Justification by Faith

[Nathan]

Depends on which theologian you ask. Doesn't matter, if endurance is based on the work of God, it is, then eternal security is a slam dunk. Eternal security is guaranteed. Because it's a work of God. You've practically said this yourself. Unless now your going to say that endurance is based in His work but...........

If a but follows, then we're back to a work of our own effort.

And BTW, persevere and endure are listed as synonymous by dictionary.com.
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/persevere

They are synonymous in human intellect. If you look at the definition of them, then you see the difference. Perseverance is working hard, endurance is letting hard work in you.

Humans often confuse the two, even though we have distinct definitions of them, because the enemy is constantly trying to put the focus on us instead of Christ.

Paul referenced this very thing -
Galatians 3:3 (ESV)
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Eternal security is guaranteed in Christ. There is no 'but' in Christ. When we endure Him working in us and through us, then we are abiding in Him - and there is security in that.

If we turn from Him because we do not like the work He is doing in us, then there is no security in that. We are taking control instead of letting Him have control.

We are able to endure because He gives us the ability. When we turn from that we take back possession of our lives. It's really quite simple.

Eternal security that is espoused on this site is most often directed at something we have done - and our ability to hold onto that event when we did whatever it is. For some it was a time they said a prayer, for some a baptism, for some a supernatural experience, the list goes on and on. They all have one thing in common - a moment in time when they did something.

The entire NT is directed not at what has happened to us at one point in time, but what happens in us on a continual - every day - basis. When people flip that around to something they did - then their trust is in their own work and they are correct for not having any confidence in their eternal security.

I can honestly stand and say before anyone that I am 100% eternally secure in Christ. I have absolute no doubt of my eternal state when I am abiding in Him. The only times I 'doubt' are when I start to want to do things my way.

 

[Cygnus]

Eternal security is guaranteed in Christ. There is no 'but' in Christ. When we endure Him working in us and through us, then we are abiding in Him - and there is security in that.

If we turn from Him because we do not like the work He is doing in us, then there is no security in that. We are taking control instead of letting Him have control.

Here lies the reason why no ones saved under this theology....no one can endure. We all fail. We all take control. Yeah, somedays we're pretty good at following....but, we don't follow well enough to achieve a "guarantee" in Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

I can honestly stand and say before anyone that I am 100% eternally secure in Christ. I have absolute no doubt of my eternal state when I am abiding in Him. The only times I 'doubt' are when I start to want to do things my way.

....what happens if you die on the day you're no abiding in Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Here lies the reason why no ones saved under this theology....no one can endure. We all fail. We all take control. Yeah, somedays we're pretty good at following....but, we don't follow well enough to achieve a "guarantee" in Christ.

That's a flat out lie. Either you are purposefully lying, or you honestly do not know what endurance is.

Endurance is possible and it's told that we should. To make people think they cannot is working against what Christ said and the Apostles taught.

Matthew 10:22 (ESV)
and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 13:21 (ESV)
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Matthew 24:13 (ESV)
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13 (ESV)
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John 6:27 (ESV)
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The elect exiles were simply saved people living as strangers in a different land....living as foreigners...To those who reside as aliens...temporary residents...and so on.

hello Cygnus, dirtfarmer here

Even though we agree on many doctrine, I have to disagree that "the exiles were simple saved people living as strangers in a different land. The exiles were Jews that were God's earthly people that were scattered by the conquering of the land that was promised to them. Gentiles were never scatted as the Jews were, but we, as Christ followers, do live in this world as citizens of heaven.

 

[Nathan]

....what happens if you die on the day you're no abiding in Christ?

Do you believe that abiding is working on doing something?

I just got back from 'abiding' at the ocean. It was not a matter of me doing something while I was there - I was simply there.

However, I left the ocean. I purposefully drove 12 hours in my car away from there - I am no longer abiding at the ocean.

If you leave Christ, and you die not abiding in Him, then you definitely will not spend eternity with Him.

 

[Cygnus]

That's a flat out lie. Either you are purposefully lying, or you honestly do not know what endurance is.

Endurance is possible and it's told that we should. To make people think they cannot is working against what Christ said and the Apostles taught.

Matthew 10:22 (ESV)
and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 13:21 (ESV)
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Matthew 24:13 (ESV)
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13 (ESV)
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John 6:27 (ESV)
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.

Your post might mean something to me....if you quoted the Matt verses in context. But you didn't.

How does you theology work? Is God going to put all your successful endurances on one side of a scale and your failures on the other?

 

[Cygnus]

If you leave Christ, and you die not abiding in Him, then you definitely will not spend eternity with Him.

And there lies your problem. You as wells me...and every other christian doesn't always abide.

 

[Cygnus]

hello Cygnus, dirtfarmer here

Even though we agree on many doctrine, I have to disagree that "the exiles were simple saved people living as strangers in a different land. The exiles were Jews that were God's earthly people that were scattered by the conquering of the land that was promised to them. Gentiles were never scatted as the Jews were, but we, as Christ followers, do live in this world as citizens of heaven.

I thought that went without saying....But, thanks for making it more precise.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I thought that went without saying....But, thanks for making it more precise.

hello Cygnus, dirtfarmer here

I am sometimes a little dense. I guess I have been on forums too much. There are those that will call you out if you don't quote the complete verse.

 

[Nathan]

Your post might mean something to me....if you quoted the Matt verses in context. But you didn't.

How does you theology work? Is God going to put all your successful endurances on one side of a scale and your failures on the other?

And there lies your problem. You as wells me...and every other christian doesn't always abide.

You cannot tell me if I abide or not. That's a false accusation. I do abide in Christ. In my younger years I might have been thrown off by someone stating I cannot, I hope that your statement does not put a stumbling block in front of those who are young in the faith.

You can read the verses in their context if you like, I never meant for them to be taken from them. They state exactly what Christ meant. The one who endures to the end will be saved.

I have no successes. There is nothing of mine that is good to be put on the opposite side of the beams of justice. It is Christ alone who puts His righteousness on the beams and declares me righteous before God.

So to answer your question, the person who trusts in his own deed - however great or small - to balance the beam, will come up wanting in the sight of God. Some actually believe that their 'work' of belief will be placed on the "good" side and outweigh all the other stuff on the "bad" side.

Christ tells of people who will stand before Him and think they have a right to the kingdom based on something they have done. He will cast out every person not found in Him.

Only Christ can be put on the good side of the scales. If you are not in Him, then the scales of Gods justice will tip in judgement on you.

Acts 17
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

Repentance is turning from yourself to Christ. If you turn away from Christ back to yourself then you are disobeying Gods command. You will be judged outside of Him if you are found outside of Him because you turned away. Only in Him will you be judged on His righteousness.

Philippians 3
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

[ezra]

It is God who opens our hearts. Not us.

your more than welcome to your calvinist belief .. but i don,t buy it one is not created by God to be sent to hell.

 

[Cygnus]

You cannot tell me if I abide or not. That's a false accusation. I do abide in Christ. In my younger years I might have been thrown off by someone stating I cannot, I hope that your statement does not put a stumbling block in front of those who are young in the faith.

Are you telling me you abide perfectly 100% of the time?

 

[Cygnus]

your more than welcome to your calvinist belief .. but i don,t buy it one is not created by God to be sent to hell.

Are you saying all men don't sin and all men don't fall short of Gods glory?

 

[Nathan]

Are you telling me you abide perfectly 100% of the time?

Abide perfectly? What does that mean?

 

[Cygnus]

Abide perfectly? What does that mean?

I believe it to be the theology you're presenting.
If you don't abide....your doomed.
So, I accused you, me and every christian of not always abiding. It appears your theology has a bit of a problem concerning ones eternal salvation.
One day your in, the next day your out........

 

[Nathan]

I believe it to be the theology you're presenting.
If you don't abide....your doomed.
So, I accused you, me and every christian of not always abiding. It appears your theology has a bit of a problem concerning ones eternal salvation.
One day your in, the next day your out........

I never stated it as such. Another false accusation and slander. The Bible has a word for such that do this.

If you don't abide you will be judged based on your own righteousness.

1 John 2
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made to us-eternal life.

You must abide in Christ. If you do not then you do not have the Son, the Father, or eternal life.

You are the one putting a qualification on it, not me. There is no quality to abiding that is commanded for salvation. It's a state, you are either abiding or you are not.

The reason you do not understand is because you seem to think it's up to the individual to come into Christ. You are placed in Christ by God so you cannot boast. God gives you the choice to believe or deny Christ. If you choose to believe, and abide in that belief, you have life.

If you choose to deny, and turn to abide somewhere else, then you do not have life.

Psalm 91:1 (ESV)
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.

 

[Cygnus]

I never stated it as such. Another false accusation and slander. The Bible has a word for such that do this.

If you don't abide you will be judged based on your own righteousness.

1 John 2
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made to us-eternal life.

You must abide in Christ. If you do not then you do not have the Son, the Father, or eternal life.

You are the one putting a qualification on it, not me. There is no quality to abiding that is commanded for salvation. It's a state, you are either abiding or you are not.

The reason you do not understand is because you seem to think it's up to the individual to come into Christ. You are placed in Christ by God so you cannot boast. God gives you the choice to believe or deny Christ. If you choose to believe, and abide in that belief, you have life.

If you choose to deny, and turn to abide somewhere else, then you do not have life.

Psalm 91:1 (ESV)
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.

Welp, you can go on trying to maintain your eternal life...but, I don't have to. Christ Jesus secured it for me already.

....did you know overtime you sin.....you are not abiding in Christ?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

You say that 'salvation isn't forced'. Then, what do you think unconditional election is?

Salvation isn't forced.

You are subtle in accusing me of teaching that people are saved 'by their own effort' and persevere by their own effort or 'lose their salvation'. That's a false view of what I believe.

Settle down. I accused you of nothing. I responded directly to the issue and the logical end of your position. If people can lose salvation by what they do or don't do, then they can keep it by what they do and don't do. That human effort and there's no way to slice it any differently. The result of such thinking is people tend to take their eyes off of Jesus and focus on their works.

I understand that Heb 3:12-15 teaches that brothers and sisters in Christ can allow 'an evil, unbelieving heart' to 'lead them to fall away from the living God' (v. 12 ESV). I'm inventing nothing. That's Scripture.

That verse in no way suggest unequivocally that he's addressing brothers and sisters in Christ.

To stop this from happening, what are other Christians to do? 'Exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today”, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin' (Heb 3:13 ESV). As long as we are on this earth, sin will tempt and deceive us and there is the potential of developing an 'evil, unbelieving heart' that may cause us to 'fall away from the living God'. Should this section of Scripture be cut out of the Bible?

No. It should be analyzed from within the Bible as a whole. One verse doe not a doctrine make.

Our biblical responsibility is to exhort other believers while we have the opportunity to avoid the deceitfulness of sin and cause them to develop evil, unbelieving hearts. Caring for one another in the faith is critical for continuing growth as believers.

I agree. Iron sharpens Iron.

You stated: 'Since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine'. That's not what Heb 3:12-15 (ESV) teaches. Those people were 'brothers and sisters' in Christ - Christians - but they had to be warned about the danger of developing an evil, unbelieving heart through the deceitfulness of sin. Not a word was stated here about their faith not being genuine.

I don't agree. What's important is not what one thinks of Heb 3 but what the whole council of God reveals.

Seems like your presuppositions are clouding your exegesis of Heb 3:12-15 that I have raised in this thread.

Or it's clouded yours.

I did notice that you left out referring to Acts 16:30-31 and the encounter of Paul, Silas and the Philippian jailer.

I probably left a lot of verses out. What? You want a NT commentary from PZ?
Oz[/QUOTE]

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

Eternal security is not guaranteed because there are warning passages that demonstrate the possibility of falling away from the faith (Heb 3:12-15; 6:4-6; 10:35-39; 1 Tim 1:19).

However, the saints of God are those who persevere to the end of life. 'Perseverance of the saints' is a biblical doctrine (Matt 24:13 ESV), not eternal security or once-saved-always-saved. Read the context in Matt 24:9-14 (ESV) to see examples of many falling away in the last of the last days. They cannot fall away from something they never had.

Oz

If the Bible didn't have other pesky verses that indicate to me (as well as biblical scholars) that once genuine faith in Christ comes into a believer's life, there's a natural process of growth and maturity to follow. And the promise of God that we will be kept. We will not be lost. Not if, but since. Looking at the whole of Scripture, I can find no other way to conclude that a true believer will remain in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.