Justification and Sanctification

[Papa Zoom]

This thread has generated a lot of reports. If it continues,We'll have to close it. Stop labeling the beliefs of others. Stop addressing the person and address your position only. Stop saying "that's not biblical" because that carries with it that the other is promoting a non-biblical view. That's a personal shot. Reread your posts before hitting the reply button. Don't tell others what they believe. Don't even come close to that. Address the view and offer your Scriptural support for said view.

And to be clear: The Bible doesn't say anything. We all infer from the text. So when you share YOUR view, it's NOT the biblical view that you're sharing - it's your view from how you understand the text. This is true for all of us. So STOP saying it. The implication is that the opposing view is NOT biblical.

You may in fact be right. But claim something doesn't make it so. And we all know this to be the case.

As usual, don't reply to this text.

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't questioned your language.


Since I've discussed with many Arminians, and a number have abused the present tense, I don't remember your posts about it.


Now, how is that helpful? Could you at least provide post #s or threads with post #s so I don't have to spend countless hours looking?


They were specific.


How is that? Because I don't agree with some of them?


Sorry that you feel that way. But since you clearly casted doubt on the Tribulation, you've given me that impression.


I always answer the posts of others who comment on my posts. I believe that's the polite way to act. Ignoring others seems rather rude to me. If you don't want to continue discussion, then just stop replying to my posts. Then I'd have nothing to reply to.

Oh, and btw, if you really don't want any of my posts, just tell me so I won't reply to anything you post to others.


Without a refresh, I have no idea what it means in your view.


People tell me a lot of things that are wrong, or don't even relate to my posts. So I'm not impressed with what people tell me.

What I need is evidence from Scripture. And just because you "posted a bunch of verses" isn't meaningful unless they actually refute my view or claims.

btw, since it seems posting a bunch of verses means something to you, how come when I do that to prove my view, no one from the Arminian side seems to notice?

Maybe it only works one way?

Please see post no. 246
Page 13

It answers all those verses you posted and it explains the present tense.

And since your posts are becoming very personal,
please do not reply to me.
I'm just posting the page and number as a courtesy to you.

 

[ezra]

Ezra,
I don't know what conditions JLB added, but I can say that I tend to trust him.
If you mean that the condition is to Repent and Obey, then I'd have to agree.

One must REPENT.
Turn around. One was going toward the evil one. We're born into this condition.
If we do NOT repent we continue walking toward the evil one.
But then we become born from above, we notice that there's a God.
So we Repend and turn the other way...
Now we are walking toward God.
One MUST repent in order to be saved.

And Obey.
How could one not obey the one he loves??
If we do not obey God, it's a sign that we care not about Him.
If we don't care about Him and love Him, are we saved??
John 14:15

repent and obey for those in christ.. but justified is a one time thing after that we have a advocate . once again i knew nothing about repentance when i got saved . yes getting saved is the act of repentance for the lost . the jailer asked what must i do to be saved......the reply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who so ever shall call upon the name of the Lord .shall be saved .. not repent and obey that follows after we get saved . the Church sign fishers of men we catch them God Cleans them.. not God Cleans them.. what can make me whole again nothing but The Blood of Jesus who paid the debt for our sins--JESUS IT IS FINISHED JUSTIFIED BY FAITH 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,2through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.… justified by grace 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through theredemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.…

 

[JLB]

Apparently you don't see.

So, let's take a look at what the Bible says about it.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

I hope one sees perspective from both men and the Lord. That's what "eyes of the Lord and eyes of man" refers to.

But, if that isn't enough, let's look at:
Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Would one agree that recieving human approval would amount to being "justified in the eyes of men"?

Or these verses:
Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Would one agree that doing what is right in the eyes of everyone amounts to being justified in their eyes?

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

Is it not clear that winning the respect of outsiders is a form of being "justified in their eyes"?

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

I think most peope would agree that having a good reputation with outsiders means to be "justified in their eyes".

It's all about perspective. And James 2 is about justification before others. Which is exactly what 2:18 is about: if a believer doesn't have works, their faith cannot be seen.

What would the result be for that? Claiming to be a Christian but not living like one will result in the charge of being a huge hypocrite.

In fact, 2:15,16 gives us a primse example of just such a hypocrite.


The whole point of James 2:14-26 is to demonstrate your faith by works.
2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."


I gave 5 verses that speak of how a believer is to live before outsiders, everyone. And each one is about others' perspective of us as believers.

Yes we are to love and serve people, as ambassadors of Christ.

However it is God who justifies us by faith.

Not man.

By faith means we obey when God commands us.

That is why it’s called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

James teaches us the truth.


It is God who gave the command to offer Isaac on the altar, and it was God who justified Abraham when he obeyed and offered Isaac.

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:23-24

Our justification comes from God, when we obey Him.


Edited out because this goes against the VERY THING I just posted about. Don't tell other people what they think and don't label their views.


JLB

 

[ezra]

By faith means we obey when God commands us.

That is why it’s called the obedience of faith.

and that is correct but these things come as we grow not instant this where sanctification comes in changed from Glory to glory one step at a time

 

[Papa Zoom]

and that is correct but these things come as we grow not instant this where sanctification comes in changed from Glory to glory one step at a time

Amen brother. My paint is still wet but I'm pressing on as I'm being conformed to the image of The Son.

 

[JLB]

and that is correct but these things come as we grow not instant this where sanctification comes in changed from Glory to glory one step at a time

Yes which is why sanctification is an ongoing process.

And why Abraham was justified several times.

 

[ezra]

Amen brother. My paint is still wet but I'm pressing on as I'm being conformed to the image of The Son.

the first church i was pastor at i hung a green tag i got from work we put on baskets that tells what the next machinery step the parts are ready for , W.I. P . that is exactly what we are are being made Holy is not a one time thing .. i like the somg iam glad he didmt throw the clay away

 

[ezra]

And why Abraham was justified several times.

not so sure i can agree with that being justified means to be declared Righteous ..not guilty just as if we had never sinned

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes we are to love and serve people, as ambassadors of Christ.

However it is God who justifies us by faith.

Not man.

I provided many verses that cleary show that we are to conduct ourselves in the eyes of God and in the eyes of men. That is about perspective. How God sees us and how man sees us.

For God, He doesn't need to see one's conduct. He sees and knows the heart. And He justifies on the basis of faith, which man cannot see.

So, the one who claims to be a Christian, his lifestyle and deeds must demonstrate his faith, so others can see that. James 2:18

 

[Douglas Summers]

Greetings. My Son.



Actually I am your Mother in Christ.
I don't think so.....I'm 72. You might be my sister in Christ, if so, than that would make me your "brother in Christ."
In our Saviors Grace
Douglas Summers

 

[ezra]

And He justifies on the basis of faith, which man cannot see.

this word justifies /justified /justification which all has the same meaning .on post says justified many times in what manner is this word being used? i for one do not want to take a word out of context

 

[PeterJens]

What is critical thinking and cognitive disonance.
Critical thinking is taking any proposition or idea and testing it.
Cognitive disonance is when one idea is connected to another which should not be followed.

So I can put on wings and jump off a building and fly. I could go through the possibility of what
is possible, areodynamic lift provided, balancing out ones weight, and conclude if it is possible.
That is critical thinking. Cognitive dissonance would say birds fly with wings, so can I.

The real problem is those who suffer from cognitive dissonance cannot be argued with, because
their belief system relies on a jump that is not vulnerable to facts.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I said:
" But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”"

If there is no truth in one's reply, then yes, they mean nothing.


I can't answer for anyone else, but I believe it is polite to answer the posts of others. Unless they ask me to not reply any more.


I'll have to ask what you know about the present tense first. What does it mean or indicate to you?

Then I'll be able to answer your question.

Thanks.

the big issue here Free Grace is that when you quote verses that point at salvation through faith ----those verses are mostly correct because we are saved ny faith. But the burning question is WAS THAT FAITH SAVING FAITH? Did the believer OBEY the Lord or continued to live out a sinful Ungodly life?
If that is the case then there was no faith in the first place. By stoutly and persistently denying the importance of obedience --as explained b y Christ Himself in His great commission to ALL His followewrs across the globe and gtime ---Matthew 28:18-20.

Matthew 28:18-20New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to OBEY everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Why is there so much resistance to Lord's commission? Why is it so hard to understand that the lord will NOT be there till the end of the ages with the believer UNLESS we do as He says in this verse---- OBEY.
Why did Christ WARNING in :
Revelation 2:23
I will strike her ( Jezebel's) children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Again Jesus repeats the importance of obedience in the following verse in

Revelation 2:26 ►

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

Jesus expects us to be obedient till the end of our lives and if I may say so, expects not just obedience but obedience to the point of death --- just as He did from the apostles who laid down their lives while following the Lord and spreading the good news of the gospel.

Also I wonder if faith alone saved why did Christ ask the rich man to give away all His riches to the poor and come and follow Him. He could have simply said Believe in me and you will be saved. But Jesus didn't say that. WHY?
Why did Paul caution with the words "WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling"?
The answer is obvious. paul knew they could LOSE IT! Their salvation. See my friend none of us knows who will be saved and who will NOT be saved. I do not know if I will be saved ---a born again believer in Lord Christ. But i do know one thing , if I persevere with my faith until the end ( or MY end) and be obedient and fruitful for the kingdom, the Lord will have mercy. That's all I can hope for. I cannot put a gun to Christ and command him to save me. Our sins are so many my friend, that we have no right to salvation. Its FREE GRACE of the Lord Jesus--- wherever believes in Him may have eternal life.
yet those who elect to believe but NOT OBEY will not see eternal life as John the Baptist reveals in John 3: 36 for God's wrath remains on that person
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Brother, I do not know who will be saved and who will not be--- thats Christ's call
Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

But I do know one thing, it's very dangerous for a believer who believes but does not obey the Lord or bear any fruit for the kingdom. We are not just believers in the word. we have to be DOERS as well. may God bless all people across the board and across the globe. may His will be done. May His wisdom come on us that we may see the truth as Jesus would like us to

 

[PeterJens]

An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes.
For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
Psalm 36:1-3

O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
Jeremiah 4:14-15

These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this," declares the LORD.
Zechariah 8:16-17

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.
John 7:7

Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
1 John 2:10-11

If you notice these verses, it is not about knowing the persons heart but seeing the actions that
come out of the heart. So a believer can claim they have faith, but if they have hate in their heart,
it makes them blind and they will sin and not be aware of it.

 

[ezra]

wow it must be rabbit season..i see a lot of rabbits being chased

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"And He justifies on the basis of faith, which man cannot see."

this word justifies /justified /justification which all has the same meaning .on post says justified many times in what manner is this word being used? i for one do not want to take a word out of context

I provided a number of verses that show that there are 2 perspectives related the believer: God's perspective and man's perspective in post #300.

So, when we consider the word "justification", we must consider the context to determine "justified in the eyes of whom".

James was dealing with how believers are perceived by others based on whether the believer's faith is demonstrated by their deeds. 2:18

 

[FreeGrace]

What is critical thinking and cognitive disonance.
Critical thinking is taking any proposition or idea and testing it.
Cognitive disonance is when one idea is connected to another which should not be followed.

So I can put on wings and jump off a building and fly. I could go through the possibility of what
is possible, areodynamic lift provided, balancing out ones weight, and conclude if it is possible.
That is critical thinking. Cognitive dissonance would say birds fly with wings, so can I.

The real problem is those who suffer from cognitive dissonance cannot be argued with, because
their belief system relies on a jump that is not vulnerable to facts.

OK, give an example from this thread.

 

[PeterJens]

OK, give an example from this thread.

My friend, the whole point about sharing about approaches is to educate people so that as individuals
we apply the right approaches. I am not here to make judgements or point out people, that is for individuals
to look at what they do and learn how to be a critical thinker, and avoid cognitive dissonance.
I can fail at this just as much as anyone, This illustrates why the whole area of seeing truth and reality
is so fraught with danger.

For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
Psalm 36:2

This sums up the problem very neatly.
God bless you, and may the Lord shine His light in your heart every day.

 

[FreeGrace]

the big issue here Free Grace is that when you quote verses that point at salvation through faith ----those verses are mostly correct because we are saved ny faith.

By saying "those verses are mostly correct" is at least an insinuation that they have some error in them. I strongly reject that notion.

But the burning question is WAS THAT FAITH SAVING FAITH? Did the believer OBEY the Lord or continued to live out a sinful Ungodly life?

Please provide verses that differentiate between a faith that saves vs a faith that doesn't. I don't accept that notion because I haven't found any such verse. But if there is any, please share.

If that is the case then there was no faith in the first place.

But since we DO find the word "faith" in Scripture, obviously there IS faith.

By stoutly and persistently denying the importance of obedience --as explained b y Christ Himself in His great commission to ALL His followewrs across the globe and gtime ---Matthew 28:18-20.

Matthew 28:18-20New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to OBEY everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Why is there so much resistance to Lord's commission? Why is it so hard to understand that the lord will NOT be there till the end of the ages with the believer UNLESS we do as He says in this verse---- OBEY.

Please identify the verse or words in this passage that tells us that salvation adds obedience to faith in order to be saved.

Why did Christ WARNING in :
Revelation 2:23
I will strike her ( Jezebel's) children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Because He will repay each of them according to their deeds. But how does one leap from being repaid for deeds to a requirement of obedience for salvation??

Again Jesus repeats the importance of obedience in the following verse in

Revelation 2:26 ►

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

This seems rather obviously about rewards for obedience.

Jesus expects us to be obedient till the end of our lives and if I may say so, expects not just obedience but obedience to the point of death --- just as He did from the apostles who laid down their lives while following the Lord and spreading the good news of the gospel.

Of course Jesus expects all believers to be obedient. But not for salvation. Most of the salvation verses that mention ONLY faith in Him were said by Him.

Also I wonder if faith alone saved why did Christ ask the rich man to give away all His riches to the poor and come and follow Him. He could have simply said Believe in me and you will be saved. But Jesus didn't say that. WHY?

Because Jesus many times made the point that one is saved and POSSESSES eternal life when they believe, it should be obvious that His dealing with the RYR wasn't evangelism, but pre-evangelism. If His comments were in regard to getting into heaven, He would have contradicted Himself, because of the other verses.

Why did Paul caution with the words "WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Because Paul was referring to progressive sanctification, or what some call spiritual growth.

That verse is about the present tense of salvation. There are 3 tenses regarding salvation:
past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. John 5:24. Justification
present tense: saved from the power of sin. 1 John 1:9. Sanctification
future tense: saved from the presence of sin. 1 Cor 15:42,43 Glorification

The answer is obvious. paul knew they could LOSE IT! Their salvation.

Not possible. It was Paul who listed 3 of God's gifts in Romans before he wrote that the gifts of God are irrevocable. The 3 gifts he listed were spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:1516,17, and eternal life in 6:23.

Further, in Eph 1:13,14 he taught that "having believed", the believer is marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption.

The wording is clear that this seal, the Holy Spirit, guarantees our inheritance.

Paul believed in eternal security.

See my friend none of us knows who will be saved and who will NOT be saved.

I do. The Bible tells us who will be saved. It's no mystery.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It's believers who will b saved.

I do not know if I will be saved ---a born again believer in Lord Christ.

Edit....Those He gives eternal life. He said they shall never perish edit. Why, given what Jesus said in John 10:28?

In John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27 Jesus said those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. So that fact, combined with 10:28 proves that once given eternal life, one shall never perish.

But i do know one thing , if I persevere with my faith until the end ( or MY end) and be obedient and fruitful for the kingdom, the Lord will have mercy.

This indicates to me that the finished work of Christ is of no effect edit. That your ultimate salvation is all up to you.

Well, my friend, my full trust and confidence is in the finished work of Christ on the cross on my behalf for salvation.

That's all I can hope for.

That's only wishful thinking. The Greek word for "hope" means confident expectation, which you've made clear that you don't have.

I cannot put a gun to Christ and command him to save me.

No. All anyone can do is believe what He said about salvation and eternal life:
John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Our sins are so many my friend, that we have no right to salvation.

That's exactly WHY Christ had to come to earth and die for every sin ever committed. Do you believe that Christ died for all your sins, most of your sins, some of your sins, or a few of your sins?

Its FREE GRACE of the Lord Jesus--- wherever believes in Him may have eternal life.

Edit....By your own admission, you said: "if I persevere with my faith until the end ( or MY end) and be obedient and fruitful for the kingdom, the Lord will have mercy."

yet those who elect to believe but NOT OBEY will not see eternal life as John the Baptist reveals in John 3: 36 for God's wrath remains on that person
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Brother, I do not know who will be saved and who will not be--- thats Christ's call

Please research the Greek word for "disobey" in 3:36. It is apeitho, and means to "disbelieve".

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:11-15 shows that no one will be cast into the lake of fire because of any sins. The ONLY reason anyone will be cast into the lake of fire is for not possessing eternal life.

But I do know one thing, it's very dangerous for a believer who believes but does not obey the Lord or bear any fruit for the kingdom.

This may surprise some, but I fully agree with you. But for a different reason. Instead of the "threat" of losing salvation, which, btw, there are NO verses that actually say so, those who believe but don't obey will face God's hand of discipline, which will be painful, per Heb 12:11.