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Bible Study Judas

  • Thread starter sydbarrettangel
  • Start date
Have we not all amde mistakes?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

Did jesus forgive him?

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses[sins] unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)

Did he forgive us?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)
 
Nice reply:)

Thanks! I find it good to reply with scripture not just my opinion or your opinion. Of course no translation is perfect.
 
The Bible contains hyperbole. The truth is, Christ is said to love the church, never the world. That is a love of special relationship. God is never said to love the church, but the world. This is divine goodness, what is in the nature of God (not His purpose), and His glory is the real end of all.

Joh 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
 
This is God's final purpose:

Then cometh the end... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24;28)
 
Guys,

The Bible plainly states that God will NEVER give those that believe in Him more than they can handle. From all indications of the Word, one has to offer repentance and BELIEVE that they are saved to receive this gift. If Judas had truly offered repentance and had known that he was saved, explain to me why he committed suicide. And furthermore, explain how one could commit suicide and be forgiven.

It's awful, awful easy to quote scripture that states that What is impossible for man is not for God, but if you start walking down that path then you could use this to justify ANYTHING. Good luck.

Judas turned his back on Christ. I would suggest that all the scripture written concerning 'following Christ' to salvation offers that what Judas did wasn't 'just a mistake', but a complete betrayal of Christ Himself.

Often times we are sorry for what we have done. Sometimes our sorrow is sincere repentance and others we are simply sorry for the consequences of our actions with no thought about 'right' or 'wrong' but from what we have to face 'after the fact'.

Regardless of what you or I 'think', I can tell you this: I'm sure glad that I wasn't Judas.

You guys keep offering excuses for this guy like he was 'just another saint' or something along this order. God made everything guys, but everything that He made is NOT saved or preserved. God didn't 'make' Judas do what he did. Judas made this choice just as Caiaphas did. When he stated that one must die for the people, he wasn't concerned with 'right' or 'wrong', his intention wasn't to follow prophecy, it was to eliminate the threat that Christ offered to 'the old ways'. Old ways that kept him in power and prestige.

Judas was NO different. It's obvious by the choice that he made. His decision was based on greed and NOTHING more. He did NOT betray Christ because he knew Christ must die. He betrayed Christ for 'thirty' pieces of silver. MONEY. It wasn't until after he had knowledge of what they were doing to Christ that he even felt any remorse for what he had done. He betrayed Christ 'with a kiss'. Wow, could you be any more evil?

Believe as you will. I don't understand how you see what you see. You do know that God destroyed ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve right? All except for ONE man and his family. You do know that the earth will be destroyed again in the future and this time completely right? You do know that there are those that aren't saved and that these people will be permanently separated from God right? They will not only suffer the 'first death' but 'a second death' also, right?

So, with all this understanding, you still believe in your hearts that Judas was spared this second death? God hardened Pharaohs heart. Do you believe that Pharaohs in heaven, or will be one day. He used Pharaoh just like he used Judas. He allowed both of them to exhibit their will against Him. This doesn't mean that God 'made' these people do his bidding for 'their will' but His will. And just because God uses you to do His bidding doesn't mean that your actions 'agree' with God's plan for salvation in that once your actions are complete that you receive a 'get out of hell free' card.

Was Hitler 'used' by God? I mean EVERY TIME that the Jews turned their backs on God in the Bible, they were punished by being persecuted or enslaved. Do you not realize that this is exactly what possessed Hitler to, once again, bring His children BACK to Him. A wake-up call of sorts to let them know that they are 'nothing' without their Father.

So, what do you think about Hitler. Is he 'up there' with Judas?
 
A small comment to the point above me, we all make mistakes. Now, you must remember the Holy Spirit didn't live inside them at the time, so they had to believe what Jesus said. Jesus died for ALL our sins.

Ok, you said something I would like to point out. It amde it seem if you commit suicide you go to hell. Well, is God going to condem you to hell for being sick in the head as much as being sick in the stomache?

My response: no. If a Christian man commited suicide, he had problems, yet he believed in Jesus. Thats all that mattered. God won't condem him to hell because he had a problem. We all have problems.

Anyway, to whoever replied to my nide reply post, I like to offer questions and people do research, that way I dont just tell em what to think. This way they research it themselves. :) I in teh end offer my opnion and stuff.
 
You guys keep offering excuses for this guy like he was 'just another saint' or something along this order.

I've never once stated that Judas Iscariot is a saint. He was an evil man and if there was a hell then I am sure he would be in it.


Believe as you will. I don't understand how you see what you see. You do know that God destroyed ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve right? All except for ONE man and his family. You do know that the earth will be destroyed again in the future and this time completely right?

Yes to both questions.

You do know that there are those that aren't saved and that these people will be permanently separated from God right? They will not only suffer the 'first death' but 'a second death' also, right?

Permanently separate from God. If you can scripturally prove that to me then I will believe it but you cannot for it is not in the Scriptures. And they will be hurt by the first death and the second death but who in the churches teaches that death will be abolished.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:26)

So, what do you think about Hitler. Is he 'up there' with Judas?

No, I don't think that anybody hath ascended to heaven save Jesus. They are dead, not in some mythical hell.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave[sheol], whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

This passage means that whatever you need to do, do it while you are alive because you cannot do anything while you are dead. And the word translated grave is sheol which is the same word that is rendered hell, so go and think about that long and hard.
 
Imagican said:
Judas turned his back on Christ. I would suggest that all the scripture written concerning 'following Christ' to salvation offers that what Judas did wasn't 'just a mistake', but a complete betrayal of Christ Himself.

I wouldn't say that. Didn't Judas do what he felt he had to do? And when he realized he'd screwed up he pretty much lost it? He obviously didn't realize the implications of what he was doing - or if it did it didn't sink in until things had already gone down.

Often times we are sorry for what we have done. Sometimes our sorrow is sincere repentance and others we are simply sorry for the consequences of our actions with no thought about 'right' or 'wrong' but from what we have to face 'after the fact'.

And which do you think applied to Mr. Iscariot?

Regardless of what you or I 'think', I can tell you this: I'm sure glad that I wasn't Judas.

But if you WERE Judas, you would not have done what he did, right? So that statement does not make sense.

You guys keep offering excuses for this guy like he was 'just another saint' or something along this order.

Hmm, let's see. He was an Apostle, right? Jesus chose Judas. Judas obviously had to have been an Apostle for awhile. It wasn't - bonk I'll chose this guy even though he's evil and I'll need him to betray me in a few days. Anyone know for sure when Judas was called? Obviously before Jesus and his group got to Jerusalem, because the ointment argument happened in Bethany, right? Also, prophecy never decried it had to be an Apostle that would betray Jesus, right? Just that Jesus would be betrayed.

Hence, Judas was chosen for a reason other than his betrayer potential. What is this reason? Who knows? But it had to have been a good one.

Judas made this choice just as Caiaphas did. When he stated that one must die for the people, he wasn't concerned with 'right' or 'wrong', his intention wasn't to follow prophecy, it was to eliminate the threat that Christ offered to 'the old ways'. Old ways that kept him in power and prestige.

When Caiaphas said that one man must die for the people, he was referring to Israel surving under Roman rule. He was not referring to his own interest in that quote - though I don't deny that Caiaphas had personal interest in not being unseated as well.

Judas was NO different. It's obvious by the choice that he made. His decision was based on greed and NOTHING more. He did NOT betray Christ because he knew Christ must die.

How do you know what Judas' decision was based on? Have you talked to him? Also, how do you know that Jesus did not lead Judas to betray him, to fulfill prophecy?

He betrayed Christ for 'thirty' pieces of silver.

Why's thirty in quotes?


Money which he returned, so obviously Judas was not THAT fond of money.

It wasn't until after he had knowledge of what they were doing to Christ that he even felt any remorse for what he had done.

MEANING he did NOT KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTION. Meaning that if he knew they were going to TORTURE his BEST FRIEND to death, he would NOT HAVE BETRAYED HIM. Hence, Judas was mislead, hence, he did not betray Jesus to his death.

He betrayed Christ 'with a kiss'. Wow, could you be any more evil?

You can always be more evil. Look at those Roman guys during the scourging scene in The Passion. Yep. You can ALWAYS be more evil.

As for the betraying with a kiss, isn't a kiss a sign of friendship? Hence, it could be Judas' way of signalling that he still supported Jesus, but he felt that this is what he had to do.

So, with all this understanding, you still believe in your hearts that Judas was spared this second death?

CHOSEN FOR A REASON. Judas was CHOSEN FOR A REASON.

Was Hitler 'used' by God? I mean EVERY TIME that the Jews turned their backs on God in the Bible, they were punished by being persecuted or enslaved. Do you not realize that this is exactly what possessed Hitler to, once again, bring His children BACK to Him. A wake-up call of sorts to let them know that they are 'nothing' without their Father.

Uhhhhh, what are you trying to get at here? There's quite a difference between being misled into betraying your friend and systematically murdering six million people.
 
And they cried out again, Crucify him. (Mark 15:13)

...Crucify him. (Mark 15:14)

... Crucify him, crucify him. (Luke 23:21)

Crucify him, crucify him (John 19:6)

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)


Their it is. The Ultimate and Infinite love of Christ.
 
Gendou,

Jesus did indeed ask the Father to forgive them, no doubt showing His 'complete love' for mankind. Now, what I ask you, did God forgive those that chose to murder His Son?

I seem to remember that Rome decided to put the 'do-haps' on Israel less than a century after Christs' death. Do you believe that Rome could have acted 'against' God's will?

Are those that deny Christ 'saved'?

Throughout the OT there were many, MANY Jews and others destroyed by God. Where will they end up?

Do you believe that 'everyone' is saved?
 
sydbarrettangel,

I think that you obviously were quite impressed by Mr. Mel's rendition of Christ's crucifiction and the story that accompanied it. Unfortunately for those that watched this 'movie' with the impression that it was 'true' it did nothing but offer one man's creative imagination as to what really happened. We are certainly NOT offered in scripture, much of what Mel offered.

I seem to remember Christ calling Judas a 'DEVIL'. I have NEVER found ANY scripture that indicates that 'devils' can be saved.

And Jesus telling Judas to do his 'deed', is no different that Christ telling Pontius that His death was not Pontius'' choice, but the Father in heaven. God hardened Pharaohs heart. By doing this in order to fulfill His will, would you indicate that Pharaoh was 'blessed' by God? So, because God allowed Judas to be the one to betray Christ, does this by any means indicate that what Judas did was 'right'?

And my friend, those that follow satan will receive the same reward as 'their father' upon the defeat of death by Christ. When death is NO MORE, then NO ONE will die. It's pretty simple really. But, until all that are lost are dead, death still exists in their future upon judgement. THIS will be the separation. Those that choose to follow satan will be destroyed when satan is destroyed,(ceases to exist). Up to that point, they remain in hell, (the grave).

When it is stated that Christ defeated 'death', this doesn't mean that there is death 'no more'. What it means is that the punishment for sin, (death), is 'no more' for those that CHOOSE to live through Christ. Until satan is destroyed there is certainly death to those that 'CHOOSE' death over life. And there is much scripture that offers a 'separation' from God for those that choose death.
 
Jesus did indeed ask the Father to forgive them, no doubt showing His 'complete love' for mankind. Now, what I ask you, did God forgive those that chose to murder His Son?

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)

I seem to remember that Rome decided to put the 'do-haps' on Israel less than a century after Christs' death. Do you believe that Rome could have acted 'against' God's will?

Who can fight God's will? No one! Which is why I deny "free will." But I really fail to see what this has to do with the subject.

Are those that deny Christ 'saved'?

Throughout the OT there were many, MANY Jews and others destroyed by God. Where will they end up?

Do you believe that 'everyone' is saved?

I took the liberty of grouping these questions. My answer is yes. All shall be saved and I can prove it. Here is the One Ultimate Scripture. It cannot be disproved by anyone. Alright here it is.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)


And Imagican, do you have any verses that say that Hell[sheol, hades] is "Eternal" seperation from God. Show me some Scriptures that prove that Hell is "Eternal." But alas you cannot. If you can I'll send you a bag of money.
 
Gendou Ikari said:
And Imagican, do you have any verses that say that Hell[sheol, hades] is "Eternal" seperation from God. Show me some Scriptures that prove that Hell is "Eternal." But alas you cannot. If you can I'll send you a bag of money.


You can keep your money.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
 
Thank you Pot luck.

Gendou,

I have no idea what Bible you are reading, (or not), but you have come offering some really 'different' views.

So, you offer scripture yourself that refutes your own statement. 'Them that believe' certainly doesn't in ANY way indicate 'all that exist'.

For you to believe and offer to teach that 'all are saved' is TOTALLY contradictory to the Bible itself. Pretty dangerous way to interpret scripture my friend.

Also I offer, that God has allowed MANY to 'go further' than what may seem righteous in our minds, in allowing individuals or peoples to condemn themselves. Almost as if His wishes were 'utter condemnation' for the sake of eliminating ANY possible argument. In other words, it seems at times that He has allowed evil to manifest itself 'complete' before making His judgement against such.

This is offered in explanation to that which you indicate you didn't understand in my previous post. My point? Just because God allows evil to exist doesn't mean that He approves of it. Judas did not HAVE to betray Christ. It was simply known by Christ that he would betray him. Big difference in what you offer verses the 'truth'. Judas' betrayal sealed his fate just as one would seal their own fate NOW if they so chose to deny or betray Christ.

A little inside information Gendou, when one dies that is not saved, the time that they are left to suffer the remembrance of their misdeeds will certainly 'seem' like an eternity. Imagine being aware of your existence for eighty years without the ability to alter or change it. It would certainly 'seem' like an eternity, especially when you consider that you would NOT know when it was going to end. NOW, substitute 1000 years for that eighty and you get a much better idea of what an eternity could possibly represent.

For you, who obviously has missed this part, or simply choose to deny it, and any others that are unaware: What I refer to is the 'complete' destruction of satan AFTER the 1000 years. Who satan owns will suffer the SAME fate as 'their' father.
 
This is not a game of words concerning eternal Hell. This is not a game at all but very serious business. One can twist, turn or otherwise rationalize a desire not to accept God's Word and the seriousness of the matter but when the rubber meets the road the game is over. If I choose not to accept God's Word, if I choose not to believe the truth of the matter or if I choose not to accept God's love then God won't make me do something forever I'm unwilling to do now. If I choose to rebel that choice is mine, not His. If by choice I distance myself from God then by that choice I'll not be made to be in His presence, He won't make you do that here or in the hereafter.
The body dies, the spirit lives unto judgement. And if it's the spirit of rebellion then indeed the spirit's desire will be fulfilled... forever.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
Potluck, you haven't proven anything. As I expected you quoted so many Scriptures from a Bible full of errors (Not that there are any translations that are perfect.) The words translated "Eternal," "for ever" ect. are translated from the word "Aion" and it's many forms. They in no way can mean eternal. Here is proof.

Revelation 20:10 ...and shall be tormented day and night forever
[aion] and ever,[aion]

Now, instead of the words for ever and ever[they are an english saying] substitute eternally.

Revelation 20:10 ...and shall be tormented day and night eternally and eternally,


Pray tell, does that make sense?

So, you offer scripture yourself that refutes your own statement. 'Them that believe' certainly doesn't in ANY way indicate 'all that exist'.

How? Let's look at that again.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Of course 'them that believe' does not mean 'all that exist.' That's ludicrous! But it does say that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. Specially or Chiefly means that those that believe have a special salvation and no way takes away from those who don't believe.
There are two groups: Those who believe and Those who don't. Both are saved. This is really simply.
 
Gendou Ikari,
You cannot zero in one a couple verses you feel you can twist to your liking while ingoring those you cannot refute.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


"taking vengeance on them"

who?

"them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

How?

"with everlasting destruction"

To what end?

"from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; "
 
For you see Judas could have been forgiven, but he confessed and repented to man rather than to God, of his evil. A murderer can be forgiven if he asks for forgiviness. Now sometimes you have to pay dire consequences for your sins, and sometimes God lets you live. Judas hung himself. Jesus or the Father did not order this.

Good Afternoon ALL !

I was just browsing the forum and I saw this post, and well... I wondered.... First, which to me was the most disturbing, was that you said a murderer can have forgiveness..... ? WHAT ? As that it contrary to The Word of God... is it not ? I was wonderfing if you have read that a murdered can NOT have salvation in the flesh, this is why God, The Father DEMANDS capital punishment of someone who premediates ot lie and wait to take a life, criminal homicide.

I John 3:15
" Whosoever hatethhis brother is a murderer; AND YE KNOW THAT NO MURDERER HATH ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN HIM. "

A murder, one who premediates, or lies in wait, or intentionally kills another can NOT have salavtion in the "flesh", they must first go to The Father, this is why God demands capital punishment in Numbers 35 & Deuteronomy 19.

Numbers 35:16-18
" And if he smite [ smite= That being intentionally, so that he die] him with an instrument of iron, SO THAT HE DIE, he is a MURDERER; THE MURDERER SHALL [ not maybe, not perhaps, but SHALL] BE PUT TO DEATH. And if he smite him with throwing a stone [ A stone large enough to kill one with], wherewith he may die, AND HE DIE, HE IS A MURDERER; THE MURDERER SHALL SURLEY BE PUT TO DEATH. OR if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, AND HE DIE, HE IS A MURDERER, THE MURDERER SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH. "

Deuteronomy 19:11-12
" But if ANY man hate his neighbor, AND LIE IN WAIT FOR HIM, and rise up against him, AND SMITE HIM MORTALLY THAT HE DIE, and fleeth into one of these cities [ cities of refuge]. Then the elders of his city SHALL snd and FETCH him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger [ the avenger being the nearest of kin] of blood, THAT HE MAY DIE ! "

This is called execuction.

Now with regards to Judas, do you honestly think that he knew that they would KILL Jesus Christ. Hey.... did you ever think that is WHY Judas " REPENTED HIMSELF ", he repented [ Matthew 27:3] ! And he "REPENTED HIMSELF" before he appeared before the cheif priests with the thirty pieces of silver. Judas didn't kill Christ. And where are you getting that he repented to "man" ? It is NOT written. And to say that he committed suicide ? I don't get that. It is written that Judas was hung and cut from his adams apple to his stomache and all his intestines and such fell out. Did the who shot himself in the back of the head 10 times comitt suicide too ? Of course NOT ! He was murdered, just a Judas was murdered ! Most likely by the same people who allowed Christ to be crucified, they are identified in John 8:44, they are the tares in the Parable of the Whaet and the tares Matthew 13:38-39, they are the bad figs, which takes us all the way back to the Garden of Eden , in which they covered themselves with "fig" leaves. Anyways back to Judas....

Acts 1:18 the subject here is Judas verses 16 &17
" Now this man [ Judas, when he through down those thirty shekels, and they rang out in the temple] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; AND FALLING HEADLONG, HE BURST ASUNDER IN THE MIDST, AND ALL HIS BOWELS GUSHED OUT. "

Matthew 27:5
" And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. "

This word hanged in the greek is "chocked" and means to sufficate with greif. Now if Judas hanged himself well he had alot of help according to Acts chapter 1. The high preist really couldn't afford for Judas, a witness, walking around that could finger the high preist as to being responsible for that crucifixtion, so therefre, they cut him from his neck to his navel. They could of cared a less that Judas had repented himself.


Abiyah


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