Justification by Faith

[Nathan]

Does Jesus take back His righteousness?

Jesus cannot take back His righteousness - He is righteousness. How can He take back Himself?

Where does the bible teach that?

Is this in response to my statement you quoted, or your statement above?

I assume it was your statement above, which, in that case, the Bible does not teach that Jesus takes back His righteousness. He cannot take back what He is.

His righteousness, imputed onto us, depends on faith. Without faith there is no righteousness.

I have a light bulb in my house. In order for it to provide light I must have power. I do not make the power, I receive it from the power company. If I did not receive it, the light bulb would not provide light.

 

[Cygnus]

Interesting. Explain more.

I sin, but that does not mean I deny Christ. I have denied Christ, but that does not mean I have denied Him because I did not believe in Him.

There is a difference between sin(missing the mark when aiming at the mark), and sin(missing the mark because you are not aiming at the mark).

There have been times in my life where I have stopped believing in Christ...sometimes I have had serious doubt. You would have said at those moments I lost my salvation. Then I examined the reason for disbelief or doubt....and can see the deception. Fortunatly deception can't snatch me from Jesus' hands....and never lost my salvation like your religion teaches.

 

[Nathan]

Your religion claim a person can lose their salvation...but when asked what is required to cause such a loss and why would a person turn to disbelief.....you shut up like a clam.

Your religion tells us to remain in salvation...it is what we do or believe.

See, your first statement is correct. Your second statement is another false accusation. Do you see how you falsely accuse me, or do you think you are doing good?

I have stated already, that a person cannot have salvation if they are not in Christ. Salvation does not exist apart from Christ. So if a person leaves Christ they leave salvation. The "requirement" to cause such a loss is to leave Christ. Why a person does that is because they want sin rather than Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus cannot take back His righteousness - He is righteousness. How can He take back Himself?


Is this in response to my statement you quoted, or your statement above?

I assume it was your statement above, which, in that case, the Bible does not teach that Jesus takes back His righteousness. He cannot take back what He is.

His righteousness, imputed onto us, depends on faith. Without faith there is no righteousness.

I have a light bulb in my house. In order for it to provide light I must have power. I do not make the power, I receive it from the power company. If I did not receive it, the light bulb would not provide light.

A non-believer will not receive the righteousess of Christ unless they are born again.....A true believer receives the righteousness of Christ....You're religion tells us if for some reason a true believer stop believing...Jesus takes His righteousness away from them. At that time were all the individuals sins that were imputed to Christ..re-imputed back to the individual? What is your religions opinion on that?

 

[Nathan]

I am going to break up your post into three parts because you need to see how you keep falsely accusing me.

There have been times in my life where I have stopped believing in Christ...sometimes I have had serious doubt.

We all have. While it is not a good thing, it does not mean you have fallen away or denied the faith.

You would have said at those moments I lost my salvation.

Here - you need to see the evil this is. I would not have said this. You are trying to put words into my mouth that come from the enemy. This is a blatant false accusation.

Then I examined the reason for disbelief or doubt....and can see the deception. Fortunatly deception can't snatch me from Jesus' hands....and never lost my salvation like your religion teaches.

Your correct. Nothing can snatch us from Christ. You are free to choose Him, or to deny Him. No one will force you otherwise. If you deny Him, He will deny you. You cannot forsake Christ and retain your righteousness.

 

[Cygnus]

See, your first statement is correct. Your second statement is another false accusation. Do you see how you falsely accuse me, or do you think you are doing good?

I have stated already, that a person cannot have salvation if they are not in Christ. Salvation does not exist apart from Christ. So if a person leaves Christ they leave salvation. The "requirement" to cause such a loss is to leave Christ. Why a person does that is because they want sin rather than Christ.

You're still scratching the surface Nathan. Considering you can't support your argument as you present your religion I see why you need to say on the surface and refuse to answer the question.

Why would a person who is a believer want sin more than Jesus? Want it so much they lose their salvation?

 

[Cygnus]

Your correct. Nothing can snatch us from Christ. You are free to choose Him, or to deny Him. No one will force you otherwise. If you deny Him, He will deny you. You cannot forsake Christ and retain your righteousness.

If you deny Christ to the point your religion says He'll deny you...then you were snatched from Christ hands.

Perhaps you need to sit down and explain exactly what your religion means when it says "denies Christ". Then explain how and why a person can get there.....how happenstance....doesn't rob you of your salvation.

 

[Nathan]

A non-believer will not receive the righteousess of Christ unless they are born again.....A true believer receives the righteousness of Christ....You're religion tells us if for some reason a true believer stop believing...Jesus takes His righteousness away from them. At that time were all the individuals sins that were imputed to Christ..re-imputed back to the individual? What is your religions opinion on that?

Do you believe that righteousness is a result of our belief? Does that mean we earn it(obtain it) by something we do, like believe?

Again, you are making a false statement about what I believe. I hope that you one day see this for what it is. I do not hold it against you.

I do not think that if a person "stop believing" Jesus takes His righteousness away from them.

Righteousness is in Christ alone. It is only "imputed" on us who are in Christ. Therefore, its not something that is handed over like a ticket or a certificate - it is a connection of life. Righteousness is inseparable from Christ, therefore if any man is not in Christ he does not have righteousness. Jesus cannot take a 'chunk' of it and give it to you.

When we sin Christ is our propitiation. We either believe He is our forgiveness, or we deny that He is. If we continue in sin, and then deny Christs forgiveness, there is no other way to have a right standing before God the Father.

 

[Nathan]

You're still scratching the surface Nathan. Considering you can't support your argument as you present your religion I see why you need to say on the surface and refuse to answer the question.

Why would a person who is a believer want sin more than Jesus? Want it so much they lose their salvation?

So now we are going past false accusations and traversing into insults? I forgive you Cygnus. I really do. I am actually feeling compassion for you.

If it is surface to you, then do you know what is underneath? I cannot, absolutely impossible, to know why a man in his heart would want sin more than Jesus. Why did Adam and Eve want to sin? Why did Judas want to betray Christ? Why did Peter want to deny Christ?

Its not a matter of knowing why someone else does what they do. We should only deal with ourselves. Its a matter of abiding in Christ so that sin will not lead us away from Him. Why test the boundaries? Why not just stay in Christ?

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe that righteousness is a result of our belief? Does that mean we earn it(obtain it) by something we do, like believe?

Actually I think righteousness and regeneration are given to us as we believe. It allows us to believe. Do we earn it? Nope. It's all jesus.

Again, you are making a false statement about what I believe. I hope that you one day see this for what it is. I do not hold it against you.

I'm just stating what you post in different words. On the other hand, if you actually spelled out what you believe instead of being cryptic and dancing around the questions.....it would help us understand your religion.

I do not think that if a person "stop believing" Jesus takes His righteousness away from them.

Neither do I..considering you can't lose your salvation.

Righteousness is in Christ alone. It is only "imputed" on us who are in Christ. Therefore, its not something that is handed over like a ticket or a certificate - it is a connection of life. Righteousness is inseparable from Christ, therefore if any man is not in Christ he does not have righteousness. Jesus cannot take a 'chunk' of it and give it to you.

Once you become "in Christ" you can't become not, in Christ.

When we sin Christ is our propitiation. We either believe He is our forgiveness, or we deny that He is. If we continue in sin, and then deny Christs forgiveness, there is no other way to have a right standing before God the Father.

I wish you would make up your mind...now you have a person who is a believer....or once was a believer... denying Christ forgiveness.
Does Christ now take back His righteousness? Does Christ re-impute your sins back to you?

 

[Cygnus]

So now we are going past false accusations and traversing into insults? I forgive you Cygnus. I really do. I am actually feeling compassion for you.

If it is surface to you, then do you know what is underneath? I cannot, absolutely impossible, to know why a man in his heart would want sin more than Jesus. Why did Adam and Eve want to sin? Why did Judas want to betray Christ? Why did Peter want to deny Christ?

Its not a matter of knowing why someone else does what they do. We should only deal with ourselves. Its a matter of abiding in Christ so that sin will not lead us away from Him. Why test the boundaries? Why not just stay in Christ?

The answer to that question is happenstance. The cards life dealt you..or didn't deal you. Happenstance is what you filter your decisions through. Happenstance is what according to your religion keeps a person saved or not.

 

[Nathan]

If you deny Christ to the point your religion says He'll deny you...then you were snatched from Christ hands.

Perhaps you need to sit down and explain exactly what your religion means when it says "denies Christ". Then explain how and why a person can get there.....how happenstance....doesn't rob you of your salvation.

No, we cannot be snatched from Christs hands. It is impossible and we should find comfort and security in that. I know I do.

Denying Christ is a choice one makes. No one forces you to do it. No one forces anyone to sin.

Jas 1:14-15
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Denying Christ is when you deny Him as the only righteousness you have before God. In order to accept His righteousness, you have to deny all other forms.

So, if you rely on something you have done, or will do, to put you in right standing before God - you have denied Christ.

There will be many who stand before God who claim that they have done this or that - and what they have done is why they should be given life eternal. Many will stand before Him and claim a prayer they said, a good deed they did, a life they lived, a thought they thought, anything and everything you can imagine - those people will be claiming those things as why they should be righteous before God.

Only those who believe in what God has done for them, through the sacrifice of His Son, will stand in His righteousness.

 

[Cygnus]

Why test the boundaries? Why not just stay in Christ?

I agree...why would you want to step out of fellowship?

 

[Cygnus]

No, we cannot be snatched from Christs hands. It is impossible and we should find comfort and security in that. I know I do.

Denying Christ is a choice one makes. No one forces you to do it. No one forces anyone to sin.

Jas 1:14-15
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Denying Christ is when you deny Him as the only righteousness you have before God. In order to accept His righteousness, you have to deny all other forms.

So, if you rely on something you have done, or will do, to put you in right standing before God - you have denied Christ.

There will be many who stand before God who claim that they have done this or that - and what they have done is why they should be given life eternal. Many will stand before Him and claim a prayer they said, a good deed they did, a life they lived, a thought they thought, anything and everything you can imagine - those people will be claiming those things as why they should be righteous before God.

Only those who believe in what God has done for them, through the sacrifice of His Son, will stand in His righteousness.

You appear to be switching between a person who is not saved.....and a person who is saved. When it comes to the un-saved, I pretty much agree with you. When it comes to the saved....you think the world, Satan or happenstance can take away your salvation. This point I disagree with your religion.

 

[Nathan]

You appear to be switching between a person who is not saved.....and a person who is saved. When it comes to the un-saved, I pretty much agree with you. When it comes to the saved....you think the world, Satan or happenstance can take away your salvation. This point I disagree with your religion.

I forgive you again. I do not believe anything can take away our salvation. You lied about me.

Do you believe it is a choice to sin? For instance, are you typing what you do because someone is making you do it, because its happenstance, or because you are choosing to?

 

[Cygnus]

I forgive you again. I do not believe anything can take away our salvation. You lied about me.

Good for you. You just indicated that once a person is saved they can't become un-saved.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe it is a choice to sin? For instance, are you typing what you do because someone is making you do it, because its happenstance, or because you are choosing to?

It's a choice. The question is what input do you use to make a choice? That's where the happenstance comes in and effects our decisions.

 

[Nathan]

Good for you. You just indicated that once a person is saved they can't become un-saved.

Thank You. While what you believe is not a correct statement about me, it is truthful because you are not accusing me but rather putting forth what you believe.

I actually do not believe in the term "un-saved". Being saved is a condition a person is in. I am being saved at this moment.

Think of it this way. You have to breath in order to live. That does not mean you take a breath and you live forever. No, you must continue to breath in order to live.

We are continually being saved(sanctification) by Jesus. It is this very thing, that if a person denies, means they cannot receive eternal life. You cannot choose to be saved for a moment in time, then choose to do what you want the rest of the time.

It's a choice. The question is what input do you use to make a choice? That's where the happenstance comes in and effects our decisions.

Exactly, what input we do use effects everything.

Rom 2:7-8
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Rom 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We have a choice. We cannot say "the devil made me do it". It is our choice to believe that God saves us, and by believing that we live in that. Or we can choose to deny that God saves us, and do our own thing and suffer the consequences of our actions.

In the end, we cannot stand before God and say that it was "happenstance" that I sinned and denied you. Our actions are a result of our choices.

You cannot deny Christ and then expect to receive His righteousness because of something you did at one moment in time.

 

[Cygnus]

Thank You. While what you believe is not a correct statement about me, it is truthful because you are not accusing me but rather putting forth what you believe.

I actually do not believe in the term "un-saved". Being saved is a condition a person is in. I am being saved at this moment.

Think of it this way. You have to breath in order to live. That does not mean you take a breath and you live forever. No, you must continue to breath in order to live.

We are continually being saved(sanctification) by Jesus. It is this very thing, that if a person denies, means they cannot receive eternal life. You cannot choose to be saved for a moment in time, then choose to do what you want the rest of the time.



Exactly, what input we do use effects everything.

Rom 2:7-8
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Rom 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We have a choice. We cannot say "the devil made me do it". It is our choice to believe that God saves us, and by believing that we live in that. Or we can choose to deny that God saves us, and do our own thing and suffer the consequences of our actions.

In the end, we cannot stand before God and say that it was "happenstance" that I sinned and denied you. Our actions are a result of our choices.

You cannot deny Christ and then expect to receive His righteousness because of something you did at one moment in time.

Happenstance controls all of your decisions. Before you do something...you weigh the options. That choice can be based upon life experience...happenstance.

 

[Nathan]

Happenstance controls all of your decisions. Before you do something...you weigh the options. That choice can be based upon life experience...happenstance.

I've never heard it put that way before. I wouldn't agree on the definition though. Some choices are not based on life experience.