Judas - was he saved?

[PeterJens]

Where is it written that Judas, and no other was predestined to betray Jesus? I don’t see that. Can you please provide further evidence of this position please?

Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him
Matt 10:4
"I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."
Matt 26:21
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
Matt 26:25
Here comes my betrayer!"
Matt 16:46
"I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."
Mark 14:18
"Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
Luke 22:48
He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.
John 6:71
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:12
I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent
Matt 27:4

Jesus confirms among his disciples and the 12 apostles only one will betray Him. When it becomes clear it is Judas, Jesus points out it is Judas by saying "it is you", "are you betraying...." "None has been lost except the one doomed..."

This implies only Judas was involved without the knowledge of any of the others. The gospel writers are divided as to was Judas a believer or not, by saying

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
John 6:64

Jesus sent out the 12 apostles and they came back reporting miracles etc. Because this is a general response they could have missed Judas stayed silent. Judas probably kept quiet a lot, so maybe a lot was assumed about him because everyone else was very vocal. When a group says "Not I", if one of them is quiet, no one would here.

27 When Judas leaves at the passover they think its because of the money
28 "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor.
John 13:27-29

Jesus is talking about his betrayal in the sense of handing Jesus over to the authorities to be tried.
Peter denies Jesus 3 times, the disciples run away is a different type of betrayal, so one needs to be specific about what Jesus calls betrayal and what he called the sheep fleeing because the shepherd is struck.


God bless you

 

[for_his_glory]

Judas performed all the same miracles all the others did. There’s no reason to think he was giving lip service but denying the power. He healed the sick same as the others.

How do you know for sure that Judas performed any miracles in the name of Jesus? Jesus gave the twelve all power and authority to heal and cast out demons, but truly Judas went out from among them instead of being with them.

If Judas was truly Christ own then there is no way Satan could enter into him, John 13:26-27. Judas was the disciples treasure, but always being a thief even stole out of the treasury, John 12:6. Judas was lost from Jesus even before he betrayed Him with a kiss as Jesus knew he was doomed to destruction, or in other words eternally damned, John 17:12. In Acts 1:16-20 as we also read in Matthew 27:3-10 Peter suggest that Psalms 109:8 was about Judas. This was all God's plan for redemption. Judas acknowledged his sin, but only remorseful after he saw what Jesus went through as he did not know what the outcome of his betrayal would be for Jesus as he only thought he would be imprisoned.

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no doubt that we all must endure to the end, in order to be saved. On this I believe we agree.


Of course, I don’t believe Judas was saved when he died.


However, that’s not the point I made. The point I made is about what the scriptures teach us about Judas. Based on the scriptures, I believe he was predestined to live on and reign with Christ and the other 11 in the age to come. I believe he was saved for a while, he was at one time “right with God”, or “just”, then became “lost” as teaching from the parable of the sower, illustrates he “fell away” which means he turned away or deserted Christ.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Here in verse 12, we see the reason that prevented these folks in ths verse from being saved, was the did not “believe”. Thus Jesus sets the condition for salvation, which is to “believe”.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Now in the next verse we see…

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


I believe this teaching illustrates the life of Judas Iscariot, in that he fell away from Christ; he deserted Christ.



JLB

One who deserts Christ IMO was never His own to begin with. Judas was used in the plan of God's redemption. Just like in the OT Pharaoh and many others who opposed God as they were destroyed so others would know "I AM" in all His sovereignty.

 

[PeterJens]

How do you know for sure that Judas performed any miracles in the name of Jesus? Jesus gave the twelve all power and authority to heal and cast out demons, but truly Judas went out from among them instead of being with them.

If Judas was truly Christ own then there is no way Satan could enter into him, John 13:26-27. Judas was the disciples treasure, but always being a thief even stole out of the treasury, John 12:6. Judas was lost from Jesus even before he betrayed Him with a kiss as Jesus knew he was doomed to destruction, or in other words eternally damned, John 17:12. In Acts 1:16-20 as we also read in Matthew 27:3-10 Peter suggest that Psalms 109:8 was about Judas. This was all God's plan for redemption. Judas acknowledged his sin, but only remorseful after he saw what Jesus went through as he did not know what the outcome of his betrayal would be for Jesus as he only thought he would be imprisoned.

I think Judas was an architype of people we will meet in all fellowships.
No one knows if they truly believe or not, and it does not matter. Jesus emphasised that the good plants will grow despite the weeds and the weeds should not be weeded out because doing this would damage the good plants.

Jesus left Judas alone. So we will all be betrayed, but we are in the Lords hands and it is His will that will work through. Judas was not a defeat, but used to bring glory to God. Even so Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born.

It struck me the other day, the analogy with faith being like a plant is it grows if fed and watered. There is an inevitability which is the work of the Holy Spirit. You cannot stop light with darkness, because darkness is just the lack of light. I have heard false teachers claim we have to fear and fight the enemy, but rather we must honour and follow the Lord and everything else will be added to us.

In my church one elder and one assistant pastor had affairs. The pastor wanted us to not talk about it, like it was something to hide, while in reality it was something to bring into the open and discuss why and how people were easily so unfaithful and not putting love and honour before desire and compromise. So these guys compromised the whole fellowship. I know there were other affairs etc going on, but unless you talk about why we honour family and marriage, are we actually being true to our Lord? I would say we are suggesting darkness has greater power than the light.

Pornography is a typical example. Sexual desire is in all of us, but feeding it by watching others committing adultery and fornication is giving authority to sin and dishonour in the community. When you see the destructive power of a few minutes of desire to a life time of love and faithfulness, exalting sinful behaviour becomes anathema.

We need more openness and honesty, more facing the love we have one to another and how this truly works out in the Lord, or our victory is just delusion and our faith has no power or reality. Paul lived in an age of open orgies, multiple wives, no boundaries etc. yet they remained strong and faithful, and so can we.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you know for sure that Judas performed any miracles in the name of Jesus? Jesus gave the twelve all power and authority to heal and cast out demons, but truly Judas went out from among them instead of being with them.

Where is the verse that excludes Judas from being sent out and going? I cannot recall Judas went somewhere else.

If Judas was truly Christ own then there is no way Satan could enter into him, John 13:26-27.

How come Jesus told Peter that Satan was speaking through that disciple? Satan gains access when we sin, same as Judas.

Judas was the disciples treasure, but always being a thief even stole out of the treasury, John 12:6. Judas was lost from Jesus even before he betrayed Him with a kiss as Jesus knew he was doomed to destruction, or in other words eternally damned,

Only after he started choosing badly.

John 17:12. In Acts 1:16-20 as we also read in Matthew 27:3-10 Peter suggest that Psalms 109:8 was about Judas.

After a time but not before.

This was all God's plan for redemption. Judas acknowledged his sin, but only remorseful after he saw what Jesus went through as he did not know what the outcome of his betrayal would be for Jesus as he only thought he would be imprisoned.

This I agree with although Judas wasn’t predestined for that role.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him
Matt 10:4
"I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."
Matt 26:21
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
Matt 26:25
Here comes my betrayer!"
Matt 16:46
"I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."
Mark 14:18
"Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
Luke 22:48
He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.
John 6:71
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:12
I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent
Matt 27:4

Jesus confirms among his disciples and the 12 apostles only one will betray Him. When it becomes clear it is Judas, Jesus points out it is Judas by saying "it is you", "are you betraying...." "None has been lost except the one doomed..."

This implies only Judas was involved without the knowledge of any of the others. The gospel writers are divided as to was Judas a believer or not, by saying

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
John 6:64

Jesus sent out the 12 apostles and they came back reporting miracles etc. Because this is a general response they could have missed Judas stayed silent. Judas probably kept quiet a lot, so maybe a lot was assumed about him because everyone else was very vocal. When a group says "Not I", if one of them is quiet, no one would here.

27 When Judas leaves at the passover they think its because of the money
28 "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor.
John 13:27-29

Jesus is talking about his betrayal in the sense of handing Jesus over to the authorities to be tried.
Peter denies Jesus 3 times, the disciples run away is a different type of betrayal, so one needs to be specific about what Jesus calls betrayal and what he called the sheep fleeing because the shepherd is struck.


God bless you

There is no evidence that Judas remained silent and the evidence is that he was as excited and participated as much as anyone else. Otherwise the others would have seen it too. Groups notice the odd man out.

You don’t have to quote all the verses about Judas, I know them well and they don’t address the discussion points.

 

[Randy]

First of all I don't think the influence Jesus had on Judas in such a short time turned Judas into a devil. The fault was already in Judas's heart. Judas was noted as helping himself into the money purse, (a thief), before his betrayal of Jesus and that speaks to his character. The love of money. The handsome price he priced the Lord. 30 pieces of silver.



You ask for a judgment. I don't think it was in Judas's favor.



The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

 

[JLB]

One who deserts Christ IMO was never His own to begin with.

That’s the classic position of Calvinism and is a contradiction in and of itself.

How can someone desert the army they were never in?

How can the wife desert the husband she was never married to?

How can a person desert the kingdom they were never in?



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These by the wayside were never saved, because they never believed.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These in the second group did in fact believe, thus fulfilling the condition Jesus gave for salvation.





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

There is no evidence that Judas remained silent and the evidence is that he was as excited and participated as much as anyone else. Otherwise the others would have seen it too. Groups notice the odd man out.

You don’t have to quote all the verses about Judas, I know them well and they don’t address the discussion points.

I agree with your point about a lack of comment on Judas's response.
I would read from the differences in the gospels, each apostle had their own experience and view.
It is clear John introduces Mary, Martha and Lazarus as important people in the ministry of Jesus, which the others did not rate highly. Also the gospels show the apostles often missed Jesus's points, and so the enthusiasm of others or lack there of could easily be missed. Peter was no reluctant to ask Jesus who the betrayer was, he got John to ask for him.

The absence of evidence is not evidence, rather evidence that whatever happened it was not noticed.
I see exactly the same in churches. One person expresses an opinion and others just take it as fact without checking, until something happens that contradicts it.

 

[for_his_glory]

That’s the classic position of Calvinism and is a contradiction in and of itself.

How can someone desert the army they were never in?

How can the wife desert the husband she was never married to?

How can a person desert the kingdom they were never in?



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These by the wayside were never saved, because they never believed.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These in the second group did in fact believe, thus fulfilling the condition Jesus gave for salvation.





JLB

Judas was chosen by Jesus to be one of His disciples, but for a different purpose. He walked with Christ and heard His teachings and witnessed the miracles happening all around him, but yet a thief at heart. IMO that would make him a part of the twelve disciples, but yet only having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof, 2 Timothy 3:5-7. This is why Satan was allowed to enter into him in order to fulfill prophecy as he truly was not Christ own.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think Judas was an architype of people we will meet in all fellowships.
No one knows if they truly believe or not, and it does not matter. Jesus emphasised that the good plants will grow despite the weeds and the weeds should not be weeded out because doing this would damage the good plants.

Jesus left Judas alone. So we will all be betrayed, but we are in the Lords hands and it is His will that will work through. Judas was not a defeat, but used to bring glory to God. Even so Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born.

It struck me the other day, the analogy with faith being like a plant is it grows if fed and watered. There is an inevitability which is the work of the Holy Spirit. You cannot stop light with darkness, because darkness is just the lack of light. I have heard false teachers claim we have to fear and fight the enemy, but rather we must honour and follow the Lord and everything else will be added to us.

In my church one elder and one assistant pastor had affairs. The pastor wanted us to not talk about it, like it was something to hide, while in reality it was something to bring into the open and discuss why and how people were easily so unfaithful and not putting love and honour before desire and compromise. So these guys compromised the whole fellowship. I know there were other affairs etc going on, but unless you talk about why we honour family and marriage, are we actually being true to our Lord? I would say we are suggesting darkness has greater power than the light.

Pornography is a typical example. Sexual desire is in all of us, but feeding it by watching others committing adultery and fornication is giving authority to sin and dishonour in the community. When you see the destructive power of a few minutes of desire to a life time of love and faithfulness, exalting sinful behaviour becomes anathema.

We need more openness and honesty, more facing the love we have one to another and how this truly works out in the Lord, or our victory is just delusion and our faith has no power or reality. Paul lived in an age of open orgies, multiple wives, no boundaries etc. yet they remained strong and faithful, and so can we.

God bless you

To me it just boils down to taking in all the facts we can find from scripture.

1. Judas was picked to be a disciple.
2. Judas was a thief and stole out of the treasury.
3. Judas went on his own to the priest of the Temple after Satan entered him and offered to betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.
4. Judas led the guards to Jesus and pointed Him out with a kiss.
5. Judas thinking that Jesus would only be imprisoned felt remorse as he witnessed what Jesus went through and then hung on a cross to die.
6. Judas begged to give the money back but was refused.
7. Judas with so much remorse for what he did hung himself.
8. Judas could have asked God for forgiveness as he heard Christ teachings on forgiveness.
9. Judas damned his own self by his actions.
10. No, Judas was not saved as his name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

These are my conclusions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Where is the verse that excludes Judas from being sent out and going? I cannot recall Judas went somewhere else.

Luke 22:1-6; John 13:30 Judas did not go to the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus and the other eleven disciples as after Jesus dipped the sop and gave it to Judas Satan entered into him and he went immediately out from them.

How come Jesus told Peter that Satan was speaking through that disciple? Satan gains access when we sin, same as Judas.

Where in John 13:21-30 and the other scriptures about the betrayal does it say Jesus told Peter that Satan was speaking through Judas? Satan never entered him until he received the sop.

Only after he started choosing badly.

Our choices either bring us eternal life with Christ, or damnation. Judas never was Christ own.

After a time but not before.

A heart of greed can be used by God within fulfilling prophecy.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Judas wasn’t predestined for that role.

Because of his heart of greed God purposed Judas to fulfill prophecy of the death of Christ.

 

[JLB]

Judas was chosen by Jesus to be one of His disciples, but for a different purpose.

As I mentioned before, the scriptures teach us that Judas was predestined, or chosen, in that it was predetermined that Judas and the other eleven apostles would rule with Christ from their twelve thrones in the age to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Just because God foresaw the future, what Judas would choose to do, doesnt mean Judas didnt have a freewill to choose.


Judas always had a choice.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

That’s the classic position of Calvinism and is a contradiction in and of itself.

How can someone desert the army they were never in?

How can the wife desert the husband she was never married to?

How can a person desert the kingdom they were never in?



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These by the wayside were never saved, because they never believed.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These in the second group did in fact believe, thus fulfilling the condition Jesus gave for salvation.





JLB

This reminds me of seeing my daughter first meet her future husband. They were interested in each other but wanted to explore and get to know each other. Both had quite specific likes and dislikes which needed to be worked through and things adjusted and taken on board.

Now you could argue as many do, if the relationship breaks up, it was never meant to be, or it never was real. But there is not a definitive measure, it is a mixture of things which work together either to make the relationship grow strong or to stop it. Jesus describes His word dwelling in us like this, putting into action His commands, learning how to express love and worship of Him. One can look at various events along the road, which are markers of a change of direction, but over time they add up to entering the Kingdom.

Jesus said the apostles had been cleansed by His word. Washing away dirt is not instantaneous but happens over a short period.

We love to use language that is black and white, often where there is growth and change. Like learning a new subject, it takes time, you begin to understand new facts and details and at the end with a fuller picture you have arrived.

Peter used these words -
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-11

Peter is emphasising our calling and election is related to our walking in Jesus and our relationship with others.
If things were not relationship and love based but purely contractual which can never be broken these words would make no sense. The whole thrust of their meaning is working the Lords ways through our lives daily, weekly, yearly.
God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Luke 22:1-6; John 13:30 Judas did not go to the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus and the other eleven disciples as after Jesus dipped the sop and gave it to Judas Satan entered into him and he went immediately out from them.

I asked for the verse that says when the disciples were sent out to minister, Judas didn’t go. I mean, he wasn’t there at the day of Pentecost either but that doesn’t say he therefore was never sent out with the rest when Jesus sent them out to preach and heal the sick.

Where in John 13:21-30 and the other scriptures about the betrayal does it say Jesus told Peter that Satan was speaking through Judas? Satan never entered him until he received the sop.

When Satan tempts a man to do evil, there is a kind of power that Satan starts to have over the man. Do a great sin once against your conscience and it’s a lot easier the second time. This is still true.

Our choices either bring us eternal life with Christ, or damnation. Judas never was Christ own.

Being Christ’s doesn’t mean one can make a different eternal choice later.

A heart of greed can be used by God within fulfilling prophecy.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Ok

Because of his heart of greed God purposed Judas to fulfill prophecy of the death of Christ.

No, God didn’t need to do anything when it comes to a man choosing evil. God’s activity consists of helping men choose good when it comes to that area.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Correction:

Being Christ’s doesn’t mean one canNOT later make a different eternal choice.

 

[PeterJens]

Correction:

Being Christ’s doesn’t mean one canNOT later make a different eternal choice.

Thinking about the sentence made me think about an odd perspective of life.
I sit here typing in front of a computer screen, happy, blessed and at peace.
Now the wider context could be anything from delusion to living in the heart of God.

We can get a sense that our current feeling of the place we are at is related to the wider context. It is easy to say because we have this sense in the moment of peace, it has real foundations and roots.

Jesus in the sermon on the mount points out a different perspective. Only after the storm do you see how well the building was founded and built. The sand castle looks so good, better and bigger than the house built on the rock, but it is a very different story after the storms have been and gone.

The prophets of old said time and again in times of prosperity when the Lord is not honoured and sin prevails, judgement will come, terrible judgement that we would describe a war crimes, cruel and unbelievable suffering. The Lord points out you do not see the consequences of ones actions in a time of wealth and parties, only when hard times roll. Today we live in a place of great wealth and resource on the edge of total disaster. We need to dwell in the shadow of His wings and His ways, because it is there we have real life foundations that is life to our souls.

God bless you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thinking about the sentence made me think about an odd perspective of life.
I sit here typing in front of a computer screen, happy, blessed and at peace.
Now the wider context could be anything from delusion to living in the heart of God.

We can get a sense that our current feeling of the place we are at is related to the wider context. It is easy to say because we have this sense in the moment of peace, it has real foundations and roots.

Jesus in the sermon on the mount points out a different perspective. Only after the storm do you see how well the building was founded and built. The sand castle looks so good, better and bigger than the house built on the rock, but it is a very different story after the storms have been and gone.

The prophets of old said time and again in times of prosperity when the Lord is not honoured and sin prevails, judgement will come, terrible judgement that we would describe a war crimes, cruel and unbelievable suffering. The Lord points out you do not see the consequences of ones actions in a time of wealth and parties, only when hard times roll. Today we live in a place of great wealth and resource on the edge of total disaster. We need to dwell in the shadow of His wings and His ways, because it is there we have real life foundations that is life to our souls.

God bless you

PeterJens, that was very nice to read! Blessed me. May He return the blessing to you.

Dottie

 

[for_his_glory]

As I mentioned before, the scriptures teach us that Judas was predestined, or chosen, in that it was predetermined that Judas and the other eleven apostles would rule with Christ from their twelve thrones in the age to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Just because God foresaw the future, what Judas would choose to do, doesnt mean Judas didnt have a freewill to choose.


Judas always had a choice.



JLB

I never said that Judas did not have freewill, but that even though he followed the other disciples he still had a heart of a thief and the love of money was more important to him.

The question presented in the OP was Judas saved or not and I said no he wasn't and gave my views and scripture. I have nothing more to give to this thread as some are making me feel browbeaten and with Steve still being in the hospital for at least another three months I do not have time to be demeaned by others so I withdrawal from this thread.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never said that Judas did not have freewill, but that even though he followed the other disciples he still had a heart of a thief and the love of money was more important to him.

The question presented in the OP was Judas saved or not and I said no he wasn't and gave my views and scripture. I have nothing more to give to this thread as some are making me feel browbeaten and with Steve still being in the hospital for at least another three months I do not have time to be demeaned by others so I withdrawal from this thread.

Your scriptures do NOT support your position. Judas wasn’t born a thief. Judas was like all the others until the time point came where the suffering (no funds) or the pleasures of life (funds) seduced him to steal. At that point when he started to steal he became a thief but not before. Why can’t you take disagreement?