Justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

[francisdesales]

God is pleased with men seeking Him out in faith. There is no need to pretend that man, even with the Spirit of God, CANNOT seek out God and have faith in Him and love his fellow neighbor. There have always been men like this, as a result of God's Spirit vivifying men - all made possible by Christ's WORK on the cross. At the end of the day, JESUS'S "faith" will not be judged if a man does not attain eternal life. The gift is made available, and those who utilize it will be rewarded with heaven.

No, it's not with God's help that we can be just in His eyes.

The Bible speaks of synergy between God and man. Your "total depravity" scheme doesn't allow you to see what the Bible speaks of. God's graces are NOT irresistible, thus, there is an element of cooperation. IF God's grace was irresistible, and if God desires ALL men to be saved, then we have a contradiction, since all men are not saved, and you desire to attribute salvation ENTIRELY to God - while in reality, God allows men the free will to choose Him with His aid.

It is by Christ living in us that we are counted righteous in God's eyes.

God working in us enables us to do righteous things, to have faith, for example. It is by THIS faith that we are judged righteous in God's eyes. Again, total depravity throws a blanket over what the Bible teaches.

Throughout, MAN is told to follow God. God is not told to MAKE man to follow God!!! According to YOU, God demands something that men cannot POSSIBLY do!!! That is a just God????

God looks at Christ and sees righteousness.

No, the bible doesn't say that. More traditions of men that move people from the Word. Teachings that tickle the ear...

The bible says that God sees ABRAHAM'S faith and judges him to be righteous. Again, the "pretend covering" idea. God declares something is so, but it is not really so???

Are you calling God a liar when he states that ABRAHAM is just (rather than seeing Jesus, so thus, Abraham is not really righteous?)

We can never become righteous enough for a righteous God.

WHO says we have to be perfect to be righteous??? Again, any Scriptures for this? We are under Grace, not the Law!!! As God's children and by the work of Christ on the cross, we are reconciled to God. Thus, God can look at Abraham and call his Spirit-moved faith to be righteous "enough". There is no need to equal God in righteousness to enter the Kingdom, there is no Biblical statement that says this. That is another Protestant invention, thus, the idea that only Christ's righteousness in us is seen by God.

It's only as we deny self and allow Christ to live in us ....

No disagreements there, Christ must abide in us, since without Him, we cannot be moved to do works of righteousness, and thus, BE righteous.

through His imputed righteousness we are enabled to enter through the veil and gain access to God.
We have His robe of righteousness as our covering. I know how much you hate that, but it's the truth, nonetheless.

It is not the truth, it is an invention that doesn't take into account what God does in the New Creation.

Jesus' own words state that OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS must be of a certain quality. OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. ABRAHAM is justified by HIS righteousness, moved by God.

I would say that Luther's idea of anthropology is the main force behind this error that you preach. It states that man is totally depraved, even though God EXPECTS and DEMANDS man to BE righteous - He gives graces for that purpose!

There is no purpose in sanctifying mankind IF God ONLY LOOKS AT JESUS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That is something you cannot escape and continue to ignore. You support a tradition of men in order to ignore the Word of God.

God judges MAN, not whether Jesus' righteousness was seen in an individual man!!! This would place the blame squarely on God for a man not being just!!!

 

[chestertonrules]

I've noticed there seems to be some confusion about whether we're justified before God by our faith or the faith of Christ.

What do you do with this? Throw it out?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

or this:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.â€a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

or this:


1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

 

[paulr1025]

Please francisdesales,

i implore you to NOT receive the liberal young and incomplete language of english as a final authority when it comes to the Word of God.

If you have time to post, please take the time to get to know the contextual value of the original language the Word of God was written in, as far as the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[francisdesales]

Please francisdesales,

i implore you to NOT receive the liberal young and incomplete language of english as a final authority when it comes to the Word of God.

Perhaps you were not privy to the very beginning of this discussion I had with GD, but I ALSO noted that the original Greek does NOT support "Faith OF Jesus", but "Faith IN Jesus". thanks for your "advise", duly noted...

I earlier stated to GD this, and GD admitted it, but he remains obstinante in his "knowledge" that the Greek is still not correctly rendering the Scriptures original "intent". This is purely eigesis, pure and simple. Someone has a theology, and then must change the Scriptures so that the beloved "theology" fits...

Other Scriptures unrelated clearly talk about the faith OF Abraham as found to be of justifying quality. There is no need to twist Scriptures around to change the object of which God finds justifying. Since some here believe in "total depravity", they must change Scriptures to read that God only sees Jesus behind the act of Abraham, when the Bible does not say that.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Please francisdesales,

i implore you to NOT receive the liberal young and incomplete language of english as a final authority when it comes to the Word of God.

Perhaps you were not privy to the very beginning of this discussion I had with GD, but I ALSO noted that the original Greek does NOT support "Faith OF Jesus", but "Faith IN Jesus". thanks for your "advise", duly noted...

I earlier stated to GD this, and GD admitted it, but he remains obstinante in his "knowledge" that the Greek is still not correctly rendering the Scriptures original "intent". This is purely eigesis, pure and simple. Someone has a theology, and then must change the Scriptures so that the beloved "theology" fits...

Other Scriptures unrelated clearly talk about the faith OF Abraham as found to be of justifying quality. There is no need to twist Scriptures around to change the object of which God finds justifying. Since some here believe in "total depravity", they must change Scriptures to read that God only sees Jesus behind the act of Abraham, when the Bible does not say that.

Regards

I admitted no such thing. I pointed out where the same Greek word is used in faith (of) Abraham and other scriptures, but the new translations changed it when it spoke of Christ. I also pointed out that Paul uses the faith of Christ and faith in Christ in the same sentence....for a reason. Even your old Catholic Bible had it translated correctly at one point in time. No, it's these new translations that have either deliberately or unintentionally changed the meaning of certain texts from how they were translated for years.

Some verses do speak of our faith in Christ. Some speak of the faith of Christ.
And Jesus is the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith. We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. As we look upon Him, His faith is imparted to us and we respond by believing in Him....He then is the object of our faith. If our wavering, small, inconsistant faith (while we were yet sinners) is what justifies us before God then it becomes a matter of our work. That goes against all of Scripture. Salvation is by grace...a free gift.

Who is there who would claim that Christ does not have faith? :crazy Apparently some do. The fact remains, Christ does have faith, and it was used correctly when the KJV used it as such. If you don't understand how Christ has faith, then you'd do well to keep reading translations that have taken away any mention of it.

Can we claim our faith justifies us before God?
Who has the righteousness to stand before God...Christ or man?
Who took our sin on the cross....Christ or man?
Who is the mediator between man and God?

And best of all....How did the righteous servant justify many if "our faith" justifies us?

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The Just shall live by faith...He did and it's by His faith that we are justified for He is the only Righteous One. It's as we tap into the source of righteousness and faith...hear the Word...touch the rock...look upon the serpent partake of His righteousness that our believing is accounted to us as righteousness.

Who shall say, "MY FAITH JUSTIFIES ME BEFORE GOD?"

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz ]


What do you do with this? Throw it out?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

or this:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.â€a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

or this:


1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

 

[glorydaz]

I've noticed there seems to be some confusion about whether we're justified before God by our faith or the faith of Christ.

What do you do with this? Throw it out?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

or this:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.â€a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

or this:


1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

I don't need to throw it out, but I have and can, once again, explain to you what these verses mean.

James 2,,,We are justified by works before men, and we are justified by faith before God.

Romans 2...We may seek glory and eternal life, but we will face the righteous judgment of God...where sin enters into the mix. You have to read this verse in context...which some refuse to do.

1 Peter 1...we will all give an account of our lives and be rewarded accordingly. We've already been told this..."Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." So we're told to obey our Father for He chastens those who are His and brings His rewards with Him. It's obviously not talking about being afraid we will lose our salvation.

People....We must read all of scripture in context and stop taking out verses that seem to say we'll be lost if we fail some test. Abraham believed the promises of God...I don't see too much of that these days.

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz James 2,,,We are justified by works before men, and we are justified by faith before God.

Romans 2...We may seek glory and eternal life, but we will face the righteous judgment of God...where sin enters into the mix. You have to read this verse in context...which some refuse to do.

1 Peter 1...we will all give an account of our lives and be rewarded accordingly. We've already been told this..."Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." So we're told to obey our Father for He chastens those who are His and brings His rewards with Him. It's obviously not talking about being afraid we will lose our salvation.

People....We must read all of scripture in context and stop taking out verses that seem to say we'll be lost if we fail some test. Abraham believed the promises of God...I don't see too much of that these days. [/quote]


You must add words to scripture, thus distorting the meaning, in order to force it to conform to your dogma.

The crystal clear words of scripture say that you are wrong. We will be judged for our actions. We can't do it without God's grace, but his grace is available to us all. We choose to accept it or reject it.

 

[francisdesales]

What do you do with this? Throw it out?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Exactly. That's what they do, throw out Scriptures or just ignore the context. We all know that Abraham was justified before God, not man, since James relates WHEN Abraham was justified, and no man was present to be justified in front of. Has a sola fideist actually read Genesis? It is just the typical text-twisting that we have grown accustomed to with those who defend the tradition of men known as "sola fide", clearly refuted by James AND Paul AND Jesus AND John AND Peter...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

People....We must read all of scripture in context and stop taking out verses that seem to say we'll be lost if we fail some test. Abraham believed the promises of God...I don't see too much of that these days.

Take your own advice, pal. When is Abraham justified? After Jesus had faith??? No, when ABRAHAM believed in God and trusted that God would provide another son in the event he killed Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham was justified in front of God, not man. The context that James refers to quite clearly states that it is GOD who states "NOW I KNOW", not an audience of men clapping that Abraham was justified that Jesus' faith was applied to Abraham.

Take your own advice and read the Scriptures in context, not trying to read sola fide into everything when the Bible LITERALLY says that sola fide is NOT salvific!

 

[MMarc]

People....We must read all of scripture in context and stop taking out verses that seem to say we'll be lost if we fail some test. Abraham believed the promises of God...I don't see too much of that these days.

Take your own advice, pal. When is Abraham justified? After Jesus had faith??? No, when ABRAHAM believed in God and trusted that God would provide another son in the event he killed Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham was justified in front of God, not man. The context that James refers to quite clearly states that it is GOD who states "NOW I KNOW", not an audience of men clapping that Abraham was justified that Jesus' faith was applied to Abraham.

Take your own advice and read the Scriptures in context, not trying to read sola fide into everything when the Bible LITERALLY says that sola fide is NOT salvific!

So then if I believe God, I am justified before God not man, not any man whatsover, whoever that man is right?

So if I don't believe in the doctrines of men given by any church then I am still justified before God.

Amen.

 

[chestertonrules]

So then if I believe God, I am justified before God not man, not any man whatsover, whoever that man is right?

So if I don't believe in the doctrines of men given by any church then I am still justified before God.

Amen.

John 15:10
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

 

[paulr1025]

Jesus never said "agree to disagree", He said to simply "kick the dust from our sandals" and move on.

This generation has ears, but will NOT hear, and eyes, but won't see.

Their hearts are hardened and do NOT understand the "kingdom of God" is within them, as it was Jesus of Nazareth.
No man enters the kingdom of God holding hands with Jesus, but by receiving Christ as He was offered.
A babe, first in the NT by Mary, when she said; "Let it be to me according to Your Word."
Not by my understanding, and i don't care what people will say, and Joseph may put me away, but God, i trust Your Word is perfect!
You on Your terms my God and my King!

You see friends, we must understand that Christ has been given to each of us as "the seed" in order for us to nurture, and feed the Christ Child within us the only thing He'll eat, The Word of God and DOING the will of the Father!
That is why Jesus told the pharisees; "The kingdom of God is within you!"
John the Baptist tried to make it clear in saying; "He must increase, but i "ego" must decrease.
Jesus made it clear in saying; "I have NOT come to DO MY WILL, but the will of the Father who sent me."

Unfortunately, Jesus for many has become an icon of Christianity, much like the cross has.
This is NOT what God intended for man.
Jesus came and died so that Christ could come and live, IN you and IN me.
Is it so hard to see that the Comforter, the Word, Faith, ALL of it is wrapped up in one word, that is the LAW of God....
AGAPE!

Paul said i die daily, as it is only IN our willingness to die, that Christ (the Light of the world) is seen through "us", because "we" OUR FLESH, and CARNAL MINDS, are the basket that covers the Light!

Man's preconceived notions of Who YHVH is and the carnal need to "comprehend" everything, but see the darkness (flesh) in unable to "comprehend" the "Light" (Christ, the Word of God, Faith, etc) because just as the spirit of the man only knows the man, so only the Spirit of God, knows God, and that is Christ IN YOU, the Hope of glory (shining or to make manifest)
It is Christ being fed and growing by the Word and by DOING the will of the Father that will transform "us" from "glory to glory" or by a much better definition (from bright to brighter)
Something God revealed to me when i started having these revelations that indeed are like honey upon realization, but bitter upon the need to DIE TO SELF, much like Ezekiel and John's scrolls, was that the most sinful woman in the world still has a glow on her face when she's pregnant, simply because Christ is the LIGHT given to ALL MEN, (every person) coming into the world.
The call it the pregnant woman glow, but it is actually the undefiled spirit given by God in the woman's womb!
So, Ecc 9 says; Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This is the [sinape] "mustard seed" of faith, the Lamp of God, and the Light of the World.
Man has continued for all this time in either his "worries" "opinion" and "reasoning", but the Word of God is given only by revelation, and only as God sees fit, and as we know.....
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Isa 28 makes it so clear, as does the story of Paul.
When i became a man Paul said; but he wasn't referring to him physically.
Paul was 3 years old when he came out of arabia, where he was fed by YHVH (taught by Christ), then for the next 14 years, he grew up as a "disciple of Jesus Christ" an "apostle" or (delegate) if you prefer!
But it wasn't until after that, he considered himself a man, and Isa 28 shows us why!
It says; the bed is too short to stretch out on.
It's made for the Child that so many of us refuse to LET grow!
The covering is too narrow.
Again, it's designed for the Child that so many of us refuse to LET grow!

Jesus says; whoever seeks, finds.
Where are "we" seeking?
Whoever knocks will have it opened.
Where are "we" knocking?
Whoever asks receives.
What is it "we" are asking for?
Not with fervent lips and a wicked heart (Pro 26)
But what requests are "we" truly LETTING be made known to God?

You see, the Word "LET" is like the word "IF" in the bible, and so often overlooked the same.

YHVH said; I set before you a blessing and a curse, YOU CHOOSE!

One last thing "ruakh" or "pneuma" both mean current of air, wind or breath, but they are also both ALWAYS used for the word "Spirit"
We must "LET" the Spirit of YHVH breath on the smoldering flax, by removing the "basket of self" or the light will NEVER shine, and at the end, when that little smoldering flax goes back to God who gave it, those who have disqualified themselves for the sake of pride, will say....
The harvest has passed, summer is ended and "we" are NOT saved!

Please, everyone take the kingdom of God by violently putting to death your members, including your tongue, and be willing to rebuke, encourage, reprove, exhort, and confess your faults one to another, for if you DO these things, Christ will abound IN you and live through you, as you present your body as a living sacrifice for His good pleasure, and at the end of this vapor, you will have found ETERNAL LIFE!

THIS IS WHY JAMES SAID; BE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY, DECEIVING YOURSELVES!
If Christ is growing IN us, our DOINGS will be evidence of that, as He lives by DOING the will of the Father!
Our dying, His doing!
Look at it this way.
He died for "us", now will "we" die (to self) for Him?

Agape,


paul



Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[francisdesales]

So if I don't believe in the doctrines of men given by any church then I am still justified before God.

Amen.

Or doctrines found in the Bible written by those same men???

Being just means obeying God. All that He commands, not just the stuff you like and toss aside the things you don't like.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus never said "agree to disagree", He said to simply "kick the dust from our sandals" and move on.

This generation has ears, but will NOT hear, and eyes, but won't see.

Their hearts are hardened and do NOT understand the "kingdom of God" is within them, as it was Jesus of Nazareth.
No man enters the kingdom of God holding hands with Jesus, but by receiving Christ as He was offered.
A babe, first in the NT by Mary, when she said; "Let it be to me according to Your Word."
Not by my understanding, and i don't care what people will say, and Joseph may put me away, but God, i trust Your Word is perfect!
You on Your terms my God and my King!

You see friends, we must understand that Christ has been given to each of us as "the seed" in order for us to nurture, and feed the Christ Child within us the only thing He'll eat, The Word of God and DOING the will of the Father!
That is why Jesus told the pharisees; "The kingdom of God is within you!"
John the Baptist tried to make it clear in saying; "He must increase, but i "ego" must decrease.
Jesus made it clear in saying; "I have NOT come to DO MY WILL, but the will of the Father who sent me."

Unfortunately, Jesus for many has become an icon of Christianity, much like the cross has.
This is NOT what God intended for man.
Jesus came and died so that Christ could come and live, IN you and IN me.
Is it so hard to see that the Comforter, the Word, Faith, ALL of it is wrapped up in one word, that is the LAW of God....
AGAPE!

Paul said i die daily, as it is only IN our willingness to die, that Christ (the Light of the world) is seen through "us", because "we" OUR FLESH, and CARNAL MINDS, are the basket that covers the Light!

Man's preconceived notions of Who YHVH is and the carnal need to "comprehend" everything, but see the darkness (flesh) in unable to "comprehend" the "Light" (Christ, the Word of God, Faith, etc) because just as the spirit of the man only knows the man, so only the Spirit of God, knows God, and that is Christ IN YOU, the Hope of glory (shining or to make manifest)
It is Christ being fed and growing by the Word and by DOING the will of the Father that will transform "us" from "glory to glory" or by a much better definition (from bright to brighter)
Something God revealed to me when i started having these revelations that indeed are like honey upon realization, but bitter upon the need to DIE TO SELF, much like Ezekiel and John's scrolls, was that the most sinful woman in the world still has a glow on her face when she's pregnant, simply because Christ is the LIGHT given to ALL MEN, (every person) coming into the world.
The call it the pregnant woman glow, but it is actually the undefiled spirit given by God in the woman's womb!
So, Ecc 9 says; Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This is the [sinape] "mustard seed" of faith, the Lamp of God, and the Light of the World.
Man has continued for all this time in either his "worries" "opinion" and "reasoning", but the Word of God is given only by revelation, and only as God sees fit, and as we know.....
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Isa 28 makes it so clear, as does the story of Paul.
When i became a man Paul said; but he wasn't referring to him physically.
Paul was 3 years old when he came out of arabia, where he was fed by YHVH (taught by Christ), then for the next 14 years, he grew up as a "disciple of Jesus Christ" an "apostle" or (delegate) if you prefer!
But it wasn't until after that, he considered himself a man, and Isa 28 shows us why!
It says; the bed is too short to stretch out on.
It's made for the Child that so many of us refuse to LET grow!
The covering is too narrow.
Again, it's designed for the Child that so many of us refuse to LET grow!

Jesus says; whoever seeks, finds.
Where are "we" seeking?
Whoever knocks will have it opened.
Where are "we" knocking?
Whoever asks receives.
What is it "we" are asking for?
Not with fervent lips and a wicked heart (Pro 26)
But what requests are "we" truly LETTING be made known to God?

You see, the Word "LET" is like the word "IF" in the bible, and so often overlooked the same.

YHVH said; I set before you a blessing and a curse, YOU CHOOSE!

One last thing "ruakh" or "pneuma" both mean current of air, wind or breath, but they are also both ALWAYS used for the word "Spirit"
We must "LET" the Spirit of YHVH breath on the smoldering flax, by removing the "basket of self" or the light will NEVER shine, and at the end, when that little smoldering flax goes back to God who gave it, those who have disqualified themselves for the sake of pride, will say....
The harvest has passed, summer is ended and "we" are NOT saved!

Please, everyone take the kingdom of God by violently putting to death your members, including your tongue, and be willing to rebuke, encourage, reprove, exhort, and confess your faults one to another, for if you DO these things, Christ will abound IN you and live through you, as you present your body as a living sacrifice for His good pleasure, and at the end of this vapor, you will have found ETERNAL LIFE!

THIS IS WHY JAMES SAID; BE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY, DECEIVING YOURSELVES!
If Christ is growing IN us, our DOINGS will be evidence of that, as He lives by DOING the will of the Father!
Our dying, His doing!
Look at it this way.
He died for "us", now will "we" die (to self) for Him?

Agape,


paul



Grace + Truth = AGAPE

I think I agree with the gist of your post, it rambles a bit, but your last paragraph makes perfect sense to me.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

What do you do with this? Throw it out?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Exactly. That's what they do, throw out Scriptures or just ignore the context. We all know that Abraham was justified before God, not man, since James relates WHEN Abraham was justified, and no man was present to be justified in front of. Has a sola fideist actually read Genesis? It is just the typical text-twisting that we have grown accustomed to with those who defend the tradition of men known as "sola fide", clearly refuted by James AND Paul AND Jesus AND John AND Peter...

Regards

Maybe you should actually read Genesis and you'll see when Abraham was justified. He was justified unto God when he believed the promises..(believing is what justified him - by partaking of Christ's faith)....not when he offered up Isaac. He had whereof to glory, but not before God. Before whom, then? Before man. Offering up Isaac was the outward manifestation of the faith he received when he believed...the act that man could talk about and write about. It doesn't matter than no one else was there...the story got out. Man couldn't see if Abraham actually believed, but God could. Man had to look at what Abraham did...which is exactly what James is talking about.

 

[glorydaz]

People....We must read all of scripture in context and stop taking out verses that seem to say we'll be lost if we fail some test. Abraham believed the promises of God...I don't see too much of that these days.

Take your own advice, pal. When is Abraham justified? After Jesus had faith??? No, when ABRAHAM believed in God and trusted that God would provide another son in the event he killed Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham was justified in front of God, not man. The context that James refers to quite clearly states that it is GOD who states "NOW I KNOW", not an audience of men clapping that Abraham was justified that Jesus' faith was applied to Abraham.

Take your own advice and read the Scriptures in context, not trying to read sola fide into everything when the Bible LITERALLY says that sola fide is NOT salvific!

You're wrong about that....Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness when he was given the promises by God before Isaac was even born.

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What James is referring to is when Abraham actually offered up Isaac. That was the work man could see...a manifestation of the faith that God saw when Abraham believed. God did not have to wait to see Abraham's obedience...he knew what Abraham would do. This, "Now I see" from God isn't because it was a mystery to God...it was to point out that a visible sign of Abraham's belief had been shown forth. Without the faith of Christ, and, yes, Christ has had faith from the beginning...the Plan of Redemption had already been laid, then Abraham would have never had the grace to believe any promises from God.

 

[chestertonrules]

[ What James is referring to is when Abraham actually offered up Isaac. That was the work man could see...a manifestation of the faith that God saw when Abraham believed. God did not have to wait to see Abraham's obedience...he knew what Abraham would do. This, "Now I see" from God isn't because it was a mystery to God...it was to point out that a visible sign of Abraham's belief had been shown forth. Without the faith of Christ, and, yes, Christ has had faith from the beginning...the Plan of Redemption had already been laid, then Abraham would have never had the grace to believe any promises from God.

Faith without obedience is dead faith and it will not save you.

Abraham's faith was made effective by his actions.

God reaches out and touches us by his grace. This initial act of grace cannot be merited.

However, once God has touched our lives we have a choice(s) to make. Pick up our cross and follow or drop our plow and go home.

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe you should actually read Genesis and you'll see when Abraham was justified. He was justified unto God when he believed the promises..(believing is what justified him - by partaking of Christ's faith)....not when he offered up Isaac.

You are hilarious. I won't return your insult, I'll just let the bible speak for me...

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:20-21

If you would have stuck to the context we were earlier discussing, whether Abraham was justified before man or God according to James, you would have picked up on this.

He had whereof to glory, but not before God. Before whom, then? Before man. Offering up Isaac was the outward manifestation of the faith he received when he believed...the act that man could talk about and write about.

In your dreams.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. Gen 22:12

It doesn't matter than no one else was there...the story got out.

Spoken by someone in total denial - or ignorant about the Bible.

James said Abraham was declared just AT THE ALTAR, not after he told the story!!!

Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar

Man couldn't see if Abraham actually believed, but God could.

No kiddin'. Now, put one and one together... I am making this as simple as possible, because I realize it must be difficult to see sola fide totally dismantled in such a fashion...

Abraham was justified before God - by faith working and made visible. (Jesus' faith is not mentioned by Genesis or James, that's an un-biblical notion...)

It all fits together. Men are not justified by faith alone. Why not just follow what the Scriptures say, rather than doing Scriptural gymnastics that contradict other parts of Scriptures, just to maintain the idol of sola fide???

 

[francisdesales]

Take your own advice, pal. When is Abraham justified? After Jesus had faith??? No, when ABRAHAM believed in God and trusted that God would provide another son in the event he killed Isaac as God commanded.

Abraham was justified in front of God, not man. The context that James refers to quite clearly states that it is GOD who states "NOW I KNOW", not an audience of men clapping that Abraham was justified that Jesus' faith was applied to Abraham.

Take your own advice and read the Scriptures in context, not trying to read sola fide into everything when the Bible LITERALLY says that sola fide is NOT salvific!

You're wrong about that....Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness when he was given the promises by God before Isaac was even born. Gen. 15:5-6

GD, come on, the NT states at LEAST THREE times where Abraham was considered just/righteous. Romans, James and Hebrews. All were different events in Abraham/Abram's life. Justification is an ongoing process, not just a "once and your done forever" consideration. As we walk from faith to faith, we are considered just in God's eyes. And perfection is not required.

James is obviously not interested in being seen as just before man's eyes. It should be QUITE OBVIOUS that he disconnects himself from that idea in the verses of chapter 2 immediately preceding his discussion on faith alone does not save. His POINT, is that calling yourself just while not supporting the poor was not "faith" that saved. Thus, James would certainly not provide an event (Abraham) that would DISPROVE his point!!!

It is quite simple, but your attempts to salvage a tradition of men is keeping you from seeing the Word of God.