Justification and Sanctification

[ezra]

I said:
"And He justifies on the basis of faith, which man cannot see."

I provided a number of verses that show that there are 2 perspectives related the believer: God's perspective and man's perspective in post #300.

So, when we consider the word "justification", we must consider the context to determine "justified in the eyes of whom".

James was dealing with how believers are perceived by others based on whether the believer's faith is demonstrated by their deeds. 2:18

i was just making sure so as i did not disagree when it is agreeable .. my big issue/ disagreement is Abraham justified several times. justified takes place at salvation. then sanctification takes over

 

[ezra]

But the burning question is WAS THAT FAITH SAVING FAITH? Did the believer OBEY the Lord or continued to live out a sinful Ungodly life?

if they continued to live out a sinful life they never got saved . there is a difference between sinning and continuing . they took lot and his family out but Lots wife looked back . she earned in her heart to be there she never really wanted to leave

 

[FreeGrace]

In post #313, you said this:
"The real problem is those who suffer from cognitive dissonance cannot be argued with, because
their belief system relies on a jump that is not vulnerable to facts."

I asked for an example from this thread.

And you replied:

My friend, the whole point about sharing about approaches is to educate people so that as individuals we apply the right approaches. I am not here to make judgements or point out people, that is for individuals
to look at what they do and learn how to be a critical thinker, and avoid cognitive dissonance.
I can fail at this just as much as anyone, This illustrates why the whole area of seeing truth and reality is so fraught with danger.

Saying "I am not here to make judgments" after what was said in #313 about cognitive dissonance and being unable to argue with such people, you HAVE made judgments.

I asked for an example to demonstrate what was being referring to.

Yet, no examples are given. It's clear from your post 313 that there are such people on this thread, so there should be at least 1 example of what is being referred to.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm still seeing a problem with others defining the belief of others. You cannot do this and that is why I've closed this thread for mod review.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Okay, we're back. Please take care to address only the issue and do not define the beliefs of others or question their faith. We all have different perspectives and such is nothing new. This is the ONE thread I'm reading every post since it's generated so many reports.

To be fair, further problems can result in permanent closing of the thread, suspension from the thread (temporary or permanent) and/or warning points.

If anyone disagrees with my actions you are invited to bring your concerns to the TWTS forum.

Be both familiar with the TOS (particularly 2.4) and the Red Stickys on the forum page http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?forums/theology.9/

 

[PeterJens]

In post #313, you said this:
"The real problem is those who suffer from cognitive dissonance cannot be argued with, because
their belief system relies on a jump that is not vulnerable to facts."

I asked for an example from this thread.

And you replied:

Saying "I am not here to make judgments" after what was said in #313 about cognitive dissonance and being unable to argue with such people, you HAVE made judgments.

I asked for an example to demonstrate what was being referring to.

Yet, no examples are given. It's clear from your post 313 that there are such people on this thread, so there should be at least 1 example of what is being referred to.

Hi Free,
I started a thread on cognitive dissonance, which expands on this theme, with examples I have seen.
I do not hold anything against anyone, and forgive their intentions if they desire harm to me.
I think the aspect of following Jesus is to realise He is the truth, the way and the life, and only when
things involve and refer to Him do they get put in their right perspective.

I put it like this. Walking closer to Jesus makes things clearer, which is a contradiction because there
is no objective perspective, because He is the ultimate reference point. This goes against our experience
of science where objectivity is crucial to determine the facts. Jesus describes heaven as

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:5-6

Part of my heart wanted objectivity, but Jesus is saying there is no such thing. Gaining objectivity is
rebellion and not abiding.

I found this reality in the youthful rebellion which often led to nihilistic philosophy and a cynical view of
love and dependency. But this is no surprise as the essence of heaven is love and this flowing through
and out of us, which is dwelling in Christ, Amen.

I suspect the Lord made the universe so the opposite to walking with Him is plausible, so when we are
called and choose His ways, He knows it is sincere and true. I hope this helps, God bless you,
Peter

 

[Papa Zoom]

On more thing peeps: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...d-before-posting-in-the-theology-forum.70372/

Read this. It's fast and if everyone follows it, this thread will survive. No, I didn't write it. ;)

 

[PeterJens]

I was asked could I look for biblical foundations for saying Jesus is in my heart and I desire to follow Him.
Jesus said this,
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11

Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 John 4:11-12

Now how does Jesus bring this about in individuals, I do not know, but I know He does.
Now all I can do is testify to this, it is up to the reader to make what they will of it,
God bless you
Peter

 

[Papa Zoom]

I was asked could I look for biblical foundations for saying Jesus is in my hear

Saying Jesus is in my heart is just another way of saying something else about one's relationship with the Savior. It is Biblical depending on what one means. If one simply means they acknowledge who He says He is, that's of no avail. One can believe the claims of Christ without following him.

But if one means by Jesus is in (their) heart that they seek repentance (Acts 3:19) (a changed heart that agrees with God) and want to become a follower of Jesus, that they understand that apart from Jesus' reconciling us to God we remain lost, then yes, it's quite a biblical thing to say: (Ephesians 3:17) It's another way of saying they want Jesus in their life. It says, "I'm a believer in HIM and I depend on him for my salvation." (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)

Salvation isn't about believing a bunch of facts, it's about believing in and following a person. Jesus Christ. I suspect that because explaining what it means or the "how to" in following Christ is much more involved, Christians in good faith sought to narrow evangelism explanations into something easy to understand (but which in reality doesn't help a new convert understand anything).

Knowing that such a statement lacks clarity, I no longer use it. It's probably easier to focus on becoming a follower of Jesus and a Believer in Jesus followed by an exact explanation of what that means.

I'm not sure but I may have just strayed off topic.

 

[JLB]

Saying Jesus is in my heart is just another way of saying something else about one's relationship with the Savior. It is Biblical depending on what one means. If one simply means they acknowledge who He says He is, that's of no avail. One can believe the claims of Christ without following him.

But if one means by Jesus is in (their) heart that they seek repentance (Acts 3:19) (a changed heart that agrees with God) and want to become a follower of Jesus, that they understand that apart from Jesus' reconciling us to God we remain lost, then yes, it's quite a biblical thing to say: (Ephesians 3:17) It's another way of saying they want Jesus in their life. It says, "I'm a believer in HIM and I depend on him for my salvation." (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)

Salvation isn't about believing a bunch of facts, it's about believing in and following a person. Jesus Christ. I suspect that because explaining what it means or the "how to" in following Christ is much more involved, Christians in good faith sought to narrow evangelism explanations into something easy to understand (but which in reality doesn't help a new convert understand anything).

Knowing that such a statement lacks clarity, I no longer use it. It's probably easier to focus on becoming a follower of Jesus and a Believer in Jesus followed by an exact explanation of what that means.

I'm not sure but I may have just strayed off topic.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Free,
I started a thread on cognitive dissonance, which expands on this theme, with examples I have seen.

OK. I'll check it out.

I put it like this. Walking closer to Jesus makes things clearer, which is a contradiction because there
is no objective perspective, because He is the ultimate reference point. This goes against our experience
of science where objectivity is crucial to determine the facts.

I don't understand the point here, or if there is a point. The opposite of objective is subjective. There are many many problems with subjectivity, since it is different for everyone. But objectivity is the truth, and not subject to subjectivity.

Our spiritual relationship should be objective, absolutely not subjective. Subjectivity is unstable, whereas objectivity is stable.

Jesus describes heaven as

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:5-6

I don't see anything about "heaven" in these verses. I do see abiding in Christ, having fellowship with him, and producing fruit as a result.

Part of my heart wanted objectivity, but Jesus is saying there is no such thing.

Where did Jesus say this?

Gaining objectivity is rebellion and not abiding.

What is this claim based on?

I found this reality in the youthful rebellion which often led to nihilistic philosophy and a cynical view of
love and dependency.

Youthful rebellion is highly subjective and totally lacks objectivity.

 

[PeterJens]

Saying Jesus is in my heart is just another way of saying something else about one's relationship with the Savior. It is Biblical depending on what one means. If one simply means they acknowledge who He says He is, that's of no avail. One can believe the claims of Christ without following him.

But if one means by Jesus is in (their) heart that they seek repentance (Acts 3:19) (a changed heart that agrees with God) and want to become a follower of Jesus, that they understand that apart from Jesus' reconciling us to God we remain lost, then yes, it's quite a biblical thing to say: (Ephesians 3:17) It's another way of saying they want Jesus in their life. It says, "I'm a believer in HIM and I depend on him for my salvation." (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)

Salvation isn't about believing a bunch of facts, it's about believing in and following a person. Jesus Christ. I suspect that because explaining what it means or the "how to" in following Christ is much more involved, Christians in good faith sought to narrow evangelism explanations into something easy to understand (but which in reality doesn't help a new convert understand anything).

Knowing that such a statement lacks clarity, I no longer use it. It's probably easier to focus on becoming a follower of Jesus and a Believer in Jesus followed by an exact explanation of what that means.

I'm not sure but I may have just strayed off topic.

Amen, following Jesus, finding ones way through, growing in His grace.

 

[PeterJens]

OK. I'll check it out.


I don't understand the point here, or if there is a point. The opposite of objective is subjective. There are many many problems with subjectivity, since it is different for everyone. But objectivity is the truth, and not subject to subjectivity.

Our spiritual relationship should be objective, absolutely not subjective. Subjectivity is unstable, whereas objectivity is stable.


I don't see anything about "heaven" in these verses. I do see abiding in Christ, having fellowship with him, and producing fruit as a result.


Where did Jesus say this?


What is this claim based on?


Youthful rebellion is highly subjective and totally lacks objectivity.

In Christ there is never objectivity, because we are in Him and He is in us.
When you are at the end of ones emotional energy, to snuggle those you love,
relax, gain strength, is never objective, it is just safe and refreshing.
I am an animal bound by biology and basic human needs and desires. I can never
be free from them, they are hard wired into my existance.
My emotions and those I feel from others, are actually my body guessing at what is
being shown to me. My thoughts, my learning, my perception will always be filtered
presented and subjective. In knowing this weakness, we can aspire to what is truly
great in knowing Christ.

In Christ as the creator of the universe we meet the true source of objectivity.
Ironic that in giving our life to Him, we find the ultimate truth to existance.

 

[FreeGrace]

In Christ there is never objectivity, because we are in Him and He is in us.

Because we are in Him and His is in us is a fact, it is total objectivity, and zero subjectivity.

I am an animal bound by biology and basic human needs and desires. I can never
be free from them, they are hard wired into my existance.

Well, we certainly disagree on this. I am a human being, different from an animal. Paul said this:
1 Cor 15:39 - 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

My emotions and those I feel from others, are actually my body guessing at what is
being shown to me. My thoughts, my learning, my perception will always be filtered
presented and subjective. In knowing this weakness, we can aspire to what is truly
great in knowing Christ.

Emotions are subjective.

In Christ as the creator of the universe we meet the true source of objectivity.

This is opposite to the first part of your post, where you said this:
"In Christ there is never objectivity"

So, which is it?

 

[ezra]

somebody help me to understand the squabble over justification and sanctification .both take place at the new Birth he justifies us like in a court of law slams the gavel declares us not guilty =just as if we had never sinned. he wipe our past out .he cast our sins into the sea of forgetfulness and how deep is that sea as far as the east is to the west.. case closed sanctification set apart for service and to be made Holy which is a work in progress
justified by faith and justified by Grace . which leaves us out of the picture we have no control over his amazing Grace . we either have been justified sanctified or we have not . no straddling the fence justification is a one time thing...yes once .after that any sin has to be dealt with through the advocate and yes we must repent . Godly sorrow brings repentance a broken and contrite spirit some believe in eternal security 2 others believe we can walk away and be lost again... 2. this post has nothing to do with either one.. there has been many rabbits chased . so is there any way to agree on what justification and sanctification . which is a act of God much like apul said grace was the gift of God.. which leaves us out of the picture :amen or is some one more justification and sanctified than someone else.. if they are would you please tell me how

 

[JLB]

somebody help me to understand the squabble over justification and sanctification .both take place at the new Birth he justifies us like in a court of law slams the gavel declares us not guilty =just as if we had never sinned. he wipe our past out .he cast our sins into the sea of forgetfulness and how deep is that sea as far as the east is to the west.. case closed sanctification set apart for service and to be made Holy which is a work in progress
justified by faith and justified by Grace . which leaves us out of the picture we have no control over his amazing Grace . we either have been justified sanctified or we have not . no straddling the fence justification is a one time thing...yes once .after that any sin has to be dealt with through the advocate and yes we must repent . Godly sorrow brings repentance a broken and contrite spirit some believe in eternal security 2 others believe we can walk away and be lost again... 2. this post has nothing to do with either one.. there has been many rabbits chased . so is there any way to agree on what justification and sanctification . which is a act of God much like apul said grace was the gift of God.. which leaves us out of the picture :amen or is some one more justification and sanctified than someone else.. if they are would you please tell me how

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24


JLB

 

[chessman]

somebody help me to understand the squabble over justification and sanctification .

James says “you see” (people, plural, see) that a person is justified by works ...:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James 2:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 2:24&version=LEB

A squabbling occurs when the verse is changed to:
‘God justifies by works and not by faith alone.’

 

[ezra]

James says “you see” (people, plural, see) that a person is justified by works ...:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James 2:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 2:24&version=LEB

A squabbling occurs when the verse is changed to:
‘God justifies by works and not by faith alone.’

see the type works james talks about his a righteous work .the works many gets confused on is self righteous works . big difference and faith is the key by which we do it. work follow salvation

 

[ezra]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24


JLB

basically what james is saying is FAITH works use it

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

James says “you see” (people, plural, see) that a person is justified by works ...:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James 2:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 2:24&version=LEB

A squabbling occurs when the verse is changed to:
‘God justifies by works and not by faith alone.’

I believe the Bible is rather clear on the fact that good works CANNOT save anyone . I whole heartedly agree. We are justified by Faith , and that's how we receive the free gift of life through the atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is good doctrine . The question here is What is True Saving Faith ? Answering an alter call or randomly believing , living the same sinful life without a change after accepting Christ as Savior ? Will such "Faiths" save ? I do not think so. Unfortunately many Churches are teaching " your SALVATION can never be lost" Why do they say that ? We know EACH DEED of our ours will be put under the scanner by none less than Christ Jesus Himself who says in
Revelation 2:23

" I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Again in Matthew 7:19 Christ issues a stern warning ( be fruitful! else face the consequences....)
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The tree Jesus is referring to IMO is everyone, especially us believers.
Our deeds follow us everywhere. Let me quote a verse which clearly defines that
Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
These above persons mentioned were obedient to the point of death . Just like each one of the twelve ordinary men who willingly laid down their lives for the Lord and the gospel and who have now become renowned as the Twelve Apostles of Lord Jesus Christ . I wonder why they chose to get beaten jailed attacked and finally killed in most chilling ways . Each of the twelve Apostles ( but for John whose life I believe was spared to write the incredible book of Revelation)
Let's examine how MUCH suffering was Paul enduring for the Lord and the gospel .
Here are his own words . Words of a true follower , who well understood that it was as important to OBEY as BELIEVE.
Let us then my brothers and sisters examine Paul's account in his own words :
2 Cor 11 : 23- 27
" I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.25 Three times I was beaten with rods,once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city,in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."
The question that comes to my mind is why were the followers of Christ prepared to suffer so SEVERELY that is almost unimaginable . Question is why were they WILLING to suffer so deeply even though they knew they were saved? This question needs to be pondered on.
The answer in my opinion is THEY ALSO KNEW the IMPORTANCE of obedience in Christ's teachings . And therefore they were obedient to the point of death.
I am NOT Christ and therefore I do NOT know who all will be saved and who will not be. And I can say with much confidence that neither do the pastors and teachers know , the ones who are liberally issuing guarantees of salvation to all who claimed they believed.
Can I share something else please ? The Apostles died a horrendous death not to enter heaven or receive great rewards . They willingly laid down their lives for Jesus because THEY LOVED HIM more than their own lives.....and they remembered His great commission
Matthew 28: 18 -20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”