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Justification by Faith

Cygnus said:
The sin in this case would be leaving Christ. Which as you said...is forgiven.
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I NEVER said the sin of leaving Christ would be forgiven. I am going to assume that this is a big misunderstanding on your part.

Cygnus said:
I take objection to you calling my Biblical belief a serious mental disorder. Choosing to sin is a by-product of our sin nature. Tell me, why do you still choose to sin?
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I did not call your Biblical belief a serious mental disorder. I called 'the' belief of "choices being made for you" a serious mental disorder. A choice, by the very definition of the word itself, implies that the person has the ability to choose something - not that someone makes them choose something.

Sometimes there are many choices, sometimes just two, but anytime there is a choice - it is one that you alone make, not someone making it for you. Demonic influence on a person says that "he" made me do it.

Gen 3:13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

The serpent did not make her eat it, she chose to do it.

Cygnus - Christ came to this earth, died on a cross to set you free from sin. Choosing to sin is no longer a by-product of your nature, it is apart of the old nature that you have been set free from. Christ freed you from slavery to that, meaning He - personally - made it to where you have the 100% choice of deciding what to do.

When I choose to sin it is because I want to. 100%. It is because I desire something that I know I do not need, or want, or should have. I never sin because someone made me, or because I did not have a choice but to sin. Those days are long over with, before Christ I sinned because I was a slave to it - now I am free and I do not have to choose it.
 
Nathan said:
I NEVER said the sin of leaving Christ would be forgiven. I am going to assume that this is a big misunderstanding on your part.


I did not call your Biblical belief a serious mental disorder. I called 'the' belief of "choices being made for you" a serious mental disorder. A choice, by the very definition of the word itself, implies that the person has the ability to choose something - not that someone makes them choose something.

Sometimes there are many choices, sometimes just two, but anytime there is a choice - it is one that you alone make, not someone making it for you. Demonic influence on a person says that "he" made me do it.

Gen 3:13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

The serpent did not make her eat it, she chose to do it.

Cygnus - Christ came to this earth, died on a cross to set you free from sin. Choosing to sin is no longer a by-product of your nature, it is apart of the old nature that you have been set free from. Christ freed you from slavery to that, meaning He - personally - made it to where you have the 100% choice of deciding what to do.

When I choose to sin it is because I want to. 100%. It is because I desire something that I know I do not need, or want, or should have. I never sin because someone made me, or because I did not have a choice but to sin. Those days are long over with, before Christ I sinned because I was a slave to it - now I am free and I do not have to choose it.
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That's fine....but it can't cause you to use your salvation.
 
Cygnus said:
That's fine....but it can't cause you to use your salvation.
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Sin? Sin most certainly can. Sin is what separated the Son of God from His Father.

Sin is what separated Adam and Eve from God and His Garden.

Sin separates us from God. Only forgiveness found in Christ reconciles us to God. If we are not in Christ because we choose to deny Him, and follow the way of sin, then we are no longer justified by Christ in the sight of God. You cannot have that which you deny.
 
Cygnus said:
Your post helps to demonstrate my post. Here a christian started to question their faith. Nathan never explained why a christian would do this...so, NO, Nathan never answered my question.
The consequence is that she no longer believes. There were several factors. She took several instances from life's happenstance and simply applied them to her belief...and decided christianity was bogus. As a saved christian she was deceived from believing in the truth. Nathan and you apparently believe that this deception can remove you from Christ hands.
Can this deception remove you from fellowship or rewards? Certainly, but it can't forcefully remove you from Jesus hands.
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How does a person come to be in Christ?
By faith.

If people can be in Christ without faith, then why the Gospel, because the whole world is in Christ without faith.

But we know that is just st not true.

The condition remains:

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.


JLB
 
Cygnus said:
That's fine....but it can't cause you to use your salvation.
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We have salvation through faith.

How can someone have salvation without faith?

Please share with us the scripture that teaches we have salvation without faith.


JLB
 
Cygnus said:
Your post helps to demonstrate my post. Here a christian started to question their faith. Nathan never explained why a christian would do this...so, NO, Nathan never answered my question.
The consequence is that she no longer believes. There were several factors. She took several instances from life's happenstance and simply applied them to her belief...and decided christianity was bogus. As a saved christian she was deceived from believing in the truth. Nathan and you apparently believe that this deception can remove you from Christ hands.
Can this deception remove you from fellowship or rewards? Certainly, but it can't forcefully remove you from Jesus hands.
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Do not put words in my mouth unless I have said them. It taints your words to be untrustworthy, and gives the impression that you've done this with me, you likely have done this with others as well.

Therefore take this correction of what I have said. You had asked a question on why people would turn away from christianity. I gave you an answer based on observation and experience. I did not say anything about whether this holds to our salvation or not.

My view though it might be close to other people's view because I counter some points; do not make the asumption that if someone else says it then so do I. If you do this this will help me out a lot to consider what you say in general instead of frustrated over what you've assumed but that I did not say.
 
Not_Now.Soon said:
Do not put words in my mouth unless I have said them. It taints your words to be untrustworthy, and gives the impression that you've done this with me, you likely have done this with others as well.
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I was simply adding to the argument. Now, NOTICE I did use the word apparently. I chose it for a reason. The reason being as I read you post I perceive you this way.
Apparently..there I used it again, you believe in OSAS. Am I incorrect?
 
Cygnus said:
I was simply adding to the argument. Now, NOTICE I did use the word apparently. I chose it for a reason. The reason being as I read you post I perceive you this way.
Apparently..there I used it again, you believe in OSAS. Am I incorrect?
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I hope in OSAS. I see the need and the scripture to gollow Jesus and to turn from our sins. For a variarity of reasons. And I observe others leabing the faith.

On a practicle application all I can say is salvation is not ours it's God's. Given to whomever He will. Some he might give it to we won't recoginize, and others that we think are saved might note really be. So it's not up to us or our understanding.

In other words I see merits in both perspectives when they use scripture to back their reasoning, and I agree with the frustration in both sides when their ate misrepresented, or their view is warped in order to better argue against. I see this on both sides abd it saddens me.
 
Nathan said:
What does this even mean?
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Well, simply this....reading the post of the OSNAS people (which some may not agree with you Nathan)..it sounds like once we get saved we have to do enough of this or that to remain saved. Not letting our eyes fall away from Jesus...keeping "in" Jesus and so on.

So, seeing how we were once guilty..then set free thru Christ...we seem to be on parole...we have to play the christian game ...then hope we don't die when not looking at Jesus.

Can you sum it up better?
 
Cygnus said:
Well, simply this....reading the post of the OSNAS people (which some may not agree with you Nathan)..it sounds like once we get saved we have to do enough of this or that to remain saved. Not letting our eyes fall away from Jesus...keeping "in" Jesus and so on.

So, seeing how we were once guilty..then set free thru Christ...we seem to be on parole...we have to play the christian game ...then hope we don't die when not looking at Jesus.

Can you sum it up better?
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I can sum up what I know, but I cannot sum up what others believe.

We do nothing to 'remain' saved. We did not earn righteousness, and we cannot keep it by earning it.

We were once guilty and enslaved to sin. Christ set us free. If after being set free, we return to slavery of sin, we have denied Christ and Him setting us free. Why would a person who does not want to be in Christ here and now, want to be in Him for eternity?

I think, and I may be wrong, but the issue with most is they want the result of being declared innocent - but not the life of innocence. God does not give one without the other. He then gives us the choice of which one we want.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Based on that, we are not on "parole" - but we are in servitude. Some do not like this fact, and because of it, they will leave the faith. Some do not want it to begin with, and because of it, they will never believe in Christ for their justification.

1Co 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
 
Nathan said:
We were once guilty and enslaved to sin. Christ set us free. If after being set free, we return to slavery of sin, we have denied Christ and Him setting us free. Why would a person who does not want to be in Christ here and now, want to be in Him for eternity?
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DECEPTION.
 
Cygnus said:
For us who are saved....and can lose our salvation, are we on parole?
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Parole might not be a bad comparison, but I rather like the way it's described in the bible. Consider Paul's words in Romans 11:17-22. As christians, expecially christians without Jewish heritiage, we are like wild branches grafted onto the true vine that is Jesus. Paul warns us that if God broke off the branches in Isreal that were part of the promise, because of their unbelief, then we should fear God and be good, least He do the sane with us and break us off again as well.

If you feel more comfortable to reword my words and try to make them seem foolish, then so be it. I have tried to tell you not to do so. And I am saying the same thing again. But for your rewording, if I can, I will give you an answer based on the bible. In hopes that you will not reword the words in scriptute, but that them more seriously them you take anyone else here.
 
Nathan said:
Listen, you are free to say what you want, but it's hard to take you serious when all you do is accuse people of things.

If you really believe it is deceptive, then explain why you think it.
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Nathan....just what did I say was deception?
 
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