Justification and Sanctification

[Rajesh Sahu]

You mentioned the Pope and it made me stop reading.
The Pope may teach this, but I know most Christian churches do.
This idea of not having to do works is a NEW idea. It's poison.
All Jesus did was tell us to do works.
Find me one verse where Jesus says we only need to have faith and DO NOTHING and we'll still be saved. The only place is in John 6:29 where Jesus says that this is the work of God, that we BELIEVE in Him whom HE has sent.
Fine. But then, please explain the word believe and what it means in the way that Jesus used it, or IOW, in koine Greek which Jesus MIGHT have knows, but which certainly was used to write the N.T. It's saying that we are to be committed to God's works, which are all the things Jesus told us to DO.
Feed the hungry, clothe the nakes, honor our parents, worship God, etc.
Also negatives must be included.

As you know, I do believe that salvation can be lost. If it could not be lost, Paul and Jesus and all the other writers would not have spent so much time telling us to be careful so as not to loose it. I refer you to only this scripture (but there are many):
John 15:1-6
Jesus is saying that He is the vine and Father is the vine dresser.
Father prunes the branches that bear fruit, so that they may bear even more.
The branches that do not bear fruit, Father takes away. He removes them.

Jesus tells His followers that they are clean because of Him and the word which He has spoken. John 15:3

Jesus tells them that they must abide (abide, present tense) in Him, so that they could bear fruit. By ourselves we can do nothing. We must ABIDE in Christ.
What happens if we decide not to abide in Him any longer?

John 15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
NASB

I'm not even saying the buring means hell, but it certainly means destruction.
The branches that do not bear fruit are destroyed and burned up.

How do you get around that?

Jesus is eternal life, as long as you are IN Jesus. And if you are in Jesus then he does require you and us to do as He commanded.

You mention the Kingdom of God. Jesus set up the Kingdom of God right here on earth. A Kingdom has a ruler: Jesus
A Kingdom has a population living within it: Us
A Kingdom has rules that must be kept: Jesus made the rules.

If you don't keep the rules, you cannot stay in the Kingdom.

The Holy Spirit led Paul to write many passages that say exactly how we are to remain saved. For instance, What does Romans 12:1 mean to you? We are to present our bodies a living sacrifice. We are to sacrifice ourselves in every way to God, when we go to work, or school, when we do our every day things, we are to do them as unto God, for God. Isn't this doing something for God? Can we call this works or good deeds?

Osas has been refuted by the church and still is refuted by most of the church.
Only Calvin in 1,500 came up with this idea of eternal security. It was not in the belief system of the church till then. Gnostics believed this to an extent. But Gnostics are a heretical group. Apparently they are still around today.


I'll post this especially for those reading along, but there is much much more...

What did the early church teach about salvation and eternal security? Many of the church fathers living from the first to the third centuries believed and taught conditional security. They taught that a person was saved by faith through the grace of God but they had to live a life dedicated to Christ until the end. Let’s examine some of the quotes from their writings. Justin Martyr wrote around 160 A.D.: “I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic law], and have denied that this man is Christ , and have not
repented before death— you will by no means be saved.” [Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 218] “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your household will lose all hope of salvation.”
[Hermas written around 150 and is quoted from Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 23 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998] Irenaeus
wrote around 180 A.D. “Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 525 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998] Clement of Alexandria around 195 A.D. wrote: “It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope nor the endurance of one day; rather, ‘he that endures to the end will be saved.’”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 600 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]

source: http://mfchase.net/Documents/Salvation_and_Eternal_Security.pdf

I fail to understand why you are against good works.
They cannot save you all by themselves, but they surely will keep you saved.
Since works are a sign of your salvation and your desire to do good deeds for the sake of God who cannot be on earth to do them for you, I would think that you'd be happy to do them and to expouse them as necessary for our final salvation.

Jesus Himself said He expects us to ENDURE.
Mathew 10:22

Wondering I simply loved what you wrote! Amen! Amen! You and JLB should be teaching from the pulpit!
Because it was drilled so deep into the psyche of believers that once you believe you're covered for eternity, they refuse to see deeper truth of the message---No grace without obedience. I fully endorse the view you put forward. I would rather believe what the early Church teachers taught rather than what is being taught today--- which I unfortunately believe is heresy--- and therefore extremely dangerous, even lethal. It's serving the devil as much it's serving the Lord, perhaps more!--- since its producing fruitless Christians who only think about their own guaranteed salvation. It's even more important to wake up fellow believers to the TRUTH of the Bible as you and JLB have cited---- since the world is coming to an end. In my humble opinion, you guys (JLB, Wondering Johan, and some others too) got the message correctly. I would love for all to understand that it's very very important to keep Lord's commands until the end. At least give your best. I DONT Say that good works save. But I also believe that Faith without obedeince is like a tree which can bear no fruit. And Jesus tells us what Father God will do with the trees which bear no fruit.
I accept everything written in the Word and based on what was written I strongly urge brothers and sisters to keep the commands and follow the Lord diligently and stop craving salvation. Crave MORE to ABIDE in the Lord Jesus. And HOW does one abide in Christ? By following Him and keeping His commands----especially of loving all. I will now be providing links to some iconic Christian pastors who realized the importance of obedience is directly connected with salvation. And they are now boldly teaching that "Faith without works is dead" doctrine. Please, look for my further posts. If I were quoting heresy why would I implore all to diligently follow the Lord's commands? I say it because it's written all over the NT. I would, therefore, request all Christian brothers, and sisters to keep reminding themselves the same ----- Faith without obedience is dead. And this reminder will galvanize us the soldiers of the kingdom into action. And help us become fruitful

 

[chessman]

God will render Judgement to each Christian as we all stand before His throne to be judged according to our deeds.

How come none of these verses do not say it is Christians that God will Judge, but it is yourself that does?

 

[Douglas Summers]

By faith we are restored into a Father Child relationship.

(Excerpts from Romans Chapter 8) Greetings Johan in the name of our Father and our Lord Jesus Chris, Who alone has purged us from our sins by His own Blood, who has given us The Holy Spirit and Sonship conforming us to the image of Christ (complete conformity). For as many that are led by The Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. And if we are children of God, then we are heirs of God, and Joint heirs with Christ-If so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together with Him.

For the earnest expectation of the creation, waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. For the creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Johan, Please pray for the Spiritual strength of the foreign missions, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Many foreign missionaries have been martyred. Pray earnestly in the Spirit.

Peace in God's promises and His Holy Grace.
Your brother in Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Traveling teacher]

You cant separate

hello Traveling teacher, dirtfarmer here

You have reversed the order: If you are not Justified you can't be sanctified. The lifelong relationship with God is always through his Son. Without the crucifixion of Christ on the cross, a relationship with God cannot be established. Christ is the righteousness of God that has been imputed to those that believe in the cross-work of Christ.

dirtfarmer
I agree with justification but it is all the same through the cross of Christ....
Again I need to see a scripture reference...
Heres another to show you cant seperate justification and sanctification....
1 corinthians 6:11
You were sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God

You cant seperate faith and works!!!!!!
You cant make Jesus sqvior without making Him Lord

Kinda the same false doctrinal teaching trying to cut and paste and pick and choose what Jesus taught when HE said you have to forsake all to follow me.......
Luke 14:33

 

[JLB]

psssttt your getting annoying after i gave you my answer so NO i am not going to answer your legalistic question AGAIN

You never answered my question, and it’s not legalistic.

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?

Please explain how this question is legalistic?

Why would anyone who has been forgiven and cleansed of their sins and filled with the Holy Spirit, choose to live immorally rather that doing what is right in the eyes of God?




JLB

 

[JLB]

How come none of these verses do not say it is Christians that God will Judge, but it is yourself that does?

Maybe you believe that Paul is writing to unbelievers who are not saved?

Here I will clear that confusion up for you.

Here is what Paul said about that.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 1 Corinthians 5:12

• Paul preached the Gospel to the lost.
• Paul taught doctrine to the Church.

Hope this clears up your confusion.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Ezra,
I don't think I have perfect theology, but I don't see anywhere in the N.T. that absolutely guarantees my salvation UNLESS I abide in Christ till the day I die.

Why aren't the very words of your Lord and Savior enough?

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28). It could not have been stated any more clearly than that.

We know that eternal life is given when one believes, because of these verses:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Therefore, from the MOMENT one has believed, they shall never perish.

Yet, you've claimed that there isn't anything in the NT that "absolutely guarantees your salvation". Well, Jesus did just that.

This is a matter of FAITH. Do you really believe what Jesus said, or not?

 

[chessman]

Here is what Paul said about that.

So Paul was teaching hard-hearted, un-repentant, hypocritical and thus self-seeking Roman ‘christians’ because he wrote 1 Cor 5:12 in a different letter???

Paul preached the Gospel to the lost.

Amen. Glad to see you’ve changed your view and now recognize that un-repentant humans need to hear and believe/obey “the Gospel” and not seek their own self-righteousness in order to be saved.

The hard-hearted, hypocrisy and impatience within people who judge others for doing the unlawful things that they themselves do, shows them to be without His heart (even though their fore-skin is removed) and thus are without His repentance (that’s what unrepentant means), just as Paul says in v5 (you know part of the very same sentence that you have routinely misquoted in this thread).

Therefore you are without-excuse, O human— everyone judging. For in what you are judging the other person, you are condemning yourself; for you, the one judging, are practicing the same things !​

Romans 2:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:1&version=DLNT

But in-accordance-with your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing-up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous-judgment of God, ... [the snip that is v6-8 which you’ve been misquoting until now]​

Romans 2:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5&version=DLNT

Christians, by definition, do not have unrepentant hearts!

and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”​

Mark 1:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 1:15&version=LEB

Paul wrote chapter 2 of the letter to the Romans, to both Christians and non-Christians (humans, everyone). V5 of the sentence that is v5-8 shows that he’s talking about those without repentance at this point.

It is these humans who were (and still are) ‘judging’ others’ sins, sins they commit themselves. These are the humans not knowing that only God is Judge.

Some humans were disregarding His goodness and seeking (self-seeking that is) their own goodness, not knowing only God is Good.

Some humans were disregarding His patience and seeking (self-seeking) their own patience not knowing only God is patient.

Some humans were, in fact, blaspheming “the name of God”. Why??? Because of their un-repentance and unbelief in the Gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

God, “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Here is who the Bible says will receive eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

If eternal life is gained by one's deeds, then much of the NT cannot be true. Rom 2:6-8 is about continuance in doing good, which NO MAN can accomplish. Oh, except just One. That One is Jesus Christ. He actually did lie in continuance in doing good. Yet, He never needed to receive eternal life because He already IS eternal life (1 John 5:20).

If there EVER was a person who lived in continuance in doing good, that person would have NO NEED of the saving work of Jesus Christ.

Such a view is nothing more than blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every person in the human race NEEDS the saving work of Jesus Christ.

NO ONE will receive eternal life based on their deeds. Blasphemy is that that is.

Paul wrote Rom 2:6-8 to show mankind that no one can live up to that. Then Paul wrote Rom 3:9,10, 20, 23 to prove that no one can live in continuance of doing good.

So Rom 2:6-8 is a statement of what it would take to get eternal life apart from Christ.

So, how did you receive eternal life?

Your personal attacks against me will not change this fact.

I've not attacked you. I've refuted your opinions and notions that are in opposition to Scripture.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Did you receive eternal life based on your deeds?

 

[ezra]

You never answered my question, and it’s not legalistic.

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?

Please explain how this question is legalistic?

Why would anyone who has been forgiven and cleansed of their sins and filled with the Holy Spirit, choose to live immorally rather that doing what is right in the eyes of God?




JLB

gee jlb i give up why would you ? i sure dont up and choose to live immorally i dont choose to do evil have you ever got angry? have you ever done wrong when you should do right ? maybe you should go back a read all my post there you would see my answer

 

[ezra]

because you always make a point of having to obey God even if the belief is in osas

the true doctrine of eternal security is not a licence or excuse for sin ,from what i understand the original osas stated if a person reverted back and never repented. they was never saved to start with. any person who says that osa they can live how they want do what they want.. does not have the truth in them

 

[JLB]

gee jlb i give up why would you ? i sure dont up and choose to live immorally i dont choose to do evil have you ever got angry? have you ever done wrong when you should do right ? maybe you should go back a read all my post there you would see my answer

Exactly.

Yes I certainly have done wrong things as a Christian and have repented and cleansed myself of many things by the Spirit.

It’s called the process of sanctification.

It’s learning to obey the truth rather than obeying unrighteousness.

Those Christian’s who chose to obey unrighteousness and never embrace the process of sanctification will receive the wrath of God on that Day, rather than eternal life.

The reason Christians would rather just obey the unrighteous desires of their flesh rather than going through the process of sanctification is they have been taught they can live in sin and immortality and still be saved on the Day of Judgement.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Why aren't the very words of your Lord and Savior enough?

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28). It could not have been stated any more clearly than that.

We know that eternal life is given when one believes, because of these verses:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Therefore, from the MOMENT one has believed, they shall never perish.

Yet, you've claimed that there isn't anything in the NT that "absolutely guarantees your salvation". Well, Jesus did just that.

This is a matter of FAITH. Do you really believe what Jesus said, or not?

Jesus's words are enough, but the obviously need to be understood in the context of all He has said.
SIn God hates, not a little, but with His whole being. Sin destroys His kingdom and all who touch it,
Sin defiles the soul, body and spirit. There are not compromises.

If you read the old testament you will get the idea. Not Holy, destroyed.
Now Jesus did not suddenly change this, and how everything can be sinful because blanket Jesus
covers it all, so whatever you do has no consequences. That is not Gods nature.
Gods nature is to empower His people to walk in His ways. Paul declares this, walking by the Spirit.
Slaves to righteousness. It is all there, but maybe those who have failed to realise this say there
must be a different truth, so make one, so any promise is a promise without conditions or issues because
that fits their gospel, and the rest of scripture can just be ignored, "not for them". And the disdain
used is eye watering, and unfortunately no different than the people written about in Zephania. 1:18

This is the Day of GOD's Judgment--my wrath! I care about sin with fiery passion--A fire to burn up the corrupted world, a wildfire finish to the corrupting people.

 

[JLB]

If eternal life is gained by one's deeds, then much of the NT cannot be true. Rom 2:6-8 is about continuance in doing good, which NO MAN can accomplish. Oh, except just One. That One is Jesus Christ. He actually did lie in continuance in doing good. Yet, He never needed to receive eternal life because He already IS eternal life (1 John 5:20).

Jesus taught the same thing to His disciples as He taught Paul.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5;28-29


JLB

 

[JLB]

So Paul was teaching hard-hearted, un-repentant, hypocritical and thus self-seeking Roman ‘christians’ because he wrote 1 Cor 5:12 in a different letter???

I quoted Paul to you that He doesn’t write to or teach or Judge the world of unbelievers.

He does Judge and teach believers and writes to the Church.


The letter written to the Church at Rome was to believers, teaching the Church.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Amen. Glad to see you’ve changed your view and now recognize that un-repentant humans need to hear and believe/obey “the Gospel” and not seek their own self-righteousness in order to be saved.

The hard-hearted, hypocrisy and impatience within people who judge others for doing the unlawful things that they themselves do, shows them to be without His heart (even though their fore-skin is removed) and thus are without His repentance (that’s what unrepentant means), just as Paul says in v5 (you know part of the very same sentence that you have routinely misquoted in this thread).

Therefore you are without-excuse, O human— everyone judging. For in what you are judging the other person, you are condemning yourself; for you, the one judging, are practicing the same things !Romans 2:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:1&version=DLNT

But in-accordance-with your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing-up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous-judgment of God, ... [the snip that is v6-8 which you’ve been misquoting until now]Romans 2:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5&version=DLNT

Christians, by definition, do not have unrepentant hearts!

and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”Mark 1:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 1:15&version=LEB

Paul wrote chapter 2 of the letter to the Romans, to both Christians and non-Christians (humans, everyone). V5 of the sentence that is v5-8 shows that he’s talking about those without repentance at this point.

It is these humans who were (and still are) ‘judging’ others’ sins, sins they commit themselves. These are the humans not knowing that only God is Judge.

Some humans were disregarding His goodness and seeking (self-seeking that is) their own goodness, not knowing only God is Good.

Some humans were disregarding His patience and seeking (self-seeking) their own patience not knowing only God is patient.

Some humans were, in fact, blaspheming “the name of God”. Why??? Because of their un-repentance and unbelief in the Gospel.

There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that Paul was addressing Christians in his letter to the Romans.


First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8


JLB

 

[ezra]

Those Christian’s who chose to obey unrighteousness and never embrace the process of sanctification will receive the wrath of God on that Day, rather than eternal life.

to be honest your adding conditions sanctification is a w i p .but those who choose to disobey might not never been saved . a church sign i seen reads fishers of men we catch them. God cleans them .. so even though i have doubts about some. i remind my self 1. i am not the judge 2. i have just enough oil to take care of my self . taking care of me is a full time job. sometimes i have to work O.T . going to the potters wheel and asking the potter to repair me.

 

[JLB]

Why aren't the very words of your Lord and Savior enough?

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Please reconcile these words of Christ in with your theology.

And these.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[chessman]

I quoted Paul to you that He doesn’t write to or teach or Judge the world of unbelievers.

Here’s the verse from another letter, 1 Cor, which you tagged. It does NOT say Paul doesn’t write to the world of unbelievers:

For what is it to me to judge those outside? Should you not judge those inside?​

1 Corinthians 5:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 5:12&version=LEB

 

[ezra]

I see so your church sign someone means Romans 2:6-8 isn’t true?

That would explain a lot.

JLB

had you gave me the chance to edit my post which i did it posted before i finished.. you would SEE God cleans them . and you would also see more of what i posted instead of jumping in with childish remarks