Justification by Faith

[Cygnus]

I've never heard it put that way before. I wouldn't agree on the definition though. Some choices are not based on life experience.

OK. A very small minority.

 

[JLB]

There have been times in my life where I have stopped believing in Christ...sometimes I have had serious doubt. You would have said at those moments I lost my salvation. Then I examined the reason for disbelief or doubt....and can see the deception. Fortunatly deception can't snatch me from Jesus' hands....and never lost my salvation like your religion teaches.

Being weak in faith and doubting is a far cry from departing from Christ by denying Him, in which you choose to serve another God, such as Allah.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13

If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


JLB

 

[Mike]

with your religion

When you make this reference over and over, it carries with it the connotation that the person you are addressing is trapped in legalism. (you have faith, they have rules) Whether intentional or not, I'll kindly ask you to remove this from your vernacular. You create tension with these words where it is not necessary.

 

[Cygnus]

Being weak in faith and doubting is a far cry from departing from Christ by denying Him, in which you choose to serve another God, such as Allah.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13

If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


JLB

True, if you deny Christ you can't consider yourself as chosen to be saved. Maybe at a later date God will choose to renew your heart and mind...but at this moment that person stands to be condemned in their denial.

 

[JLB]

True, if you deny Christ you can't consider yourself as chosen to be saved. Maybe at a later date God will choose to renew your heart and mind...but at this moment that person stands to be condemned in their denial.

Thanks for sharing your opinion here with us.

Please post the scripture for your belief.


Here's mine:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whosoever believes.

That says anyone who believes, not just some who have been chosen to believe.

There is no scripture, that says God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

When you make this reference over and over, it carries with it the connotation that the person you are addressing is trapped in legalism. (you have faith, they have rules) Whether intentional or not, I'll kindly ask you to remove this from your vernacular. You create tension with these words where it is not necessary.

There is a form of legalism present. They might not have to ask the elders if they can have vacation next week...but they will find themselves doing things to make sure they stay saved. What happens is they begin "doing things for God" to ensure their salvation rather than doing things for Gods glory. This means of salvation adds a little bit to the work of the cross. Now maybe your faith is somewhat works based Mike, I don't know, I don't remember ever responding to you.....and you feel the need to address the issue, or maybe someone has complained squeaky wheel style....that I also don't know....BUT, you being a moderator, who can change a 1 to a 0....I suppose I'm being forced to comply. It appears your forcing me to comply with a form of forum legalism.

 

[Nathan]

True, if you deny Christ you can't consider yourself as chosen to be saved. Maybe at a later date God will choose to renew your heart and mind...but at this moment that person stands to be condemned in their denial.

It is dangerous to ever think that there will be a 'later date'. This is never guaranteed to anyone. There are multiple examples in the Bible where someone banked on this idea - not least of which is Pharaoh.

 

[Cygnus]

Thanks for sharing you opinion here with us.

Please post the scripture for your belief.


Here's mine:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whosoever believes.

That says anyone who believes, not just some who have been chose to believe.

There is no scripture, that says God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation.


JLB

You can't come to Christ unless God has granted you that ability. Your post seem to deny that...am I understanding you correctly?

Just for the record, you said: "There is no scripture, that says God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation."

Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[Cygnus]

It is dangerous to ever think that there will be a 'later date'. This is never guaranteed to anyone. There are multiple examples in the Bible where someone banked on this idea - not least of which is Pharaoh.

At one time that later date arrived for you....Correct? If man could make the decision to come to Christ on their own....happenstance....would then be the means of salvation. In your case, Christ plus happenstance.

 

[Nathan]

At one time that later date arrived for you....Correct? If man could make the decision to come to Christ on their own....happenstance....would then be the means of salvation. In your case, Christ plus happenstance.

Your post really confuses me.

It is not happenstance that I believed the Gospel. God gives ALL men ample time to believe. When a man chooses not to believe he hardens his heart. When God gives light(the ability of knowing of truth) to a person concerning His Son, and the person rejects that, then there might not be another time. When, after knowing the truth and becoming immersed into Christ, someone rejects Christ - there is not another time.

Now is the day of salvation - once death comes it is final.

 

[Cygnus]

Your post really confuses me.

It is not happenstance that I believed the Gospel. God gives ALL men ample time to believe. When a man chooses not to believe he hardens his heart. When God gives light(the ability of knowing of truth) to a person concerning His Son, and the person rejects that, then there might not be another time. When, after knowing the truth and becoming immersed into Christ, someone rejects Christ - there is not another time.

Now is the day of salvation - once death comes it is final.

I don't know f I can help you become un-confused.

I asked you several times why a person would choose a believer to deny Christ. What their thought process is. What their decision was based upon....and you have never given me an answer. I even tried to help you out, but you refused to understand.

Do you think you'll ever answer the question or should I forget I even asked?

 

[Nathan]

I don't know f I can help you become un-confused.

I asked you several times why a person would choose a believer to deny Christ. What their thought process is. What their decision was based upon....and you have never given me an answer. I even tried to help you out, but you refused to understand.

Do you think you'll ever answer the question or should I forget I even asked?

I have answered your question, many times over. If you do not like the answer then I am sorry.

A person chooses to deny Christ when they choose to want something that He is opposite to. A person cannot choose to have a Savior, who saves them from slavery to sin, then choose to be a slave to sin. Sin is what Christ set us free from - not just the result of sin, but sin itself.

Sin is deceitful and those who do not hold on to the truth will find themselves following after sin rather than Christ. Sin is a path that goes one direction, Christ is a path that goes the opposite way. If you choose to turn and follow the path of sin, you must deny the path of Christ.

You cannot walk both paths at the same time. If I am driving west to California and I decide I would rather go to New York, I can no longer say I am going to California if I turn and go the opposite direction.

 

[Cygnus]

I have answered your question, many times over. If you do not like the answer then I am sorry.

A person chooses to deny Christ when they choose to want something that He is opposite to. A person cannot choose to have a Savior, who saves them from slavery to sin, then choose to be a slave to sin. Sin is what Christ set us free from - not just the result of sin, but sin itself.

Sin is deceitful and those who do not hold on to the truth will find themselves following after sin rather than Christ. Sin is a path that goes one direction, Christ is a path that goes the opposite way. If you choose to turn and follow the path of sin, you must deny the path of Christ.

You cannot walk both paths at the same time. If I am driving west to California and I decide I would rather go to New York, I can no longer say I am going to California if I turn and go the opposite direction.

Nathan, all you need to do is commit just one sin....and your post has been refuted. AND, as we now we commit more than just one sin each day.
This is why if your salvation can be lost...it has already been lost.

As for me and bible believing christians our future sins have already been forgiven.

Now as to you answering the question...you never went below the surface...and I understand why. If you actually looked at the thought process that would make a person change their mind about Christ...you would see they make that decision based upon life experience. (happenstance)

 

[JLB]

Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Nothing in these verses that says God chooses some for eternal damnation, while choosing others for eternal life.


Here are those who will have eternal life: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The context is about those disciples, who would follow Him, during His time on earth.

This shows that those who believes, showed that they believed, by continuing to follow Him.

They came to Him, and followed Him, then some no longer followed Him, when they heard the "hard saying".


The twelve continued to follow Him, showing that they continued to believe, He was the Son of God.

Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” vs. 69

Judas along with the other 11, came to Him, because they were given to Him by the Father, and they continued to believe when all the other disciples left Him, because of the hard saying.

• Judas ended up betraying Him, and lost his inheritance, his right to inherit eternal life, along with the twelve, as he was destined to rule and reign with Christ forever.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:28-29

• Judas Iscariot is the text book example of one of His sheep, that became lost.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:60-71



JLB

 

[JLB]

As for me and bible believing christians our future sins have already been forgiven.

Please post the scripture that teaches us all our future sins are forgiven.



JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I don't know f I can help you become un-confused.

I asked you several times why a person would choose a believer to deny Christ. What their thought process is. What their decision was based upon....and you have never given me an answer. I even tried to help you out, but you refused to understand.

Do you think you'll ever answer the question or should I forget I even asked?

Nathan's already replied, but I have an answer as well. A coworker of mine used to be a Christian. She grew up in the Christian Faith and says she accepted it as true. Then she started to question it a few years ago, and no longer believes in Christianity. From what she's told me there seems to be several factors in her decision, but regardless where she is now is without a faith and without a desire to pick a faith, but with some beliefs that she believes to be true because they make sense to her. (Not Christian or of any religion, just assorted beliefs.)

The factors that caused this I could guess on and be right or wrong about, but that won't change that this is where she is right now.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, all you need to do is commit just one sin....and your post has been refuted. AND, as we now we commit more than just one sin each day.
This is why if your salvation can be lost...it has already been lost.

As for me and bible believing christians our future sins have already been forgiven.

Now as to you answering the question...you never went below the surface...and I understand why. If you actually looked at the thought process that would make a person change their mind about Christ...you would see they make that decision based upon life experience. (happenstance)

I am not sure how committing one sin refutes what I posted? Our sins are forgiven in Christ alone, not outside of Him. If a man is in Christ, his sin is forgiven. If a man is not in Christ, his sin is not forgiven. I honestly do not see where you think a sin refutes my post.

I was below the surface, if you choose not to see it that is your choice - no one made you not see, and it was not happenstance you did not see - your choosing to not see.

Does someone make you sin? If so, then you would say you have no guilt because it was not your choice. You do not go to jail if someone comes in and robs a bank your in, but if you rob the bank its your choice - your the one who chose it - it did not just 'happen' because you were there.

People make decisions based on what they want to do, not what anything or anyone makes them do. The idea of your choices being made for you is a very serious mental disorder - its demonic influence on a person. If God tells us to choose, then He is telling us we have the choice.

 

[Cygnus]

Nathan's already replied, but I have an answer as well. A coworker of mine used to be a Christian. She grew up in the Christian Faith and says she accepted it as true. Then she started to question it a few years ago, and no longer believes in Christianity. From what she's told me there seems to be several factors in her decision, but regardless where she is now is without a faith and without a desire to pick a faith, but with some beliefs that she believes to be true because they make sense to her. (Not Christian or of any religion, just assorted beliefs.)

The factors that caused this I could guess on and be right or wrong about, but that won't change that this is where she is right now.

Your post helps to demonstrate my post. Here a christian started to question their faith. Nathan never explained why a christian would do this...so, NO, Nathan never answered my question.
The consequence is that she no longer believes. There were several factors. She took several instances from life's happenstance and simply applied them to her belief...and decided christianity was bogus. As a saved christian she was deceived from believing in the truth. Nathan and you apparently believe that this deception can remove you from Christ hands.
Can this deception remove you from fellowship or rewards? Certainly, but it can't forcefully remove you from Jesus hands.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan's already replied, but I have an answer as well. A coworker of mine used to be a Christian. She grew up in the Christian Faith and says she accepted it as true. Then she started to question it a few years ago, and no longer believes in Christianity. From what she's told me there seems to be several factors in her decision, but regardless where she is now is without a faith and without a desire to pick a faith, but with some beliefs that she believes to be true because they make sense to her. (Not Christian or of any religion, just assorted beliefs.)

The factors that caused this I could guess on and be right or wrong about, but that won't change that this is where she is right now.

Its sad to hear stories like this. When I do, I hold out hope that what the person believed the "faith" was is not what it actually is.

I know that sometimes God will pull people away from something that looks true in order to show them that it is false. I know He did this in my life.

 

[Cygnus]

I am not sure how committing one sin refutes what I posted? Our sins are forgiven in Christ alone, not outside of Him. If a man is in Christ, his sin is forgiven. If a man is not in Christ, his sin is not forgiven. I honestly do not see where you think a sin refutes my post.

The sin in this case would be leaving Christ. Which as you said...is forgiven.

Does someone make you sin? If so, then you would say you have no guilt because it was not your choice. You do not go to jail if someone comes in and robs a bank your in, but if you rob the bank its your choice - your the one who chose it - it did not just 'happen' because you were there.

There is more than one way to look at tat then your single instance. Some people believe a lie that it is their right to rob the bank. They honestly think there is nothing wrong with robbing a bank.....rob from the rich give to the poor....YET, if caught will still be tried and found guilty.
Did someone make them sin? Not directly. Did their lie allow them to make the sinful decision? Yes.

People make decisions based on what they want to do, not what anything or anyone makes them do. The idea of your choices being made for you is a very serious mental disorder - its demonic influence on a person. If God tells us to choose, then He is telling us we have the choice.

I take objection to you calling my Biblical belief a serious mental disorder. Choosing to sin is a by-product of our sin nature. Tell me, why do you still choose to sin?