign with Christ. So Jesus speaks emotionally, not prophetically with actual individual outcomes.


Factually Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. He spoke factually about this also. It is hard to see these two worlds overlaid over each other. So certain teachers will take the emotional promises and apply the factually while denying this context.

Jesus declared he will say to some I never knew you, which is an emotional response, though Jesus knows everyone but not as friends. When one thinks of marriage and divorce these realities of emotional and relationship truths become very clear.


The light of repentance is always simple but costly. That is no excuse before the Lord, just delusion if in the day of repentance one dies not repenting. One poster on a forum was a pastor who asked should they love everyone? They passed away a few months later. A blind leader......


God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Emotional meaning or factual meaning.
I have come to see words can speak to two different worlds. Emotionally if Judas stays in the vine, faithful and true he will reign with Christ. So Jesus speaks emotionally, not prophetically with actual individual outcomes.


Factually Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. He spoke factually about this also. It is hard to see these two worlds overlaid over each other. So certain teachers will take the emotional promises and apply the factually while denying this context.

Jesus declared he will say to some I never knew you, which is an emotional response, though Jesus knows everyone but not as friends. When one thinks of marriage and divorce these realities of emotional and relationship truths become very clear.


The light of repentance is always simple but costly. That is no excuse before the Lord, just delusion if in the day of repentance one dies not repenting. One poster on a forum was a pastor who asked should they love everyone? They passed away a few months later. A blind leader......


God bless you

Where is it written that Judas, and no other was predestined to betray Jesus? I don’t see that. Can you please provide further evidence of this position please?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

None of the conversation so far addresses the fact that Jesus Himself categorises Judas as lost by virtue of him being a devil and a son of perdition, so definitely, unequivocably not saved.

Joh 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (71) He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Quote from Bible Believer's Commentary on John17:12:
While He was with the disciples, the Savior kept them in the Father's name, that is, by His power and authority, and true to Him. “None of them is lost,” said Jesus, “except the son of perdition,” that is, Judas. But this did not mean that Judas was one of those given to the Son by the Father or that he was ever a genuine believer. The sentence means this: “Those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition is lost, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” The title “the son of perdition” means Judas was consigned to eternal ruin or damnation. Judas was not compelled to betray Christ in order to fulfill prophecy, but he chose to betray the Savior and in so doing the Scripture was fulfilled.

Only at the end, not at the beginning.