Judas - was he saved?

[JLB]

I never said that Judas did not have freewill, but that even though he followed the other disciples he still had a heart of a thief and the love of money was more important to him.

I personally don’t know when the love money became more important to Judas.


I do know He was the Father’s and the Father gave Judas to His Son.

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. John 17:9


I know Judas was called to be a disciple and that he was promoted to an apostle, in which he was sent out with the other eleven to preach the gospel, cast out devils, heal the sick and raise the dead.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4


I also know Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


To me Judas is a good example to all of us, so that we give heed to what Paul taught us…


Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Corinthians 10:12


Peter says it this way —

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 2 Peter 3:17





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I personally don’t know when the love money became more important to Judas.

John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

1. Judas was a thief
2. Satan entered into him after receiving the sop and he immediately went out from among them
3.Went straight to the chief priest to bargain with them to betray Jesus
4. Never repented, but only felt remorse after seeing that Jesus was to be crucified and went and hung himself.

Does any of this sound like he was of the Father and a true disciple of Jesus? It doesn't sound like it to me. Someone who is a true follower of Jesus would not sell Him out.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

1. Judas was a thief

No one is a thief UNTIL they steal. No one is born a thief.

2. Satan entered into him after receiving the sop and he immediately went out from among them

Anyone who steals is doing so under Satans influence, I can assure you. Do you accept this?

3.Went straight to the chief priest to bargain with them to betray Jesus
4. Never repented, but only felt remorse after seeing that Jesus was to be crucified and went and hung himself.

Does any of this sound like he was of the Father and a true disciple of Jesus?

. What you are missing is changes over time. Jesus talked a great deal about taking care lest changes in us happen over time such that we lose the faith. It happens if we don’t take care that this doesn’t happen to us.

You know, we could give you lots of accounts of people who did things that don’t sound like they belonged to God. And at that point in time they didn’t or maybe they did. Btw, do you believe OSAS or do you believe that deeds show whether one is saved or not? You seem to believe the latter. Is this correct?

It doesn't sound like it to me. Someone who is a true follower of Jesus would not sell Him out.

So a true follower of Jesus can never turn back, once having his hand on the plow? He can never fall away from the faith and betray anyone? Persecution or the pleasures of this life can never choke out the Word growing in him?

And please point out when and where you perceive you are being insulted. My impression is that when we refuse to engage with your sources (read them) the discussion is over.

 

[JLB]

Does any of this sound like he was of the Father and a true disciple of Jesus? It doesn't sound like it to me. Someone who is a true follower of Jesus would not sell Him out.

Judas ”became” a traitor. He was a disciple, an apostle of Christ Jesus and then later on he “became” a traitor.

Lucifer was the anointed cherub who was beautiful and wise as an archangel… then later on he became Satan, the adversary and a traitor.

Saul of Tarsus was an insolent man who persecuted the church… then became an apostle who raised up many churches and wrote 2/3 of the New Testment.


In each case these were the one thing then became the other.


Unfortunately His sheep do in fact become lost… some repent while others do not.


For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. John 17:8-9





JLB

 

[JLB]

Someone who is a true follower of Jesus would not sell Him out.

If fact that is exactly what happened, His disciple and friend, sold Him out.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9



And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ Zechariah 13:6

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If fact that is exactly what happened, His disciple and friend, sold Him out.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9



And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ Zechariah 13:6

Since Jesus trusted Judas, and Jesus did not fool himself, there must be time in the relationship when there was no betrayal.

 

[PeterJens]

John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

1. Judas was a thief
2. Satan entered into him after receiving the sop and he immediately went out from among them
3.Went straight to the chief priest to bargain with them to betray Jesus
4. Never repented, but only felt remorse after seeing that Jesus was to be crucified and went and hung himself.

Does any of this sound like he was of the Father and a true disciple of Jesus? It doesn't sound like it to me. Someone who is a true follower of Jesus would not sell Him out.

I like the position of not knowing. Jesus simply tells us we do not know who is in the Kingdom and who is not.

I think everything is scripture is there for a reason. We desire certainty, while Jesus calls us to trust and wait for the appropriate time. The side of trust is we abdicate the ability to decide because we do not know.

The power of omens and horoscopes is to provide certainty when there is only options and possible disaster. And this desire often leads to sin and destruction. I want to be important so I must be rich, I must flaunt my wealth, I must appear the most important person in the room. But this often just the desire for the stage not reality, and when the tide goes out the truth becomes clear, I am irrelevant.

So we live next to Judas, but we bless and praise the Lord, knowing they will betray us, but only at the Lords timing.
I used to be worried by the theology of my fellow believers, but now I see its just either the Lord feeding their hearts or they are important, so I just need to leave alone.

Each day do I trust or do I want certainty? Do I lean on my own understanding or wish to share the grace and peace of Christ?

God bless you

 

[for_his_glory]

I only replied here to the question of the OP with my thoughts and views and the little bit that scripture gives about Judas. It's only my opinion that I say Judas was not saved as none of us could possibly know for sure. I will leave all of you with this. Was Judas saved

I was shocked, confused, bewildered


As I entered Heaven's door,


Not by the beauty of it all,


Nor the lights or its décor.


But it was the folks in Heaven


Who made me sputter and gasp


The thieves, the liars, the sinners,


The alcoholics and the trash.


There stood the kid from seventh grade


Who swiped my lunch money twice.


Next to him was my old neighbor


Who never said anything nice.


Herb, who I always thought


Was rotting away in hell,


Was sitting pretty on cloud nine,


Looking incredibly well.


I nudged Jesus, 'What's the deal?


I would love to hear your take.


How'd all these sinners get up here?


God must've made a mistake.


'And why is everyone so quiet,


So somber - give me a clue.'


'Hush, child,' He said, 'they're all in shock.


No one thought they'd be seeing you.'


JUDGE NOT!!!


Remember...Just going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car ..


Every saint has a PAST....

Every sinner has a FUTURE!!!​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I like the position of not knowing. Jesus simply tells us we do not know who is in the Kingdom and who is not.

I think everything is scripture is there for a reason. We desire certainty, while Jesus calls us to trust and wait for the appropriate time. The side of trust is we abdicate the ability to decide because we do not know.

The power of omens and horoscopes is to provide certainty when there is only options and possible disaster. And this desire often leads to sin and destruction. I want to be important so I must be rich, I must flaunt my wealth, I must appear the most important person in the room. But this often just the desire for the stage not reality, and when the tide goes out the truth becomes clear, I am irrelevant.

So we live next to Judas, but we bless and praise the Lord, knowing they will betray us, but only at the Lords timing.
I used to be worried by the theology of my fellow believers, but now I see its just either the Lord feeding their hearts or they are important, so I just need to leave alone.

Each day do I trust or do I want certainty? Do I lean on my own understanding or wish to share the grace and peace of Christ?

God bless you

Paul writes encouraging us to “examine ourselves to see if we are still in the faith.” 2 Cor 13:5. That is seeking certainty on a matter for which a wise person seeks certainty. There are matters about we are required to make sure and matters we need to trust. Wisdom is knowing which is which.

As to the OP, betrayal by definition is not something anyone, including Jesus, rejoiced at. Jesus lived with and loved Judas and hoped he would repent of his stealing. Anything else is less than love and less than a betrayal for Jesus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I only replied here to the question of the OP with my thoughts and views and the little bit that scripture gives about Judas. It's only my opinion that I say Judas was not saved as none of us could possibly know for sure. I will leave all of you with this. Was Judas saved

Every saint has a PAST....

Every sinner has a FUTURE!!!​

Are you changing your position? You insisted Judas was always a thief when you pronounced that “Judas was a thief” and therefore could not have been saved ever at any point in time.

I understand why as your theology does not allow for change over time. It does mean that honest adherents have to choose ignorance rather than understanding which does show your honesty.

An alternative which fits scripture and real life is that Judas was as saved as any of them when he walked with Jesus. He preached the gospel, healed the sick, cast out demons, the whole package. That means no one but Jesus knew what what happening inside at a point in time. He looked like all the rest.

But the difficulties of that life (no funds) ate away at the word of God (seed) in him and his faith (the plant) withered and died as he repeatedly chose to ease his discomfort by stealing. To use biblical language he fell away from the faith and betrayed the One. This fits the scripture and real life as we know it to be.

 

[JLB]

Since Jesus trusted Judas, and Jesus did not fool himself, there must be time in the relationship when there was no betrayal.

Thats what it appears to me to be.

 

[PeterJens]

Since Jesus trusted Judas, and Jesus did not fool himself, there must be time in the relationship when there was no betrayal.

We can over analyse. We are called to be detached in a loving way and not respond to evil with evil.
I have had a debate with myself. The Lord knows the future and the future is set by interactions which end well or badly. If you judged the world over what is to come, before one got there in reality that would be unjust. If love is freely given and in the end freely rejected, for the rejection to be a problem alone, the gift must be given without knowledge of the future rejection.

A theological issue is everyone is called but few are chosen. Jesus came to save the world, but the lost are lost, though he came to save them. If Jesus had behaved to Judas differently to the other 11, then you could say that was the reason he fell, because he knew his destiny.

In language terms to describe this, one creates apparent contradictions and paradoxes.
The other side of this is we do not know who at the last opportunity will turn, as Paul did after persecuting and destroying many believers, and was the argument the prophet gave to not go and see Paul when God called.

I see life as the tapestry in the possible and free will expressed and God weaves His thread through it all to His glory.
I have spoken to many who see how impossible it seems to change peoples hearts, but at the right time and situation Jesus finds a way.

Judas is a key example of mans dilemma with sin and rejecting Christ. Nothing the disciples could say or do would have changed the outcome, Judas knew everything. Yet the Lord intended salvation for all to be an open door through this betrayal, which is ironic. I sometimes wonder if I could share more, and would this make a difference, but I have concluded it is at the right time and the right place, and it changes everything.

I am also quick to disregard the Lords work in others, and how he has changed them, with a light shinning in an earthly pot. If I focus on what I can encourage and help with, all the Judases in the world will make no difference to Gods will or Gods work.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We can over analyse. We are called to be detached in a loving way and not respond to evil with evil.

Not sure about detached, but forgiving evil and returning good for evil is right.

I have had a debate with myself. The Lord knows the future and the future is set by interactions which end well or badly. If you judged the world over what is to come, before one got there in reality that would be unjust. If love is freely given and in the end freely rejected, for the rejection to be a problem alone, the gift must be given without knowledge of the future rejection.

Ok

A theological issue is everyone is called but few are chosen. Jesus came to save the world, but the lost are lost, though he came to save them. If Jesus had behaved to Judas differently to the other 11, then you could say that was the reason he fell, because he knew his destiny.

But the others would have noticed this. The report is that they saw no difference. Jesus didn’t treat Judas differently.

In language terms to describe this, one creates apparent contradictions and paradoxes.

I guess I don’t see any contradictions or paradoxes.

The other side of this is we do not know who at the last opportunity will turn, as Paul did after persecuting and destroying many believers, and was the argument the prophet gave to not go and see Paul when God called.

I see life as the tapestry in the possible and free will expressed and God weaves His thread through it all to His glory.
I have spoken to many who see how impossible it seems to change peoples hearts, but at the right time and situation Jesus finds a way.

Jesus can change hearts for those who seek this. We have a role to play.

Judas is a key example of mans dilemma with sin and rejecting Christ. Nothing the disciples could say or do would have changed the outcome, Judas knew everything. Yet the Lord intended salvation for all to be an open door through this betrayal, which is ironic. I sometimes wonder if I could share more, and would this make a difference, but I have concluded it is at the right time and the right place, and it changes everything.

It should be said that Judas was not necessary for salvation. We are not saved through Judas’ betrayal. He played no role at all except that Jesus felt the betrayal. The Jewish leaders were gunning for him. It would have happened. They were not going to give up.

I am also quick to disregard the Lords work in others, and how he has changed them, with a light shinning in an earthly pot. If I focus on what I can encourage and help with, all the Judases in the world will make no difference to Gods will or Gods work.

Encouraging is a great ministry.

 

[PeterJens]

Not sure about detached, but forgiving evil and returning good for evil is right.

Ok

But the others would have noticed this. The report is that they saw no difference. Jesus didn’t treat Judas differently.

I guess I don’t see any contradictions or paradoxes.

Jesus can change hearts for those who seek this. We have a role to play.

It should be said that Judas was not necessary for salvation. We are not saved through Judas’ betrayal. He played no role at all except that Jesus felt the betrayal. The Jewish leaders were gunning for him. It would have happened. They were not going to give up.



Encouraging is a great ministry.

"Judas was not necessary for salvation"

I am not criticising this phrase but it stands out as a phrase linked to the analysis what is necessary for salvation.
It strikes me as odd that we end up talking like this. How many married couples would say this ....... is necessary for marriage. One can dissect any relationship, but miss how it started and grew.

I suppose what I mean is when you love Jesus and you desire to listen and follow, it is something from the heart. The lists and analysis help, but without the core love and motivation it is meaningless.

Judas felt remorse about sending an innocent man to his death, money for blood. Even the pharisees saw this as an evil deed by refusing the money when returned. Judas did not express he had betrayed the Son of God, or wanted to repent and restore what had previously been his desire to follow.

Peter on the other hand was struck to the heart that his enthusiasm to stand by the coming King, as he conquered the pharisees, and took over Jerusalem in victory, he was willing to die for this cause. But Jesus dying as a lamb led to the slaughter had no great defence or fight about it. In worldly terms it was defeat and the end of the ministry. Judas had given up on this false King, and realised his words were not revolution but abdication.

Peter saw his love of Jesus was not missplaced, just the vision of how Jesus would become King, as he had seen Jesus come in power with Elijah( the prophets) and Moses (the law), and the Father speaking to them. And this shallow view was changed to resurrection victory, the Kingdom beginning which was so much more ..... yet also much more complex. How is the temple replaced? How are gentiles dealt with?

You could say Peter seeing Jesus is power with Elijah and Moses and hearing the Father speak put the whole death and trial in a very different perspective. What a sea of conflicting emotion that night he felt, and over the next few weeks until they saw Jesus on the beach.
And Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?"

The Kingdom is founded on love, and our love for our Lord, Amen.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Paradoxes

Hate your family, respect your father and mother?
Put the needs of a situation of others and oneself as being important, but deny yourself.

Turn the other cheek, love your enemy

15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.
17 All men will hate you because of me.
Luke 21:15-17

7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
James 4:7-9

Some turn people into devils so then you can resist them. Interesting way of miss reading scripture.

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

So much of christian life is about an emotional walk that is right and joyful but not laughing at others or mocking.

14 "'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD."
Lev 19:14

I only recently saw this line as a command to not mock or take advantage of the disabled, which is very common in primary schools and too easy to do....

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"Judas was not necessary for salvation"

I am not criticising this phrase but it stands out as a phrase linked to the analysis what is necessary for salvation.
It strikes me as odd that we end up talking like this. How many married couples would say this ....... is necessary for marriage. One can dissect any relationship, but miss how it started and grew.

I suppose what I mean is when you love Jesus and you desire to listen and follow, it is something from the heart. The lists and analysis help, but without the core love and motivation it is meaningless.

Judas felt remorse about sending an innocent man to his death, money for blood. Even the pharisees saw this as an evil deed by refusing the money when returned. Judas did not express he had betrayed the Son of God, or wanted to repent and restore what had previously been his desire to follow.

Peter on the other hand was struck to the heart that his enthusiasm to stand by the coming King, as he conquered the pharisees, and took over Jerusalem in victory, he was willing to die for this cause. But Jesus dying as a lamb led to the slaughter had no great defence or fight about it. In worldly terms it was defeat and the end of the ministry. Judas had given up on this false King, and realised his words were not revolution but abdication.

Peter saw his love of Jesus was not missplaced, just the vision of how Jesus would become King, as he had seen Jesus come in power with Elijah( the prophets) and Moses (the law), and the Father speaking to them. And this shallow view was changed to resurrection victory, the Kingdom beginning which was so much more ..... yet also much more complex. How is the temple replaced? How are gentiles dealt with?

You could say Peter seeing Jesus is power with Elijah and Moses and hearing the Father speak put the whole death and trial in a very different perspective. What a sea of conflicting emotion that night he felt, and over the next few weeks until they saw Jesus on the beach.
And Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?"

The Kingdom is founded on love, and our love for our Lord, Amen.

God bless you

God bless you as well!